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Russian criticism of Poland - Soviet war memorial removal


Bobko
9 Aug 2023 #211
Razing this monument is pure kurewstwo

Ughhh... thanks for keeping my faith in Poles alive.
mafketis
9 Aug 2023 #212
utin is undermining the Polish right to those lands with his statements about "Stalin's gift"

putain was talking a lot of nonsense as usual and he has no power whatsoever to change the western border.... which has also been accepted by Germany (which after WWII has a much better track record in keeping promises).

and it wasn't "a gift" (since he also carved off a third of Eastern Poland for himself). It was intended to provoke tensions between Germany and Poland... just like many other soviet borders

PiS is indirectly doing the same

how so? I don't see it... I see it as part of a larger movement that spans many countries which had previously been polite toward russia and let it wallow in its delusions about how great it was in WWII when the record is a lot more.... mixed

I suppose a new monument will be built that doesn't glorify the CCCP (even indirectly).
GefreiterKania
9 Aug 2023 #213
I suppose a new monument will be built that doesn't glorify the CCCP (even indirectly).

What do you mean? Removing the fallen soldiers from the monument, sort of like Yezhov was removed from the photo with Stalin? I don't think I like such idea of falsifying history very much.
mafketis
9 Aug 2023 #214
I don't think I like such idea of falsifying history very much.

The whole history of the Soviet army "liberating" Poland is a false history given what preceded it (and eliminating mention of lend-lease) not to mention what followed it (44 years of an unwanted military and economic 'alliance').
GefreiterKania
9 Aug 2023 #215
44 years of an unwanted military and economic 'alliance'

It might have been unwanted but during this alliance Polish population grew from 23 million in 1945 to 40 million in late 1980s. Also, Polish industry, farming and science developed to levels unreached before.

But this is a subject for a different thread, I suppose.
Paulina
9 Aug 2023 #216
@GefreiterKania, have mercy lol

After WWII industry, farming and science developed to levels unreached before in many countries lol 🤦 The same with population growth:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-20th_century_baby_boom

I'd say that the development in Poland happened despite the "alliance" with the Soviet Union and not thanks to it.
jon357
9 Aug 2023 #217
I'd say that the development in Poland happened despite

I'd mostly say that too.

The bit some will disagree with is that Socialism (whether a distorted form imposed by the Soviet Union) or a more practical aspect of it was part (but only part) of the growth in education, infrastructure and especially housing in the 60s and 70s. Had it been left to capitalists and their 'markets' there'd have been more nice villas built for the better off (though not many, since not many could afford them) however the ordinary people would be living in far worse conditions, and be far less well educated..

It mirrors slightly the situation in the U.K. where the Labour voting areas in the north cleared slums, built polytechnics and hospitals whereas the south east (which lives of money generated in the industrial north) didn't spend the money that much and progressed more slowly until Thatcher's asset grab in the 80s.

These aren't perfect comparisons since the countries are very different and of course the economies of Europe would have developed differently. Another (imperfect) comparison is with the capitalistic South American countries with their huge gap of rich and poor or America with its desperate poverty in the rust belt (only mitigated by the post war boom at the expense of other countries) and conspicuous wealth elsewhere. We forget about the grinding poverty they had there in the 30s of which Steinbeck wrote.
amiga500
9 Aug 2023 #218
Had it been left to capitalists and their 'markets'

Isin't the most relevant comparison here East Germany and West Germany? .As in if Poland was in the western sphere of influence after 1945, as opposed to being under soviet occupation.
jon357
9 Aug 2023 #219
Isin't the most relevant comparison here East Germany and West Germany

It's a comparison, however there was direct competition between the two with each to an extent feeding off the other and the interference in both by different parties muddies it. There's no perfect comparison, however the building boom of the 60s and 70s in Poland wasn't fortunately driven by capitalism, and although pre-war southern Italy and Poland had many differences as well as similarities, Poland's infrastructure from that period compares very well with that of, say, Calabria or Naples which were far more capitalistic and where living standards appear to lag behind Polish cities even now.

Had Poland been under the western sphere of influence after 1945, things would *probably* have been better however a heck of a lot of pre-war industrial and agricultural exploiters would have come back out of the woodwork. A plus though is that there wouldn't have been the dichotomy between the two economic systems and provided the (surprisingly large) socialist element in Polish pre-war society wasn't frustrated by the greedy, there may have been a large communitarian and worker-led element in post-war reconstruction.
Bratwurst Boy
9 Aug 2023 #220
The West was better with an East to compete with....that system rivalry did held the worst in check and forced them to be better....to bad the Easterners had to suffer for it!
pawian
9 Aug 2023 #221
Besides, this is what happened in history - both Soviet and Polish soldiers died in the battle for Szczecin.

Yes, Polish soldiers fought for POLISH Szczecin. While Soviet soldiers fought for Szczecin which could remain German because such were the plans. Even when finally Poland was allowed to take it, it was Poland under Soviet control, which was another occupation. Not so brutal as German before but still occupation. Symbols of Soviet occupation should vanish from the Polish public landscape. Fallen soldiers are honoured in cemeteries.

We talked about it tens of times. Why do you stubbornly repeat the same bs and make me explain such simple things again and again???

One more thing - it wasn`t only PiS who did it. The whole city council voted for the removal.
GefreiterKania
9 Aug 2023 #222
We talked about it tens of times.

... and I thought we agreed that monuments of Lenin, Stalin, leaders and generals should go but those of ordinary soldiers should be left alone. They fought hand-in-hand with our troops against the common enemy and 600,000 of them gave their lives taking Poland back from the nazis.
jon357
9 Aug 2023 #223
those of ordinary soldiers should be left alone

The graves, yes. That dreadful monument on Zwirki I Wigury is less about them and more about Soviet triumphalism.
Bratwurst Boy
9 Aug 2023 #224
go, but those of ordinary soldiers should be left alone.

