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Białowieża National Park in Poland


CasualObserver
18 Sep 2017 #121
Credible - what credible, bodies- more oft or not have some political agenda.

How about the ones I posted for you in post #101. To recap:

1. A letter signed by a congress of 150 forest biology experts from across Europe and the World, at their international conference.
2. A statement by the Polish Academy of Sciences - Poland's scientific elite, the best in the country, the POLISH ACADEMY OF SCIENCES!
3. A statement by the State Council for Nature Conservation - a council of experts from Szyszko's own ministry.

There is NO higher credibility than these bodies. They are the best of the best in forest science.

So, we have Poland's top scientific academy, its council for nature conservation, and the ENTIRE body of International forest scientists, all saying that the logging is wrong. None of them are involved in politics, none of them will make any money.
mafketis 23 | 7,891
18 Sep 2017 #122
How about the ones I posted for you in post

He don't care. He's too busy swallowing the party line, hook and sinker. He's all about giving PiS every possible chance to ruin everything they possibly can in the name of..... he doesn't care because he'll never live in Poland again?
CasualObserver
18 Sep 2017 #123
Beetle infestation is of course a serious issue but the method on how to deal with it needs to be discussed with professional bodies

The situation in Bialowieza is about politics. For many years there has been tension between the state forest dept and state scientists to extend the national park to cover most of the forest (currently it only covers 17%). This would give protection to the whole forest and its ecosystem, as on the Belarus side of the forest, but would restrict forestry activities. Foresters earn high salaries and control almost all wood production in Poland, it's a very comfortable job and the dept is protective of its status. Locals are split - some work in forestry so did not want to extend the park and limit forestry while others work in tourism and wanted the park expanded. Bialowieza village is very wealthy by local standards, due to tourism. Hajnowka town is poorer, and relies on forestry to a larger extent. So there has been conflict.

UNESCO extended the World Heritage Status to the whole forest, making a case for extending the park, with support of Polish scientists. But the PO government refused, and instead reached a compromise whereby logging and management would be reduced to provide for local needs, while allowing natural recovery of the forest. All trees over 100 years old were protected from felling. Foresters saw this as a threat to their profits. Even 5 years ago they posted signs along the road saying that naturally fallen trees were destroying the forest and making it untidy - fallen trees were left to decay as part of the PO compromise not to remove fallen wood, to allow the important natural decay processes that are vital to the forest ecology. Foresters see this as a 'waste', and see only production and commodity value, not natural or scientific value. It was a clash of ideology.

When Szyszko came to power in the ministry, he rewarded the support of his forester friends by completely reversing the PO deal and going even further. The logging limit has been increased to higher than even before PO times, and 100 year old trees are not protected - his aim is to destroy what he can of the natural forest so that the National Park can never be extended, and so that foresters will have control forever, and the scientific case will be neutralised. That is what we are seeing right now, the beetles are just a cover story. This is why there is clear-felling of ALL trees (of all species, not just dead spruce), and planting of commercial oak trees in their place, as in this image from spring (when Szyszko attended in a ceremony): c1.staticflickr.com/3/2911/33365860343_221525ba58_z.jpg

If beetles were the real reason, only stands of dead trees would be felled, and there would be no need to plant anything, as the forest would regenerate its own trees. The fact that they are felling all species, and PLANTING new commercial trees in their place reveals the real motive. It is the permanent change of the natural forest into a timber factory, to finally kill the idea of extending the national park (as there will be nothing special left to protect). This will keep the foresters in the comfrtoable jobs, and make some money for those who are central to the policy (a LOT of money is being made here, from taking out the old valuable trees - it is being auctioned for sale on the international market: twitter.com/WWFEU/status/907599016569049088 ). But it will seriously damage, possibly kill, the tourist industry, especially from overseas. That means hotels, restaurants, guides, park rangers, shops etc etc. If the park was extended, then there was the possibility of extending the wealth of Bialowieza village to surrounding villages and towns. Instead, Hajnowka could well be spreading its poverty back into the villages by killing their tourism jobs.
gumishu 11 | 5,142
18 Sep 2017 #124
The fact that they are felling all species

where did you get it from? TVN?
Ironside 49 | 10,108
18 Sep 2017 #125
the national park to cover most of the forest (currently it only covers 17%).

