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Russian criticism of Poland - Soviet war memorial removal


johnny reb 49 | 7,321
20 Mar 2019 #91
Russia is angry at Poland over WWII anniversary snub.
Russia expressed anger Wednesday that President Vladimir Putin has not been invited to ceremonies marking the 80th anniversary of the outbreak of World War II in Poland later this year.

msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-angry-at-poland-over-wwii-anniversary-snub/ar-BBV0ZnN?li=BBnbfcL
Vlad1234 17 | 889
20 Mar 2019 #92
In those days the Nazis and Soviets had the support of the majority of their countrymen.

Are you sure? I have doubts in total and unconditional support.
johnny reb 49 | 7,321
20 Mar 2019 #93
In those days the Nazis and Soviets

Where did you find that quote ?
The point here is that Putin is steamed at Poland's shun towards Russia.
Miloslaw 20 | 5,086
20 Mar 2019 #94
Russia is angry at Poland over WWII anniversary snub.

F them....Poland doesn't need Russia's blessing FFS.
Vlad1234 17 | 889
21 Mar 2019 #95
the former Soviet Union was more usually dominated by non-Russians, e.g. Ukrainians (Khrushchev and Brezhnev) and Stalin was an ethnic Georgian.

https://polishforums.com/news/poland-russian-criticism-soviet-war-74958/3/
Khrushchev was born in Russia and had no traceable Ukrainian ancestry. He just ruled Ukraine before became a General Secretary and this is why he associated with Ukraine sometimes. Brezhnev ancestry is mixed, his father is Russian and was born in Russia and his mother was born in Donetsk region. His appearance makes to think about some heavy Turkic influence, possibly Tatar or Kazakh.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,047
22 Mar 2019 #96
80 years later, insulting Russia with no upside - what a brilliant foreign policy.
pawian 223 | 24,567
14 May 2023 #97
After the Russian invasion of Ukraine the removal process of Soviet monuments in Poland gained momentum.
The latest example is the one in Głubczyce. Gratitude to the Red Army collapsed! :):):)
I find it really amasing it had survived till our times. Its end should have taken place 30 years ago.



GefreiterKania 35 | 1,352
14 May 2023 #98
I find it really amasing it had survived till our times. Its end should have taken place 30 years ago.

I'm not so sure about that. The monuments of Lenin, prominent communists or Russian commanders/generals were very rightly removed, but why destroy the monuments of soldiers? After all they had very little to do with politics and gave their lives to kick Nazis out of Poland; Nazis whose objective - after murdering all the Jews - was to either exterminate Poles or turn them into slave labor force. Those soldiers defeated Wehrmacht, liberated the concentration camps and brought a kind of freedom for Poland (limited and bitter but still). Their victory meant life for Poles (both Christians and Jews) and the end of Nazi-German nightmare.

I would leave the monuments for soldiers alone. Just sayin.
Bobko 25 | 1,944
14 May 2023 #99
I would leave the monuments for soldiers alone.

Very controversial opinion you have adopted.
GefreiterKania 35 | 1,352
14 May 2023 #100
Very controversial opinion

Not that controversial and not that uncommon among Poles.

Pawian will disagree and probably sling some mud on me, but I really think we should leave the monuments for simple soldiers alone.
pawian 223 | 24,567
14 May 2023 #101
but why destroy the monuments of soldiers?

You are making a mistake now. Those aren`t monuments to soldiers, but to the Red Army which, let me remind you, bravely attacked Eastern Poland in alliance with Nazi Wehrmacht in 1939. The Polish officers who became POWs then, perished in mass executions. Soviets colluded with Nazis in destroying Poland in 1939 and later on.

gave their lives to kick Nazis out of Poland;

Soviets didn`t have to liberate Poland. Americans would easily do it in 1945 after dropping a few atomic bombs on German cities, forcing Nazis to surrender unconditionally, like Japan did. Additionally, Warsaw would have been spared too coz Poles wouldn `t have felt pressed to start a rising to capture the city before Soviets did.

I would leave the monuments for soldiers alone

Individual soldiers of the Red Army are honoured in cemeteries which are well taken care of. The Red Army monuments still exisitng here are a scandal.
Paulina 17 | 4,425
14 May 2023 #102
Those soldiers defeated Wehrmacht, liberated the concentration camps and brought a kind of freedom for Poland (limited and bitter but still).

