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Białowieża National Park in Poland


gumishu 12 | 6,009
15 Sep 2017 #91
The forest has survived for a long time. Only man can kill it.

first of all these were not pictures from the National Park of Białowieża aka strict reserve
secondly milions of square kilometers of spruce forests were wiped out in Germany by the bark beetle - ESPECIALLY the national parks - they look like a desert at the moment
Roger5 1 | 1,455
15 Sep 2017 #92
milions of square kilometers of spruce forests were wiped out in Germany

Wow, that's a lot. Especially when you consider that Germany has an area of 357 021 KM2
gumishu 12 | 6,009
15 Sep 2017 #93
I might have exaggerated a bit, yes - maybe I thought hectares
G (undercover)
15 Sep 2017 #94
Let's say that the Wawel castle is going to collapse - you've got dudes that want to fix it and those who say that not a single brick should be removed, keep it all original - If it's going to fall apart, let it be. That's the choice here. Personally I'm for removing the sick trees to protect the rest. Some dudes disagree... and that's it, the rest is just the black PR action of the Belgium fascists and their agents of influence in Polish politics/media.
mafketis 35 | 11,230
15 Sep 2017 #95
Let's say that the Wawel castle is going to collapse - .... That's the choice here

No, the choice is those who would say "let's do what we can to save it and preserve it in its traditional form vs PiS scamsters who say "it's useless to try to do maintenance, let's just dismantale it and sell all those bricks"

What Szyszko is doing is _only_ about lining his and his cronies' pockets.

Remember, he doesn't even think it's a special forest, it's just trees to turn into lumber to go into his bank account(s).
cms 9 | 1,255
15 Sep 2017 #96
G - as per my previous post please supply a list of recognised scientific bodies that support the logging.

I have already provided a list of bodies that have nothing to do with Brussels but oppose the logging. A long list of Polish conservation bodies could be added to that.
Ironside 51 | 11,337
15 Sep 2017 #97
What Szyszko is doing is _only_ about lining his and his cronies' pockets.

You saying that without any evidence and without having any clue about foresting.

I checked up few facts and I can dispel few myths here. First it is not a primeval forest in the sense that people were not interfering there at all.

In fact the Belowieza FOREST has been used by people quite extensively in the 16th century.
During the WWI Germans almost destroyed it (cut down a large area of the today forest) had been saved due to effort and activity of Poles.

Also from 1948 to 2011 trees has been cut down there all the time. Not on industrial scale true but it wasn't as some claim untouched by a human hand.

That some info as opposite to opinions. I still don't know what to think about it.
Braveheart16 18 | 286
15 Sep 2017 #98
Ironside

....I checked up few facts and I can dispel few myths here. First it is not a primeval forest in the sense that people were not interfering there at all

Please just get your facts from the people who know...maybe try Unesco who I would guess have a reason for declaring the forest a world heritage site..It doesn't matter who did what to who and when....what's important is what is happening now and how wrong it all is.....basically illegal logging which is being sold off to various companies or whatever.....this nonsense of an excuse by Szyszko that it is now a health and safety issue for the public really smells of someone who is running scared and trying to justify his decision...he is just a politician who probably won't last for much longer...they are 10 a penny....what is more important is the long term position concerning the Belowieza forest and how it will continue to provide tourism with a real destination and special memories.....The law is quite simple and the EU will not leave this alone.....they will continue to debate Polands refusal to stop logging in a Unesco world heritage site.....once a tree is felled that's it....the tree no longer lives and any animals/insects will be disrupted....all this for the sake of money...how sad and narrow minded....not really the thoughts of a forward looking political party...more of thoughts of a dinosaur group of people who appear to have captured votes through issuing 500 zlotys every month to every family who has a second baby.....incredible....it is so transparent.....and fake....
dolnoslask 6 | 3,072
15 Sep 2017 #99
issuing 500 zlotys every month to every family who has a second baby.

Smarter Idea than having to import migrants (and the odd terrorist) to support a dwindling native population like germany lol.

