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Białowieża National Park in Poland


dolnoslask 6 | 3,076
19 Sep 2017 #181
Any proof of that? The one I'm talking about is a science professor.

Will this do or do you know another Professor Ludwik Tomialojc

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwik_Tomia%C5%82oj%C4%87

Don't forget many of these institutions are now rife with marxist lefty activists.

But Ludwik is a greenie not sure where that lot fit into the political spectrum.
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #182
@dolnoslask

Ok, I didn't know that, but does that make him an activist? It was 13 years ago too, so not really current. But for argument's sake, let's discount him. So, what about Wesolowski and Kowalczyk? Will you accept those as informed non-political opinions?

Don't forget many of these institutions are now rife with marxist lefty activists.

Well, I will 'forget' that, because you can't prove that any more than I can disprove it. It's like me saying that the state forestry dept is full of far-right nationalists. So let's stick to what we know, and not guess. Although, what you call 'lefty' in Poland is actually still pretty far to the right in many other countries!
dolnoslask 6 | 3,076
19 Sep 2017 #183
But that does not detract from the core issues, and so it is important to raise this above politics and political opinions

Yes and I totaly agree with you on this , you have my vote
gumishu 12 | 6,103
19 Sep 2017 #184
so Casual - can you explain how spruce is fire resistant with like half centemeter of bark on the biggest examples?

and your proof that all species are equally felled is hmm anectodal you know - you know the word I guess
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #185
can you explain how spruce is fire resistant

Never said it was 'resistant', old chum. I pointed that out to you earlier.
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #186
and your proof that all species are equally felled is hmm anectodal you know

Except for that photo I showed you earlier, showing an example of the clear cutting. There is also plenty of photos of clear cuts and stacked oaks.

Tell me, gumbo, have you ever been to this forest?
gumishu 12 | 6,103
19 Sep 2017 #187
Never said it was 'resistant', old chum. I pointed that out to you earlier

if it's not resistant then it is vulnerable no? as you would expect from a tree with a half centimeter of bark - now look at Scottish pine aka sosna zwyczajna and how thick it's bark becomes at the bottom of the trunk - no minor undergrowth fire can harm as opposite to spruce
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #188
felled oak: birdlife.org/europe-and-central-asia/news/paradise-lost-devastation-bia%C5%82owie%C5%BCa-forest

felled oak: pbs.twimg.com/media/DJl4K09XoAAKcPa.jpg

clear cutting: thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/317958,Poland-faces-court-deadline-in-logging-case-report

clear cutting: gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/view-from-bialowieza-forest-an-unesco-natural-world-news-photo/688774996

clear cutting: gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/dozens-of-ecologists-attend-a-protest-against-the-large-news-photo/688995640
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #189
if it's not resistant then it is vulnerable no?

No, it can suppress fire. It is not vulnerable nor resistant to fire, it is adapted to the risk of fire. Pine promotes fire.
gumishu 12 | 6,103
19 Sep 2017 #190
Tell me, gumbo, have you ever been to this forest?

no I haven't been to THIS forest - but I doubt your report to be honest - and even if a couple of oaks were felled it doesn't really matter on the grand scale - and on the grand scale I very much doubt the felling looks like a wholesale one (i.e. everything goes)

No, it can suppress fire

suppress fire - spruce - how - are you able to explain this? even its needles are full of resin and you are talking about suppressing fires
gumishu 12 | 6,103
19 Sep 2017 #191
felled oak:

how can you tell the felled ok was in Białowieża - does it show in the photos

clear cuttings - where all trees are infested what is there to leave

No, it can suppress fire. It is not vulnerable nor resistant to fire, it is adapted to the risk of fire. Pine promotes fire.

at first you said all conifers promote fires - spruce is a conifer, no - and suddenly it doesn't promote fires but somehow manages to suppress them - how am I supposed to believe you know what you are talking about
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #192
but I doubt your report to be honest - and even if a couple of oaks were felled it doesn't really matter

Ok, you've never seen it, so maybe you don;t get what it's like. Let me tell you, from first hand experience: Bialowieza is a natural forest, which means that all the species are in mixed stands, with about 5 or 6 different species growing right in amongst each other, of many different ages and sizes. Rarely do you get more more than a couple of trees of the same species standing next to each other. So, if you want to cut down a spruce, you will also need to cut down several other trees in order to reach it. But as you can see from the photos I gave you, the logging operations are using clear felling methods: they cut all trees in a large block of several hectares, and leave a buffer of about 50 m between this and the next block. You can see the clear cutting in this report: earthisland.org/journal/index.php/elist/eListRead/europes_last_primeval_forest_brink_of_collapse/

Logging an area like that means that you take out hundreds of trees of all species - oak, hornbeam, spruce (healthy and diseased), pine, alder, limes, hazel shrubs, everything. These are the major species in the forest, most being found in all stands. Even you should be able to look at that picture and understand that not just dead spruces are being removed on a large scale. Everything is being removed, and replaced by commercial oak saplings.

Here is another clear cut, taken 9 August 2017: gettyimages.co.uk/event/bialowieza-national-park-775028778#sign-by-the-road-seen-on-august-09-2017-on-the-681-voivodeship-road-picture-id837845636

Now, you can believe what you want. All I can do is put the evidence before you.
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #193
how am I supposed to believe you know what you are talking about

Well, we'll let other readers decide what and whom to believe: someone who has been to the forest many times, or someone who has admittedly never been. To be frank, I don't need to convince you of anything, because you are just the useful prompt that is enabling me to put this information out more widely in this debate, to allow other sensible grown ups to make up their own minds about what is happening and why.
gumishu 12 | 6,103
19 Sep 2017 #194
sign-by-the-road-seen-on-august

where do you sea clear cut here - I can see plenty of trees standing

because you are just the useful prompt that is enabling me to put this information out more widely in this debate, to allow other sensible grown ups to make up their own minds about what is happening and why.

and with the spruce somehow promoting fires or being able to suppress fires you are actually making yourself look like a fool - so behold everybody who reads this thread - despite the fact that this guy (CasualObserver) holds a PhD in the general subject of the thread he doesn't actually know what he's talking about
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
19 Sep 2017 #195
Well, we'll let other readers decide what and whom to believe: someone who has been to the forest many times, or someone who has admittedly never been

I think most rational people (including the Polish public) believe scientists over the greed of Szyszko.