They also robbed, raped and killed many Poles and burned their houses. So, even the ordinary Soviet soldiers are, let us say, controversial figures in our history and collective memory in Poland. That's why I think that graves can stay, but statues - no. Just sayin.
GefreiterKania 35 | 1,352
14 May 2023 #103
Those aren`t monuments to soldiers, but to the Red Army

Wasn't the one in Głubczyce dedicated to the 676 soldiers who died liberating the town?

Individual soldiers of the Red Army are honoured in cemeteries which are well taken care of.

Yes. It would be a scandal and an embarassment if it wasn't the case.
pawian 223 | 24,567
14 May 2023 #104
Very controversial opinion you have adopted.

Kania, like all of us, loves stirring controvercy from time to time and writes things he doesn`t really believe himself, especially when commenting on my contribution. He had done it a few times before and even admitted to it. :):):)
GefreiterKania 35 | 1,352
14 May 2023 #105
OK, Pawian - so what's your opinion about the mob (consisting mostly of Ukrainians) not allowing Russian ambassador to lay flowers in The Soviet Military Cemetery in Warsaw recently? And of the police not doing enough to enable the Russian delegation the entrance to the cemetery?

I, for once, am deeply ashamed about the incident.
pawian 223 | 24,567
14 May 2023 #106
I, for once, am deeply ashamed about the incident.

.
I cannot find any shame in me about that incident. Russians sowed the wind so they are gathering the storm now. Isn`t it natural, obvious and fully justified that people have come to the place to protest against the brutal war Russians started and are still waging as well as their war crimes?

Do you think I am indecent with such thinking??? :):):)

the mob (consisting mostly of Ukrainians)

They were patriots of Ukraine, not mob. You are misjudging people all the time. :(:(:(

They also robbed, raped and killed many Poles and burned their houses

Yes, the Red Army was infamous for such acts. That is why Kania`s claims they saved us from Nazi oppression while they in fact introduced their own oppression is amasing.
Paulina 17 | 4,425
14 May 2023 #107
Russian ambassador to lay flowers in The Soviet Military Cemetery

I think this ambassador is a Kremlin mouthpiece and human scum. To be honest, I don't care if someone like that is allowed or not allowed to put flowers somewhere. Lithuania, for example, expelled the RuSSian ambassador. Poland didn't (I'm not sure why).

I, for once, am deeply ashamed about the incident.

"Deeply"? Seriously? I'm not.

so what's your opinion about the mob (consisting mostly of Ukrainians)

I wonder what would be your opinion about this "mob" if it was your people, your family members getting killed and your country being destroyed by the country proudly and shamelessly represented by this ambassador. Whether you'd be so "deeply ashamed" and judgemental then... :(
pawian 223 | 24,567
14 May 2023 #108
Kania, you have been successful in stirring up this controvercy. Congrats. :):):)
GefreiterKania 35 | 1,352
14 May 2023 #109
people have come to the place to protest against the brutal war Russians started

They didn't come to protest against the war but to make it impossible for the embassy delegation to lay the flowers in the cemetery. And the police didn't do their job properly either.

As much as we all hate what Russia is doing in Ukraine the facts are simple:

1. We have laws in Poland about war graves and cemeteries (Ustawa o grobach i cmentarzach wojennych).
2. There is a Russian embassy in Poland (we didn't break diplomatic relations).
3. Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations still applies to Russian embassies in Poland and vice versa.

So, does the Russian embassador have the right to visit their war cemetery? Yes. Was the Russian delegation properly protected from the mob by the police (as they should be)? No.

It is an embarassment really, especially that a month before the incident - on 10th April - the delegation of Polish embassy in Moscow, led by the ambassador Krzysztof Krajewski, visited our cemetery in Katyń without any obstacles from the Russian side.

They were patriots of Ukraine

Patriots of Ukraine, possibly, but only guests in Poland, not the hosts - and the role of the hosts taking care of cemeteries and diplomatic relations is ours.

Congrats. :):):)

I'm doing what I can to keep the board alive. :)
pawian 223 | 24,567
14 May 2023 #110
They didn't come to protest against the war

Prove it!

led by the ambassador Krzysztof Krajewski, visited our cemetery in Katyń without any obstacles from the Russian side.

It wouldn`t be the same if Russians had obstructed the ceremony at the cemetery of Polish POWs murdered by the USSR whose heritage is fully acknowledged by modern Russia. You are applying incorrect proportions now.

Was the Russian delegation properly protected from the mob by the police (as they should be)? No.

Of course they were. Was the ambassador attacked and hurt??? No. Was he splashed with red paint like 1 year ago? No. So? What`s your problem??? :):):)
GefreiterKania 35 | 1,352
14 May 2023 #111
Prove it!

