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Białowieża National Park in Poland


dolnoslask 5 | 2,747
19 Sep 2017 #151
Ranting about muslims

Where did I mention muslims, are you saying muslims are terrorists.

I am on topic when I say that in my opinion the EU has biigger priorities than arguing whos scientists have the best approach with dealing with a bug infestation. people are dying on the streets of Europe what is being done to solve that problem.

whether logging is legal or scientifically justified

So are you saying only scientists and lawyers can make a comment on this thread.
Ironside 49 | 10,108
19 Sep 2017 #152
Not really relevent to whether logging is legal or scientifically justified though, is it

However all that scientific clap trap rest on theory that has not been empirically proven as the forest around the National park has been systematically maintained by people and from 1948 onwards there are detailed maps in existence of logging and planting.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,747
19 Sep 2017 #153
maintained by people and from 1948

Exactly the people on the ground know that forrest better than anyone else, they are well placed and have the knowledge to care for it.

Scientist are still arguing the toss as to whether butter is good or bad for you. whos to say they know what they are doing.
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #154
However all that scientific clap trap

What a high opinion you have of Poland's top scientific achievers. Or do you prefer to think of Poland as a nation of manual workers, that is unable to progress in science, and with an education system only able to produce "clap trap" rather than reliable scientific advice? Poland 'can't do science', is that what you're saying?
dolnoslask 5 | 2,747
19 Sep 2017 #155
What a high opinion you have of Poland's top scientific achievers

No need to start baiting someone when you are losing an argument, It is not just Polish scientists that are involved in this matter and the fact is that scientists regardless of nationality have been proved to be wrong.
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #156
Exactly the people on the ground know that forrest better than anyone else

People like Professor Tomasz Wesolowski, who's studied in Bialowieza for 40 years? Or Professor Ludwik Tomialojc, who has studied in the forest for 50 years? Or Dr hab Rafal Kowalczyk, who has studied there for 20 years? You mean those people on the ground?
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #157
No need to start baiting someone when you are losing an argument, It is not just Polish scientists that are involved in this matter and the fact is that scientists regardless of nationality have been proved to be wrong.

Who's losing? I have shown that the international scientific consensus is against logging (scroll back to read it). I have shown that the legal argument is against logging. What's left? "scientists have been proved to be wrong"? So you're happy to ignore the top scientific advice and the law, in case you might be right that logging is good? Ok, can I use the same argument to perform a little heart surgery on you? It's illegal, and scientists say it will kill you, but what do scientists know?!
gumishu 11 | 5,142
19 Sep 2017 #158
No, I said it was "fire adapted". Like all conifers. Not nearly as fire adapted as Pine, but a lot more than Oak or Hornbeam.

bullshit my friend - spruce is completely vulnerable to wildfires - that it has resin proves nothing - in fact if anything spruce resin makes it even more vulnerable
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #159
Thankyou for your learned statement.
mafketis 23 | 7,892
19 Sep 2017 #160
No need to start baiting someone when you are losing an argument

However all that scientific clap trap

Indeed....
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #161
Why does gumishu and ironside and dolnoslask always post in very rapid succession of one another, like they're in the same place? Just asking...
gumishu 11 | 5,142
19 Sep 2017 #162
Thankyou for your learned statement.

oh and you are an authority on the subject - please enlighten me your highness

and a paranoid authority at that - who would have thunk
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #163
oh and you are an authority on the subject

Well, I'm a PhD forest scientist, yes, my young serf.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,747
19 Sep 2017 #164
Professor Ludwik Tomialojc,

Yea a political activist, so he is independent not biased at all is he.

There is a great deal of political agenda, motivation behind this both in Poland and the EU.
gumishu 11 | 5,142
19 Sep 2017 #165
do you know the typical habitat of spruce - ever heard that it's called Norway spruce in English - do you still think spruce (aka Norway spruce) is fire tolerant
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #166
Yea a political activist, so he is independent not biased at all is he.

