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Russian criticism of Poland - Soviet war memorial removal

pawian 213 | 22,358
14 Aug 2023 #271
This was not an option in my question.

I choose my own options. Your options are usually like PiS` questions in the referendum - biased and bipartisan. If I refuse to accept PiS` options, it is natural I can`t accept yours. Ha! Simple???? hahahaha

The Soviets would never let the Americans into Poland.

BS. Your crystal ball is skewed. In 1943 Churchill suggested liberating Europe from the south - Greece, Balkans etc. :):):)
Novichok 4 | 7,505
14 Aug 2023 #272
I see that you don't want to play along.
mafketis 35 | 10,714
14 Aug 2023 #273
you don't want to play along.

Only fools would play along your bad-faith word games.

Life is too short.
Novichok 4 | 7,505
15 Aug 2023 #274
In 1943 Churchill suggested liberating Europe from the south - Greece, Balkans etc. :):)

In 1945, he said screw it. I had enough.
pawian 213 | 22,358
15 Aug 2023 #275
he said screw it

Sort of. But still Poland could have been liberated by western allies if they hadn`t bred the Soviet monster earlier with Lend Lease support.
gumishu 13 | 6,067
15 Aug 2023 #276
if they hadn`t bred the Soviet monster earlier with Lend Lease support.

if they didn't support the Soviet Union, Hitler might as well have won the war
pawian 213 | 22,358
15 Aug 2023 #277
Hitler might as well have won the war

Physically, mentally and morally impossible. Nobody could win the war except righteous Americans. Guess why. :):):)
Novichok 4 | 7,505
15 Aug 2023 #278
We are talking about the decision to fight or not to fight the Germans on Aug 1, 1944.
By that time, the war outcome was known to everybody. All that was needed was to wait... and let the big guys finish the job.

The Uprising was just a me-too event and insignificant in the context of millions of Soviets doing all the heavy lifting in Eastern Europe.

I am absolutely sure that but for the Uprising the Germans would leave Warsaw earlier than they eventually did in January.
pawian 213 | 22,358
17 Aug 2023 #279
Nobody could win the war except righteous Americans. Guess why. :):):)

Because in 1945 Americans developed an atomic bomb. If Germans didn`t surrender, a few of their cities would evaporate like Hiroshima.
pawian 213 | 22,358
9 Sep 2023 #280
Read this story about a clash between Soviet and Polish soldiers in Ostróda in 1946. One of many stories which prove that Soviets liberated us from Germans, indeed but imposed another brutal system of oppression. That`s why we remove the monuments to oppressors today.

Fekk the oppressors, including fake grandpas and also fekk the Sovietophile azholes who believe that Soviets gave us freedom.
Kania, I am talking to you among others.

Skirmish in Ostróda - a skirmish between soldiers of the Polish Army and the Railway Protection Guard (SOK) and drunken Red Army soldiers , which took place in the evening of January 15, 1946

After 7:40 p.m., Marian Dumny, a resident of Ostróda, while shopping in a store near the Ostróda station, was accosted by drunk Soviets, about fifteen of whom were in the store. He was eventually robbed of cash and vodka . He then went to the station and notified the SOK office about these facts. The Deputy Commander of SOK, Bazyli Randoman, sent a three-person patrol to the store along with the injured party, and when he pointed out the perpetrators, the Soviets recocked the weapons. Dumny and part of the patrol escaped, but the commander, Stanisław Dudczak, was captured and beaten unconscious. The Soviets also allegedly refused to pay in the store, which was another reason for the incident [2] . At the sight of another Polish patrol, the Russians, shooting, fled towards the building of the State Repatriation Office . After gathering forces, a strong group of Poles approached the building: soldiers, sokists, militiamen and secret police employees . Six Red Army soldiers opened fire on them and did not stop firing when called. The Polish group retreated beyond the railway line, and the Soviets fled. The Russians were chased by: SOK guard Czesław Kafarski and Polish Army corporal Michał Ludwicki. Both were probably captured by Soviet soldiers and shot after disarmament .

After the discovery of their bodies, the Soviets were rounded up in the station areas and taken to the SOK watchtower. Two of them were shot while trying to escape. Stanisław Dudczak, who was badly beaten, also reached the guard tower. About 30 people gathered in the guardroom, there was an atmosphere of retaliation, and three [2] captured Red Army soldiers were beaten. UB officers ordered the Commander of the SOK, Karol Hochlajter, to keep the Russians at his place until they were transported to the headquarters of the District Office of Public Security. At that time, the Poles received information about the alleged Soviet relief that was coming to Ostróda. Hochlajter ordered to get rid of troublesome prisoners from the station. Most likely, they were taken out and shot in a secluded place. Ultimately, Soviet relief never came [1] .