Hey If you don't like it then popoff back to blighty, and take your chances , I suggest you don't use the tube or go to any other venues where there are large crowds. don't forget to constantly look over your shoulder just in case.
CasualObserver
15 Sep 2017 #100
Let's say that the Wawel castle is going to collapse

Completely the wrong comparison. Wawel castle was built FROM nature, not BY it. So, of course, you put the bricks back. However, Bialowieza is like a mountain - built by nature, maintained by nature, never relied on the hand of man. If rocks fall off it, we don't put them back on the top! If water flows down a river, we don't scoop it back up and put it back upstream - it takes of that by itself, you see. Just like Bialowieza has looked after itself. If you start adding rocks and concrete to the top of the mountain, becuase that how *you* think it should look, it's no longer wild nature, it's man-made.
CasualObserver
15 Sep 2017 #101
For Ironside.

1. Here is a letter from 150 international forest scientists, who write to Szyszko to ask him to stop the logging. These are the top people in the World in the science of forestry and forest biology, all completely independent (i.e. not employed by Szyszko in Polish forestry, nor involved with any Polish political party, nor the EU):

nationalpark-bayerischer-wald.de/nationalpark/forschung/conference_2017/letter_to_prof_jan_szyszko/index.htm

2. Here is a letter against logging from the heads of the Polish Academy of Sciences - Poland's top scientific experts (non-political), many of whom study in the forest:

ilovebialowieza.com/EN_%20PolishAcademyofScience_statement.pdf

3. Here is a letter against logging from the State Council for Nature Conservation - part of Szyszko's own Ministry dept:

ilovebialowieza.com/StateCouncilOfEnviProtection_Statement.pdf

These are all independent, expert voices from inside and outside of Poland. These are the top forest and science experts in Europe and the World. And they all oppose the logging.

These are the people who know about this stuff. They have nothing to gain from saying this (some might even lose), but they make these statements because they feel that the voice of science should be heard above the politics.

Will you listen to these scientists? Or will you listen to Szyszko and his employees who are making the money from cutting the trees?
mafketis 35 | 11,230
15 Sep 2017 #102
In fact the Belowieza FOREST has been used by people quite extensively in the 16th century.

So you're infavor of clearcutting the whole thing and turning it into a tree farm. noted.

a letter against logging from the heads of the Polish Academy of Sciences - Poland's top scientific experts (non-political), many of whom study in the forest:

Ironside don't give a rat's a$$ about what happens to some trees.

Will you listen to these scientists? Or will you listen to Szyszko

He's made his choice. He's swallowing the PiS party line, even repeating party slogans (like 'total opposition) like a good party loyalist.
G (undercover)
15 Sep 2017 #103
However, Bialowieza is like a mountain - built by nature

So what about endangered species of animals ? Do WWF, Greepeace and all think it would be cool to allow wolves or lions to eat the some rare antilopes to the last one ?
G (undercover)
15 Sep 2017 #104
He's swallowing the PiS party line

Yawn... Let's be honest, the number of people who have enough knowledge to objectively assess what's going on in that forest is likely around a few hundred people and I doubt any of them is a PF member. It's you and your kind that take the party (PO/N/KOD/EU fascists/...) line and spread hysterical nonsense without any clue about the issue. Personally I've got no idea what's going on there but seeing the same "the sky is falling !!!111" hysterical nonsense from the same dicks that have proven to be cheap propagandists so many times, I have serious doubts anything they are saying about this situation is true.

The whole concept that Szyszko wants to destroy Białowieża to sell some wood... well, it makes about as much sense as the Illuminati conspiracy theories.
mafketis 35 | 11,230
15 Sep 2017 #105
The whole concept that Szyszko wants to destroy Białowieża to sell some wood... well,

it's the simplest and most elegant explanation for what's going on...
dolnoslask 6 | 3,072
15 Sep 2017 #106
destroy Białowieża to sell some wood

Yeah its the Polish master plan to make it a world super power lol , as for the the experts they can never decide if butter is good or bad for you, time will tell who is wrong or right.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
15 Sep 2017 #107
it's the simplest and most elegant explanation for what's going on...

If it wasn't about the profits from the wood, why would they be cutting down healthy and valuable trees?

Personally I've got no idea what's going on there

Yes, as with many other Polish topics.

The whole concept that Szyszko wants to destroy Białowieża to sell some wood... well, it makes about as much sense as the Illuminati conspiracy theories.

So you think it's quite impossible for a Polish politician to be supporting something for personal gain?

I mean, Greggy... are you that naive that you think that this isn't about money? If it was genuinely about the forest, then they wouldn't need all the heavy machinery and all the rest of it. They'd cut the diseased trees down and invite the locals to come and take as much diseased wood as they want.