Indeed and there they won't/are not cut/ing down the trees.

It was a clash of ideology.

Well, I can see it happening and most likely you're right and describe the situation correctly. However who is to say they are not right? I mean if not for a beetle that would be questionable but with this threat looming that might be a good solution to the problem.

After all it is not that trees are growing and there is no human interference at all. Maintaining such an enclave of forest cost a lot of money.

So basically is not about the National Park but about extension of the Park? Hmm ...
CasualObserver
18 Sep 2017 #126
@Ironside

No, some parts of the National Park are mixed in with the wider forest, and they are being felled too. They ARE cutting down all trees in blocks - this is called clear-felling. And then they plant non-local trees of uniform (commercial) species. look at the picture I provided. Just look for yourself.

As told to you before, the wider forest is not planted. Some of it is mamaged at a small sustainable scale. But Szyszko has increased the quota by 300%, which is not sustainable.

You ask "However who is to say they are not right?" and I have given you the answer to that questions TWICE. The Polish Academy of Sciences, the State Council for Nature Conservation, and the international forestry congress, as well as UNESCO - ALL of them say it is not right. You have been asked to provide anyone...just ANYONE...not on Szyszko's staff that says it is right. I have answered your question of who says it is not right. Three times now. If you have trouble reading, then go and see an optician. If you have trouble understanding, then go and watch TV and let the educated adults talk amongst themselves.

If the aim is to destroy the natural forest complex forever and make some money for a few people, then Szyszko is right. If the aim is top preserve what is special about Bialowieza for European, Polish and global scientific and cultural heritage, and make some money from tourism, then everyone else is right. It's as simple as that. Choose your side (but I think we can guess).
CasualObserver
18 Sep 2017 #127
where did you get it from? TVN?

No. I was there, and I saw it. How about you, where do you get your information from?
jon357 63 | 14,716
18 Sep 2017 #128
So, we have Poland's top scientific academy, its council for nature conservation,and the ENTIRE body of International forest scientists, all saying that the logging is wrong

Worth listening to, rather than whiny regime apologists, with a generationally ingrained instinct to argue that black is white and white is black.
Ironside 49 | 10,108
18 Sep 2017 #129
You ask "However who is to say they are not right?" and

Don't get hot under your collar. It was kind of a rhetorical question. Like we are talking about stuff and exchanging opinions and that is all that can be done here.

I have also said - its likely you are telling it as it is. Have you seen it? If not read it again. if you did see it there is not need for you to turn rabid and go personal with me. I have been nothing but courteous towards you and I expect the same in return. If you want to do it the hard way you will regret it as I will tear you to shreds on this forum. Ask anyone if you don't believe me.

I'm not the one to fall to my knees just because bombastic bureaucrats with academic titles and want me to.
----

rather than whiny regime apologists, with a generationally ingrained instinct to argue that black is white and white is black.@ jon357

Said a manipulative commie that many times on this forums claimed that backs is white and white is black and those who disagree are fascist, racist and bigots. lol

The only thing you have against regime is that is not your regime.
jon357 63 | 14,716
19 Sep 2017 #130
I'm not the one to fall to my knees just because bombastic bureaucrats with academic titles and want me to.

Those pesky experts...
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #131
I'm not the one to fall to my knees just because bombastic bureaucrats with academic titles and want me to.

I'm very sure that you will fall to your knees before an academic title when the time comes to check your prostate. Unless you prefer to ask Szyszko to use his middle digit?