The place where the bodies of the Soviets were buried is unknown (a total of five of them were killed). Their names are not included in the list at the local cemetery .
pawian 213 | 22,358
17 Sep 2023 #281
A little reminder to all Sovietophiles who dream of keeping Soviet memorials in Poland.

Kania, I am talking to you, among others.

On 17th Sep 1939, Stalin`s Soviet Union, allied with Nazi Germany, attacked Poland from the east direction. Soviets immediately introduced cruel terror in occupied territory which later culminated in the Katyn Massacre. .,30bc1058

When on September 17, 1939, the Red Army - in fulfillment of the provisions of the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact - launched the invasion of Poland, special operational groups of the NKVD moved together with the front troops. Soviet security officers had prepared lists of "enemies of the people" who needed to be arrested as soon as possible.

The lists included, among others, policemen, military personnel, senior public administration officials, judges, prosecutors, political party activists and intelligence agents. In addition, there were also "traitors of the communist idea", such as former members of the Communist Party of Poland, the Communist Party of Western Belarus, the Communist Party of Western Ukraine and refugees from the "workers' Soviet paradise" who in earlier years had sought refuge in Eastern Poland.

In addition to the NKVD, in the initial period of the occupation, numerous arrests were also made by militias or workers' guards, and even by the Red Army itself. In these cases, a common criterion for detaining a given person was the "hand test". As was the case during the Bolshevik Revolution, the hands were checked to see if they showed signs of physical work. If not, the unfortunate person was considered an "enemy of the people".

Professor Włodzimierz Bonusiak in his work "Population and economic policy of the USSR in the occupied Polish lands in 1939-1941" states that according to Soviet archives, by the end of September 1939, 3,914 people were arrested in Western Ukraine alone, including:

gendarmes, policemen, official and secret intelligence and police agents - 2,539,
landowners and bourgeoisie - 293,
officers and settlers - 381,
activists of UNDO, OUN and other parties - 144,
petlurists, participants of bandit groups - 74,
remaining - 483 people.

The situation was similar in Western Belarus. Already on October 7, 2,708 people were put behind bars there.
They included, among others, 241 members of political parties, 128 "kulaks", 30 fugitives from the USSR and 171 police agents. The growing spiral of persecution is best evidenced by the fact that two weeks later there were already 4,315 detainees.

pawian 213 | 22,358
17 Sep 2023 #282
Thousands of those arrested also had to be held somewhere. In December 1939, there were 17 "general" NKVD prisons in Western Belarus. 25 similar facilities were opened in Western Ukraine. By June 1941, the total number of NKVD prisons in the incorporated territories of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth had increased to 46.

In theory, they could accommodate 18,000. 562 prisoners, but as Professor Krzysztof Jasiewicz emphasizes in the book "Poland 1939-1945. Personnel losses and victims of repression under two occupations":

"The borderland prisons (as well as those deep in the USSR) were extremely overcrowded. In former Polish arrests or prisons, cells intended for several people usually held several dozen people. The density was so high that prisoners sleeping on the floor had to turn around at the same time.

Standard food consisted of several hundred grams of low-quality bread, about half a liter of watery soup, called "bałanda" in the prison and gulag jargon, and kipiatok, i.e. boiling water; sometimes there was a symbolic portion of groats with meat or fish waste."

Sanitary conditions were also offensive to human dignity. Prisoners very rarely had the opportunity to wash themselves. As a rule, there were no toilets in the cells. Inmates had to meet their physiological needs using buckets called "parashas", which were emptied once a day. All this meant that "the real plague was insects, especially lice, bedbugs and fleas." Disinfections carried out from time to time did not help much in this situation.

In addition to standard prisons, there were so-called special reception and distribution cells of the NKVD, which could accommodate from 50 to 100 inmates. They were usually located in security buildings. We can learn about the conditions there, for example, by reading the memories of Michał Krupa. He fell into the hands of the NKVD while trying to illegally cross the border. After a brutal interrogation, he was taken to the basement, where there were:

"(...) no windows or any ventilation. There was no floor, only the dirt ground. Covering my nose and mouth with pieces of a tattered shirt, I realized that this unbearable stench came from the pile of human excrement, vomit and urine that covered practically the entire floor of the basement "

pawian 213 | 22,358
17 Sep 2023 #283
Unlike the lands that came under German occupation, no new laws were established in the Eastern Borderlands that would specifically serve to punish Poles. The existing regulations, including the notorious Article 58 of the USSR Criminal Code, were sufficient.