What we're seeing here is an example of typical PiS supporters who will ignore any and all evidence if it is contrary to what their political masters tell them.
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #196
Ever heard of an ad hominen attack? That's what you're trying to do. You really think you have a killer blow with this spruce fire thing, don't you, despite misquoting me time and time again. You're persistent, I'll give you that! Persistently wrong, but persistent!
gumishu 12 | 6,103
19 Sep 2017 #197
I guess you never read what contradicts your point of view but hey maybe you will try this time - niezalezna.pl/78325-obalamy-mity-ekologow-o-puszczy-bialowieskiej-prawda-jest-calkiem-inna

and again - am I wrong when I say that spruce bark is not even 1cm thick on the biggest species which makes the species vulnerable to fires - your authority is on the scales you know

or please explain how does spruce is able to suppress fires
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
19 Sep 2017 #198
you will try this time

Why are you posting links to propaganda that is directly controlled by PiS? Of course they're going to justify it.
dolnoslask 6 | 3,076
19 Sep 2017 #199
anyway la la la, so they pick the easy target , but the huge issue is the decimation of the amazon forest, club pionts if anyone knows the amount of pharmaceuticals that have originated from that one place, oh but its a tough nut to crack, not even the UN dare save that place, probably the cure for cancer has already been chopped up and burned.
gumishu 12 | 6,103
19 Sep 2017 #200
Why are you posting links to propaganda that is directly controlled by PiS? Of course they're going to justify it.

please point to the untruths in the article if there are any - instead of dismissing it outright as propaganda - and PiS does NOT control Gazeta Polska - Gazeta Polska just happens to support the government - you are yourself spreading anti-PiS propaganda - unashamedly
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #201
So, to divert attention away from the tripling of logging in Bialowieza, in contravention of EU law and against the advice of the Polish Academy of Sciences and the State Council for Nature, gumishu wants to talk about fire and dolnoslask wants to talk about the Amazon.

Smoke and mirrors, they always clear and crack in the end.
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #202
please point to the untruths in the article if there are any

Because we are not accepting any evidence that has a political basis. Such as Tomialojc once standing as a green party candidate, and Ironside thinking that UNESCO are a political elite. So something directly from PiS is not really admissable as independent evidence.
gumishu 12 | 6,103
19 Sep 2017 #203
you haven't addressed the points made in the article at all - I guess you refuse you - because well you know better?

So, to divert attention away from the tripling of logging in Bialowieza

logging in Białowieża outside the strictly protected areas like the National Park took place also in the years 2012-2015 (i.e. during PO rule) - the thing the limits were too low to stop the gradation of the spruce bark beetle - it was a rotten compromise on the side of PO simply - it didn't resolve any issues
gumishu 12 | 6,103
19 Sep 2017 #204
gumishu wants to talk about fire

I am talking about vulnerability of the spruce to fires to prove you wrong and show the world that you actually don't know what you are talking about despite having a diploma in the field - so again how does spruce suppress fires according to you?
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #205
so again how does spruce suppress fires according to you?

Like this, sweetheart: onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2745.2010.01780.x/full
CasualObserver
19 Sep 2017 #206
it didn't resolve any issues

The bark beetles are only an issue if you care about large-scale commercial exploitation, but that was not the long-term plan for Bialowieza until Szyszko tripled the logging and expanded it to include old growth stands >100 years old.

You might find this illuminating (assuming that there is a light to be switched on in that head of yours): ec.europa.eu/environment/nature/natura2000/financing/docs/bialowiaza_case_study.pdf

Let us know if you need help with the long words.
Ironside 51 | 11,338
19 Sep 2017 #207
1. Frist of all what you're talking about is not science - is a scientific theory that at the fringes turns into ideology. You can see a difference between theory and an applied science ()with your PhD) can't you?

2. There is no scientific issue here contrary to what you claim. there is an ideological political argument based on a theory. If it is was purely about science then you would present us with a proof not with the list of professors or institutions that you agree with.

3. If you don't know how UNESCO or institutional bodies are working - better remain silent - you sound like a naïve child.

Because we are not accepting any evidence that has a political basis.

You presenting here nothing else but a theory, and idea, there is no evidence that no human inference into forest is better than inference because for the last 70 years people have been interfering in the forests all the time. There is a very detailed evidence for it. Except for about 17% of the forested area, for the national park. There is logging in the national park.

Historically people have been interfering with the forests one way or the other for a very long time.
gumishu 12 | 6,103
19 Sep 2017 #208
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2745.2010.01780.x/full

the article does not explain how does spruce suppress fires it only states it can be shown it does from ancient samples - so please in your own words how does spruce suppress widlfires?
dolnoslask 6 | 3,076
19 Sep 2017 #209
spruce suppress widlfires?

It bends over and whacks the flames with its branches did babcia never tell you this.
gumishu 12 | 6,103
19 Sep 2017 #210
@gumishu

this is how Bayrisher Wald national park looks like - do you want the same thing in Białowieża?

Las Bawarski

@dolnoslask

It bends over and whacks the flames with its branches did babcia never tell you this.

hhahaha good joke :)


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