I will never understand why PiS supporters so blindly support the Party stealing all they can.
CasualObserver
16 Sep 2017 #108
Do WWF, Greepeace and all think it would be cool to allow wolves or lions to eat the some rare antilopes to the last one ?

WTF? You do know that Wolves and Lions are also rare and endangered, right? But basic ecology shows that if an antelope is RARE then it will be RARELY killed by predators, because they will RARELY find it, and instead more commonly eat more common prey. Simple, basic science.

In Bialowieza, the bark beetles come in cycles. They kill a lot of spruces, the trees die, they are replaced by other trees in a natural process by the forest itself. he bark beetle then becomes rarer (fewer spruces), so new spruces are able to grow. Had happened like that for centuries. There is no need for foresters to cut down trees, as they fall down by themselves (as trees eventually do, and provide habitats for deadwood specialists). No need for to replant them, as trees can plant themselves too, you know! So the forest is a naturally regenerating system. However, trees don't naturally turn themsevles into roof beams, firewood and pallets, so it needs Szyszko to do that, and put the money in his pocket and that of his friends who own wood processing factories. However, Poland is already full of plantation trees that are planted and grown specifically for that purpose. And Szyszko wants to turn the last natural forest into the same thing - a timber factory. Meanwhile he kills the tourist and hospitality industry, and destroys Poland's reputation.
Roger5 1 | 1,455
16 Sep 2017 #109
To those who say, "You're not a biologist so your opinion is worthless," I say, OK, then you should no longer post on anything other than your field of expertise. If I had a serious illness, I'd consult a doctor, maybe two or three. If they all gave the same diagnosis, I'd be inclined to believe them, especially if they had no vested interest or possibility to make money from me. In the case of the eastern forest, there is broad consensus from the experts. This should not be a party political issue. The scientists would be just as angry if PO were in power and doing the same.

I have cooperated with several institutes in Bialowieza for nearly twenty years, and have checked dozens of academic papers for the scientists working there. I'm no expert, but I do know that the current logging has little basis in science. The biologists working in the forest are poorly paid yet highy dedicated people who know what they are talking about. Yes, I listen to them rather than people who know nothing.
Ironside 51 | 11,337
16 Sep 2017 #110
So you're infavor of clearcutting the whole thing and turning it into a tree farm. noted.

They are not doing that and don't plan to do it.

Will you listen to these scientists?

Scientist's views are divided on this. There is no consensus - so ..., UNESCO is about some legal issues not about rights and wrongs of logging.

The bottom line s that if they really are just logging for money and Bialowieza Forest become a meadow(which doesn't make sense they could find the same trees in other parts of the state forest)they'll never win another election.

You're not a biologist so your opinion is worthless

No your opinion is just your opinion.
You don't make any argument or charm us with a logical chain of reasoning to swoop us into your way of thinking. You repeat what you heard from others and you say that you believe them - fair enough. You do - other don't. No a big deal so stop crying.
jon357 71 | 20,075
17 Sep 2017 #111
Scientist's views are divided on this.

A 99% - 1% divide, maybe...
Braveheart16 18 | 286
17 Sep 2017 #112
Ironside.....

The bottom line s that if they really are just logging for money and Bialowieza Forest become a meadow(which doesn't make sense they could find the same trees in other parts of the state forest)they'll never win another election.

I think the bottom line is that they are keen to continue logging for money in Białowieża Forest for as long as it takes or until the EU start imposing large fines on Poland for challenging existing law. I don't think that the PIS are so short sighted to allow the forest to become a meadow but will in time have sold enough of the trees for Szyszko, his friends in the forest industry and anyone else who will benefit, to line their pockets and prepare for retirement. PIS will pull out of this logging fiasco at a convenient moment to appease the voters and the EU. Of course by then extensive damage will have been caused to the forest. As for the idea that if they are just logging for money and could find the same trees in other parts of the state forest to cut down instead.....yes they could do that and probably do, but in addition to what they are already doing to Białowieża Forest....greed has no limits.
cms 9 | 1,255
17 Sep 2017 #113
If scientific opinion is divided then please provide a list of scientific bodies that support the logging and support the view that it is not a primeval forest or a natural ecosystem.

And of course UNESCO is a scientific body - the S stands for Scientific. It employs many scientists.
Ironside 51 | 11,337
17 Sep 2017 #114
If scientific opinion is divided then please provide a list of scientific bodies that support the logging and support the view that it is not a primeval forest or a natural ecosystem.