Ribbing aside, you're right that we should keep it civil, so apologies if I seemed harsh. But you DO keep ignoring the facts (yes, facts!) I give you, such as the scientific weight of opinion. I do understand that politics is sometimes like football, in that it's hard to criticise your 'team' even after a poor match. But this situation is so clearly above politics (Bialowieza is very special to many Poles and other Europeans), and so obviously a power/money grab, that it's beyond 'benefit of the doubt'. It is blatant.

I think what would have happened if PO had done this, and tripled the logging, closed 2/3 of the forest to tourism, openly sold the wood on the internet, and ignored all scientific and cultural opinion. It would have rightly been crucified. And for PiS, the partiotic party, to do this to Poland's unique heritage? It's like spitting in the eye of the nation. What amazes me is that Kaczynski has said nothing, despite the really bad international publicity and protests (which he is sensitive to). Does Szyszko have some dirt on Kaczynski that makes him immune? Serious question.
gumishu 11 | 5,142
19 Sep 2017 #132
No. I was there, and I saw it. How about you, where do you get your information from?

I doubt you can tell a spruce from an oak - after all you said spruce is a wildfire-resistant tree
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #133
No, I said it was "fire adapted". Like all conifers. Not nearly as fire adapted as Pine, but a lot more than Oak or Hornbeam.

So, answer the question that I answered for you: where do you get your information on Bialowieza? Have you ever even been? Could you find it on a map?
Braveheart16 18 | 158
19 Sep 2017 #134
CasualObserver....thank you very much for your insightful and helpful overview of the Bialowieza Forest problem. This is very useful for understanding the bigger picture and what is at stake which in the case of PIS appears to be money and helping forestry friends increase their income and retirement funds. Clearly those who benefit from this current logging crime are short sighted and fail to understand (or don't want to understand) the terminal effects of their work. It shows incredible disrespect to the Polish people who have been lied to time and time again as to the reasons for logging.....and of course the Polish people will ultimately be the ones who suffer....reduced prospects of work....etc. Luckily those that do know the real story behind this will continue to educate the ones who turn a blind eye to all that is going on.....
Ironside 49 | 10,108
19 Sep 2017 #135
I'm very sure that you will fall to your knees before an academic title when the time comes to check your prostate.

In such a case it would be literally the reverse.

You didn't get it. The point I made is that experts provide their expertise but untimely it is a political decision. Unless you can prove that gov has not right to do what it does all that are just political musings nought else.

Also you keep reposting list of some bodies/ organization with political bias and agendas/. Some of them are kind of club for people with academic titles, those are not experts those are politicized pen pushers.

If you don't see the difference between them I can't help you.

current logging crime

There is no crime. The point is they are not breaking any laws.

CasualObserver....thank you very much for your insightful

The problems is you need to take HIS WORD on it face value. How much trust would you like to put into some anonymous person on the forum - who cannot even bother to register?
Roger5 1 | 1,458
19 Sep 2017 #136
Carpentry grade Oak, 50mm boards. 4305PLN/M3 today online. Nice business.
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #137
Unless you can prove that gov has not right to do what it does all that are just political musings nought else.

Now you are changing your argument. First you argue that it is scientifically correct (or disputed). I have shown you that scientists do not think it is correct. Now you move on, ignoring whether it is scientifically justified, and say that mayeb it is politically justified. So, politicians should be allowed to make bad decisions, against the science? You still support that? You will defend making a bad decision?

In any case, you are wrong about the politics too, which is why Poland has been handed an injunction by the European Court of Justice (ECJ). Poland is a treaty member of the EU, so Polish law accepts the verdicts of the ECJ, which defines the rights according to Polish and EU Law. Bialowieza is a Natura 2000 site, which Poland has agreed in law that it has EU protection. And the ECJ has said Szyszko does not have the right to log the forest, and he should stop immediately. Szyszko has refused, in breach of EU Law and the injunction. So, unless Poland wants to leave the EU, then it does not have the right to log the forest.