What? Pawian, you are getting old and demented - when have I ever proved anything on this board??? Don't be ridiculous. :)

You are applying incorrect proportions now.

It's not about proportions really but about this pesky little feeling that we didn't do our duty as hosts towards our guests because other guests decided that they don't like it. As a host in my own country I feel a bit uneasy about it. Oh, well...

What`s your problem??? :)

The right of Russian embassy to honour their war cemetery was denied, with stark violation to both the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations and Ustawa o grobach i cmentarzach wojennych - that's my problem. We are either a lawful country and hosts in our own land or we allow angry Ukrainian mob to run things. Tertium non datur.

*off to get some sleep* Good night.
pawian 223 | 24,567
14 May 2023 #112
you are getting old and demented

No, I feel rejuvenated and in good mental condition due to spring and various positive outcomes to my previous problems. :):):)

when have I ever proved anything on this board???

You see? That is why we consider your claims as unjustified erroneous private opinions. :):):):) The Ukrainian patriots protested against the Russian war. They took advantage of the opportunity and can`t be blamed for that.

We are either a lawful country

Yes, in a lawful country a group of people have a right to stage protests.

Now, tell us your solution to the problem. We would gladly read and learn. :):):)
Paulina 17 | 4,425
14 May 2023 #113
They didn't come to protest against the war but to make it impossible for the embassy delegation to lay the flowers in the cemetery.

That was a form of protest against the war and against the RuSSian authorities who were represented by that ambassador. It's not like those Ukrainians could go to the Kremlin and pour that paint on Putin, you know. So that was the only way for them to take out their anger on someone representing that vile state.

You have to be either dumb or pretend really hard that you don't understand this.

visited our cemetery in Katyń without any obstacles from the Russian side.

Well, Poland didn't invade RuSSia or, let us say, Belarus, in 2022, did it.

The right of Russian embassy to honour their war cemetery was denied, with stark violation to both the Vienna Convention

OMG, if you think how many conventions and agreements and principles RuSSians have violated concerning far more serious matters in Ukraine then I can't say I care... Cry me a river, Kania.
Novichok 4 | 8,046
14 May 2023 #114
Well, Poland didn't invade RuSSia in 2022,

Poland buys Russian oil and thus funds the Russian bullets that kill little babies in Ukraine. Therefore, Poland is Russia's ally and war criminal.

The Red Army monuments still exisitng here are a scandal.

The Red Army liberated Poland. You did nothing. The Red Army wins this contest.
Alien 21 | 5,170
14 May 2023 #115
That was a form of protest against the war and against the RuSSian authoritie

The question naturally arises as to whether this gathering of protestants was legally registered as a manifestation, and if so, whether it should have been banned? And have the police acted preemptively or attempted de-escalation? Unfortunately, when it comes to PR, Russia has won again.
Novichok 4 | 8,046
14 May 2023 #116
Unfortunately, when it comes to PR, Russia has won again.

This is what happens when Polish hate takes over reason. Next: digging out dead Soviet soldiers.
pawian 223 | 24,567
14 May 2023 #117
Unfortunately, when it comes to PR, Russia has won again.

Of course not. How can they win if they are losing all the time???

digging out dead Soviet soldiers.

It already took place long ago. The remains of Soviet soldiers originally buried in city squares and streets were exhumated and moved to proper places like war cemeteries.
Paulina 17 | 4,425
14 May 2023 #118
And have the police acted preemptively or attempted de-escalation?

I do think that since the police was there anyway, they should've protected him better, because one day it may be a gun or a knife instead of a bucket of paint and then it's going to be "on us". But besides that I can't say that I feel "deeply ashamed" because human scum got some paint on his face. Ukrainians have had to deal with plenty of real blood and not red paint because of scum like him.

when Polish hate takes over reason.

This was not Polish hate, but Ukrainian hate (and well founded and understandable). Polish Ministry of Internal Affairs advised the RuSSian embassy against laying the flowers considering the current situation. The ambassador went there knowing well what might happen and maybe even to provoke such situation, imho.
Novichok 4 | 8,046
14 May 2023 #119
advised the RuSSian embassy against laying the flowers considering the current situation.

How does laying flowers offend anyone on the globe?
pawian 223 | 24,567
14 May 2023 #120
The ambassador went there knowing well what might happen and maybe even to provoke such situation, imho.

Exactly. He regreted afterwards nobody had tried to make him even a bigger martyr by pouring paint on him again.

aying flowers offend anyone on the globe?

Come and lay flowers on Hitler`s grave (if it existed) in gratitude for saving your life in 1944. :):):)


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