As soon as the Polish gov. will make me an offer that would make worthwhile for me to spend my time defending their polices on line. Until this time came, you do it yourself, let me give you a tip- one of those S-entist is the minister in question himself.

And of course UNESCO is a scientific body - the S stands for Scientific. It employs many scientists

So does gov.

for Szyszko, his friends in the forest industry and anyone else who will benefit, to line their pockets

Maybe but the system of gov in Poland is such that they have the right to cut down trees in the BF and that is the bottom line.
G (undercover)
17 Sep 2017 #115
WTF? You do know that Wolves and Lions are also rare and endangered, right?

There are still thousands of them. Ever heard about Żubry ? At one point there were as few as 50 of them. They got locked and weren't allowed to live freely until human made reproduction project delivered good results and the population rose to hundreds. Now there's +1000 of them living freely in Poland alone but still they are closely monitored and often get food delivered in winter etc. I guess according to eco nazis like you, that's all wrong and they should have been allowed to die out.

I mean, Greggy... are you that naive that you think that this isn't about money?

Dudi, Szyszko is in charge of the institution running projects worth billions annually. If he wanted to steal any money, he's got a 1000 less "in your face" opportunities.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
17 Sep 2017 #116
Who said he was the one personally profiting? Don't you think he has friends, one of which owns the local wood processing facility?
mafketis 35 | 11,230
17 Sep 2017 #117
Szyszko is in charge of the institution running projects worth billions annually. If he wanted to steal any money,

I think it's part venal greed (motivating about 64 % of all PiS projects) and part of it is ideological. He's an instrumentalist that sees any kind of nature as only having economic value. He's against the very idea of forests that aren't producing income (and tourist income doesn't count).
cms 9 | 1,255
17 Sep 2017 #118
@Ironside - you can ask Polonius the going rate for defending the indefensible - might be a lot as he is clearly enjoying some late Autumn sunshine somewhere nice - maybe a sign that he has been told to get some rest before they drop some really big brainwave on the country.

If opinion was split 50/50 then surely it would take less than 2 minutes to google a list of credible scientific bodies that say logging is a good idea and that it is not a primeval forest.

Szyszko is not a scientific body - in fact all such conservation bodies in Poland including some of his own staff disagree with his approach.
Ironside 51 | 11,337
17 Sep 2017 #119
you can ask Polonius the going rate for defending the indefensible

Dude, Polonius is POL-AM over 70' years old. Chillax. Some people have a different point of view and quite a lot of them voted PiS. If you don't like it more to Russia, North Korea or SA.

If opinion was split 50/50 then surely it would take less than 2 minutes to google a list of credible scientific bodies

Credible - what credible, bodies- more oft or not have some political agenda.
I thought we are talking scientist not some institutions that you would have to certify as credible. Let me hazard a guess - credible would be those that support your point of view?

I don't know, I wasn't looking, as I said do it yourself. Do you even know what to look for?

Don't you think he has friends, one of which owns the local wood processing facility

Casting aspersion? Do you have anything that would support your ...claim?
Braveheart16 18 | 286
17 Sep 2017 #120
Braveheart16 - for Szyszko, his friends in the forest industry and anyone else who will benefit, to line their pockets and prepare for retirement.
Ironside -

Maybe but the system of gov in Poland is such that they have the right to cut down trees in the BF and that is the bottom line.

I am not sure that the decision to cut down trees is actually 'owned' by the 'system of government' in Poland...it would seem to me to be more of a PIS initiative rather than PIS following some existing Polish statutory laws which give them the right to cut down trees in Białowieża Forest...be it infested trees or healthy ones and sell them on....The forest is special to many people in Poland and many others including the EU and UNESCO who continue to be concerned on the continuation of logging....If there are any laws in place which allow Polish governments to carry out logging in a World Heritage Site such as Białowieża Forest I would be interested to see them.

Beetle infestation is of course a serious issue but the method on how to deal with it needs to be discussed with professional bodies within Poland and outside (such as the EU...UNESCO...etc) who all have a vested interest to protect these special sites....it is not something which should be dealt with in isolation...As a member of the EU, Poland doesn't have the final say on such important and sensitive issues like this....

I presume it is ok to sell infested wood to others....or should these particular logs be burned......why not give away the healthy wood to people who would really benefit from some useful fuel.


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