So, there you have it, the fact that the ECJ has handed down an injunction to Poland PROVES that, under current laws signed by Poland, Szyszko does NOT have the right to cut the forest. It is very simple.
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #138
Some of them are kind of club for people with academic titles, those are not experts those are politicized pen pushers.

You don't seem to understand. The Polish Academy of Sciences is the Poland's top scientific institute. There is nothing higher, nothing with more expertise. It has no political attachments at all. It is a body of experts that provide the top scientific expertise for Poland.

The State Council for Nature Conservation DOES have a political bias - to PiS! It is currently part of Szyszko's ministry. And even it condemns the logging.

This is now the fourth time this has been pointed out to you, so let it sink in. If you think the Polish Academy of Sciences are just pen pushers, you are basically saying that Poland has no credible scientific expertise on anything, and its whole scientific activity is political pen pushing. You are saying that all Polish physics, chemistry, biology, geology is unreliable and unprofessional, and that Poland cannot produce scientists of any merit. You cannot have it both ways, either you agree that the Polish Academy of Sciences is reputable, or you denigrate all of Polish science, because there is no alternative scientific academy that governs Polish science. The PAS is the pinnacle.

So which is it? Poland has no worthwhile science, or you accept that the Polish Academy of Sciences are experts?
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #139
There is no crime. The point is they are not breaking any laws.

Yes they are. They are breaking EU law, to which Poland is a signatory member. There are two laws here. The first is whether the logging is justified. This case is being heard in the European Court of Justice. But the second law is that the ECJ gave an injunction to immediately stop logging, while the case is heard. So, even if Poland wins the first case, it has already broken the second case by ignoring the injunction and carrying on with logging all through summer. So any logging right now is illegal, according to the laws of Poland (as adopted under the EU). Logging might become legal in the future if Poland wins the first case in ECJ, but right now it is completely illegal, because there is an ECJ injunction ordering it to stop, which Szyszko has broken every single day since it was ordered several months ago.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,747
19 Sep 2017 #140
They are breaking EU law,

Could you provide a link that details the EU aws that heve been broken.
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #141
Here is the EU request (order) to stop logging immediately: europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-17-1948_en.htm

Here is a report of Poland's response to ignore the ban: theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/31/poland-continue-logging-biaowieza-forest-despite-eu-court-ban

For balance, here is the state controlled broadcaster reporting the same response (Poland to ignore the order to stop logging): thenews.pl/1/2/Artykul/319554,Poland-responds-to-European-Court-of-Justice-on-Bialowieza-forest-logging

So, do you agree it is clear that the EU has ordered Poland to stop immediately, and Poland has refused? Yes? Ok, then let's progress:

Here is a blog from protestors in the forest that gives dates of logging operations, all the way through August and September, after the EU ban on logging that Poland said it will ignore: save-bialowieza.net/news/

If you don't believe that, then here is a report (with pictures) from Reuters news agency showing logging operations continuing in August: reuters.com/article/us-poland-logging-eu/logging-in-ancient-forest-would-affect-rule-of-law-process-against-poland-eu-idUSKBN1AI1CL

So, we have an EU court order to stop logging in July. In July/August we have the Polish govt acknowledging the order, but saying it will ignore it (i.e. it will break the law), and then in August and September we have photographic and independent (reuters) evidence of logging being done in august (the law being broken).

Is that enough evidence for you?
Ironside 49 | 10,108
19 Sep 2017 #142
1. I think that EU should keep their dirty hands out of the Polish affairs and that Polish law should be always superior to EU law.

2. Polish gov suspended logging until the EU c..t ruling on the issue.

@CasualObserver
There is sense to continue our exchange lets agree to disagree.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,915
19 Sep 2017 #143
1. I think that EU should keep their dirty hands out of the Polish affairs and that Polish law should be always superior to EU law.