What?! He's a retired professor of biology/ecology at Wroclaw University. He's in his 80s.
gumishu 11 | 5,142
19 Sep 2017 #167
Well, I'm a PhD forest scientist, yes, my young serf.

please explain how in your theory spruce if fire tolerant
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #168
There is a great deal of political agenda, motivation behind this both in Poland and the EU.

Yes there is. But the Polish Academy of Sciences is not political. Neither is UNESCO. Neither was the international forestry congress. Neither are the professors I listed. But Szyszko is political, because he's...you know...a politician.
mafketis 23 | 7,892
19 Sep 2017 #169
the Polish Academy of Sciences is not political. N...But Szyszko is political, because he's...you know...a politician.

Some people are simply bound and determined to support every plank of the PiS platform. I'm sure that dolno, irony and gumibear could justify what they've done to Pride of Poland (decreased it to 1/8 of what it was two years ago).
gumishu 11 | 5,142
19 Sep 2017 #170
@CasualObserver

btw as far as I know almost pure spruce stands or majority spruce stands only developed in Białowieża forest after an extensive period of logging during the I World War by Germans
dolnoslask 5 | 2,747
19 Sep 2017 #171
Why does gumishu and ironside and dolnoslask always post

Because we don't, but we have an interest in this topic so please keep on topic.

I think Białowieża is being used as a political stick to beat Poland over the head with by those who are unhappy with the current government, those who are most unhappy and plot against Poland reside within the halls of the EU.
gumishu 11 | 5,142
19 Sep 2017 #172
what they've done to Pride of Poland

what is this thing - never heard of this - I know that PiS managed to hike the value of Orlen by more than 20 per cent during their rule - and this counts in billions - you heard about Orlen haven't you?
Ironside 49 | 10,108
19 Sep 2017 #173
But the Polish Academy of Sciences is not political.

Are you kidding me? That is the most politically biased institution that supposed to be all about science there is.

Neither is UNESCO

They as I said base their action on legal issues and not out of their own accord. In short, they have been asked for their opinion which they base on legalities and politicks not on a merit of an argument.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,747
19 Sep 2017 #174
What?! He's a retired professor of biology/ecology at Wroclaw University. He's in his 80s.

He is a green party activist
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #175
Are you kidding me? That is the most politically biased institution that supposed to be all about science there is

Can you support that statement in any way at all, with any examples? The PAS has been there since 1948. Do you even know what it does? It is the scientific advisory body, and runs the scientific institutions of all disciplines, from physics to biology. It's a science academy. It's never been political.
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #176
He is a green party activist

Any proof of that? The one I'm talking about is a science professor.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,916
19 Sep 2017 #177
It's a science academy.

What Ironside is actually saying is that as PAN isn't under the control of PiS, it must therefore be against PiS. It was the same thing with the PZPR - if you weren't with them, then you were automatically against them.
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #178
I think Białowieża is being used as a political stick to beat Poland over the head with by those who are unhappy with the current government

You're right, there is some of that - but mostly because it's so obvious a target for criticism. But that does not detract from the core issues, and so it is important to raise this above politics and political opinions, and concentrate on the science and the law. The science is not political, it's just the science. And the law is the law.

If we put the politics to one side and look at the scientific consensus, inside and outside of Poland, from national and world experts on forest biology, and if we look at the law as directed by the EU court to which Poland is subject, then the facts are quite clear.
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #179
What Ironside is actually saying is that as PAN isn't under the control of PiS,

Well actually it gets 1/3 of its budget from PiS, so it is under some kind of pressure to tow the line. And still they speak out when they the science calls for it, because science is not political.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,916
19 Sep 2017 #180
What we see here is that people cannot imagine an institution acting independently. If you look at the institutions under control of PiS (like the IPN), then they do exactly what they're told to do by their political masters, so they immediately assume that anyone else speaking out must be under the control of politicians too.

It's a very, very communist mentality.


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