I guess if it had been more like the monument in Berlin-Treptow it would had been left standing...a man with a child in his arm amidst a cemetery....not a superhuman showing off communist symbols....it's an acceptable difference also for conquered!

bloomberg.com/news/features/2022-09-20/why-berlin-won-t-be-tearing-down-its-soviet-memorials
pawian
9 Aug 2023 #225
I thought we agreed that monuments of ordinary soldiers should be left alone.

No, we didn`t, I still stick to my opinion expressed in post 188

That is why we have to pull down all memorials to Soviet criminals who first attacked Poland in alliance with Nazis and then "liberated" it only to enslave it into another totalitarian system.

600,000 of them gave their lives taking Poland back from the nazis.

Only after Nazis and Soviets, best friends and allies, quarreled with each other. Fekk them both.
pawian
9 Aug 2023 #226
.a man with a child in his arm amidst a cemetery..

That is acceptable. Other public places are not proper sites to keep Soviet rapists monuments. Pull all those criminals down at last! .
pawian
9 Aug 2023 #227
While Soviet soldiers fought for Szczecin which could remain German because such were the plans.

History of post war Szczecin
histmag.org/Jak-Stettin-stal-sie-Szczecinem-11384

[...]
However, it soon turned out that the wave of rapes and the burning of the city is not the biggest problem of the Polish authorities. A few days after Borkowicz sent the letter, the Provisional Government ordered the evacuation of the Polish administration, which took place on May 17-19, 1945. The reason was the unsettled issue of the course of the western border - although the areas on the right bank of the Oder were supposed to belong to Poland, Szczecin, however, lay on both sides of this river. When the Polish authorities left the city, the German population began to return to Szczecin. From the six thousand Germans who lived in this city at the beginning of May, this number has grown to twenty-four thousand.

[...]

Bobko
9 Aug 2023 #228
Only after Nazis and Soviets, best friends and allies, quarreled with each other. Fekk them both.

Very nice. Dismissing 600K dead with one wave of the hand.

Sending good thoughts to my great grandpa that burned alive in a tank under Warsaw, instead of stopping at the Soviet border and enjoying the rest of his life.
pawian
9 Aug 2023 #229
Dismissing 600K dead with one wave of the hand.

Yes, because they were puppets of the Imperial Russia in the form of the USSR. The same puppets who invaded Poland together with Nazis in 1939. Fekk them all. Ha!!!

great grandpa that burned alive in a tank under Warsaw,

Fekk your fake grandpa and his toy tank. Ha!
Ironside
9 Aug 2023 #230
a man with a child in his arm amidst a cemetery...

Those are not a great art. For most part those war monuments are no aesthetically pleasing.
pawian
9 Aug 2023 #231
Ironside is the nasty nationalist now?

Polish nationalists openly or secretly support Russia and Putin.
Bobko
9 Aug 2023 #232
Really? No! You are lying! This cannot be.

Why? Are they brain dead?
pawian
9 Aug 2023 #233
Why?

Because they consider Russia a good partner in dealing with issues they view as threats.
Enough.
We are wandering off the topic.
GefreiterKania
10 Aug 2023 #234
they were puppets of the Imperial Russia

They were ordinary people: farmers, drivers, school teachers. They had no more power to decide whom their country fights than their American or Polish counterparts.

Fekk your fake grandpa and his toy tank.

Jesus Christ...

...I mean really, pawian. Wtf is wrong with you???

Polish nationalists openly or secretly support Russia and Putin.

Polish patriots support what is best for Poland but even the occasional nationalists among them (a minority) don't have your level of hatred. Wtf???
pawian
10 Aug 2023 #235
your level

My level is only a nice counterbalance for your amassing love of Soviets. What is wrong with you?

Jesus Christ...

Stop calling the name of Jesus in vain, it is a sin. Which commandment, do you know? :):):)
mafketis
10 Aug 2023 #236
my great grandpa that burned alive in a tank

That's very sad and a difficult rememberance to bear. Do you also blame Stalin for starting the conflict together with Gitler?
GefreiterKania
10 Aug 2023 #237
My level is only a nice counterbalance

Oh, yeah? Well, I have bad news for you, Pawian - straight from Newsweek Special Edition hahaha...

1

... xD
mafketis
10 Aug 2023 #238
straight from Newsweek Special Edition hahaha..

Amassing!
pawian
10 Aug 2023 #239
Oh, yeah?

Yeah. You want to keep their monuments although it was Soviets who invaded Poland in 1939 , having wokred out a perfect alliance with Nazi Germans. Both committed horrible crimes. It was Soviets, not Germans, who executed 22.000 Polish POWs, mostly officers. Germans kept POWs in camps till the end of the war. When Soviets chased Germans off from Poland, females aged 5 to 75 had to go into hiding to avoid being raped. And they committed more crimes. Did you forget the case of 600 anticommunist partisans who were rounded by Soviets near Augustów and disappeared without a trace.

My speech will be short: Fekk all Soviet lovers who want to keep their monuments in Poland. If they love Sovietism so much, then can go to Russia and kneel down in front of the Lenin mummy in the Red Square.

straight from Newsweek Special Edition hahaha...

hahahaha, indeed. But I am still active and ready to defend Poland against Soviet lovers. Ha!
GefreiterKania
10 Aug 2023 #240
Soviet lovers

Stop living in a parallel universe; people who are against historical barbarism and destroying monuments commemorating simple soldiers who fought and died for Polish lands, hand-in-hand with Polish soldiers, are hardly "Soviet lovers". But you know this, you are just displaying your usual pawianism again. Typical.


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