That's not how it works. If it did, you'd be the first to complain when others use it against Poland.

2. Polish gov suspended logging until the EU c..t ruling on the issue.

Ironside, no...they didn't.
Braveheart16 18 | 158
19 Sep 2017 #144
I think that this is game, set and match on the question as to whether Poland has broken any laws.....quite simple really just read the links provided by 'CasualObserver' and this provides all the information needed to see what is happening and it shows that laws are being broken........its only taken hours of postings to get this point across....Now will this be enough or will it be necessary to get signed statements from news agencies, the EU or whoever to prove the information or are these links all false.........lets move on from acceptance that laws have been broken to what should be happening next.....

The logging problem really feels like the Wild West with people just doing what they like, breaking the law, destroying trees, assault on a cameraman (albeit an isolated incident but does show that the contractors know they are doing wrong and keen to keep the public away from the forest), giving out of false/misleading information, contempt for any opposition etc....the PIS really must think so little of the voting public that they can just steam roller through the illegal logging in the belief that everyone agrees with this....or perhaps expects the public to overlook what is happening in the forest on the basis of it being just a few trees and that there are more important things happening....eg. law and order changes....500zl payments....etc.... I don't think the voting public are that stupid and will make their own minds up when they see the terminal damage caused to the forest.....(providing of course that information on what is happening in the forest is made available to the public)....
delphiandomine 83 | 17,915
19 Sep 2017 #145
500zl payments

Bingo.

Polish people are *very* materialistic.
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #146
I think that EU should keep their dirty hands out of the Polish affairs and that Polish law should be always superior to EU law.

You might want to 'think' that, but all the time that Poland is in the EU then it has accepted that EU Court has primacy over domestic courts. So while Poland is in the EU then EU law has been incorporated into Polish law - in other words, EU law is Polish law. And PiS have stated that they want to remain in the EU (and continue to so accept EU court jurisdiction). If you and they feel different, then just trigger Article 50 as the UK has done. Until that time, you and PiS must live by the law of the land.

Polish gov suspended logging until the EU c..t ruling on the issue.

No they haven't. I have given you two pieces of documented evidence PROVING that logging has continued. Not only that, I gave you two reports (one by PiS controlled media) quoting the government as saying that it will NOT suspend logging.

It must be annoying for you that so much evidence exists to challenge and disprove your assertions, including the statements of PiS themselves. But that's the way it is.
Ironside 49 | 10,108
19 Sep 2017 #147
Ironside, no...they didn't.

Check it again,

That's not how it works

I know, I have said that in my opinion it should work this way.

500zl payments

BS, check in random thread I posted there about it.
Also you're all hypocrites, most western states have some sort of welfare in place, France, German being in the lead but even usa has more welfare programs in place than Poland even at the moment.

Check your facts or your head.
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #148
Check it again,

Ironside, even thenews.pl reported the government statement that they will NOT suspend logging. And then I gave you photos from Reuters from 3 weeks after the order, with trees still being cut down. Why are you even trying to dispute this? Is the PiS-controlled state broadcaster lying? Is Reuters telling the same lie? Are the photos fakes? Just stop arguing about it, you're making yourself look silly.

I know, I have said that in my opinion it should work this way.

But you do accept that your opinion is not the law, correct? And that until it is, then we must all respect the Polish laws as they stand, correct? And that means accepting the Polish laws that originate from the EU.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,747
19 Sep 2017 #149
Here is the EU request (order) to stop logging

You gotta laugh the EU tree huggers take a country to court to stop rotten trees being chopped up , but have no problems with infesting EU nations with terrorist migrants who are slaughtering EU citizens at will.

The next case on the EU court list is to make Poland take its fair share of terrorists , seems like trees have more rights than people these days.
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #150
You gotta laugh

Not really relevent to whether logging is legal or scientifically justified though, is it? I think you;re on the wrong thread. Ranting about muslims is somewhere else on the site.


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