It contained as many as 14 paragraphs, covering, among others, treason, espionage, terror, sabotage, sabotage, providing assistance to enemies of the USSR, providing assistance to the international bourgeoisie and propaganda activities against the Soviet empire. Moreover, as Professor Bonusiak emphasizes in his book "Poland during World War II":

"The interpretative possibilities of Article 58 were significantly expanded by Article 19 of the Penal Code, allowing for punishment for 'preparation of an act' (or even the very intention), and Article 16 of the Penal Code, introducing the concept of per analogiam - used when it was impossible to establish a charge that was provided for in the Code "

As a result, the accused could be convicted without any evidence.Moreover, in Soviet times the law operated retroactively. Therefore, citizens of the Second Polish Republic could be tried for alleged crimes committed before September 1939.

People's courts and Special Colleges attached to the NKVD were responsible for passing sentences. They were established in 1934. Initially, they could impose an administrative sentence of 10 years, and then even 25 years in a labor camp. From 1937, their powers were expanded to include death sentences by shooting and confiscation of the convict's property. There was no appeal against their decisions - usually made without the defendant's participation.

pawian 213 | 22,358
17 Sep 2023 #284
Soviets immediately introduced cruel terror in occupied territory which later culminated in the Katyn Massacre. .

The decision of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the Bolshevik Party of March 5, 1940 was crucial for the fate of Polish prisoners in the Borderlands. Pursuant to it, the NKVD was to "consider in a special procedure, imposing the highest penalty - shooting" in reference to these groups: :

14,700 former Polish officers, officials, landowners, policemen, intelligence officers, gendarmes, settlers and prison guards in prisoner of war camps.

11,000 members of various espionage and sabotage counter-revolutionary organizations, former landowners, manufacturers, former Polish officers, officials and deserters arrested and imprisoned in the western regions of Ukraine and Belarus.

Ultimately, the "special troika" of the NKVD, which included Vsevolod Merkulov (the first deputy of Lavrenty Beria), Leonid Bashtakov (head of the special department) and Bogdan Kobulov (head of the administrative and economic department of the NKVD) issued 21,857 death sentences in April and May 1940. The victims of the Katyn massacre included 14,700 prisoners of war and 7,305 prisoners in prisons in the occupied Polish borderlands.

It should be emphasized here that in Soviet realities the status of Polish prisoners of war held in Kozelsk, Starobielsk and Ostashkov is difficult to clearly determine. The authorities did not respect the rules that should apply to prisoners of war, often treating officers as ordinary prisoners.

Some of them ended up in camps after being detained by the NKVD. There were also cases where officers taken prisoner in September 1939 were later transported to prisons and then subjected to brutal interrogations.

According to preserved documents, regardless of the Katyn massacre, a total of over 1,200 prisoners in the hands of the NKVD were sentenced to be shot. To this you should also add about 10 thousand. prisoners murdered in June 1941 during the Soviets' escape from the advancing Wehrmacht. However, the death sentence was not the most common punishment. Most of the arrestees were sentenced to stay in labor camps, most often for 3.5 to 8 years.

There are still disputes as to how many inhabitants of Kresy were arrested by the Soviets between September 1939 and June 1941. The preserved NKVD documentation mentions about 110,000. people. Of this, approximately 60 percent were Poles. However, some researchers believe that the data is significantly underestimated. According to Professor Krzysztof Jasiewicz, there could have been as many as 150,000 prisoners. In turn, the number of dead and murdered was from 35 thousand. up to 50 thousand.

pawian 213 | 22,358
17 Sep 2023 #285
In turn, the number of dead and murdered was from 35 thousand. up to 50 thousand.

Despite those tragic facts, some Russo and Sovietophiles among Poles still opt for keeping monuments to those glorious Soviets in Poland. Yuk!! AmaSSing!
Alien 19 | 3,850
17 Sep 2023 #286
those glorious Soviets in Poland.

And is Lenin still standing in Poronin?
pawian 213 | 22,358
17 Sep 2023 #287
How do you think???
Novichok 4 | 7,505
17 Sep 2023 #288
Soviet leaders are one thing. Men who died liberating Poland from the Germans are another. Many of them hated Stalin.

In DC, we have a monument to honor those who died in Vietnam regardless of who and how they killed - kids included. We even have streets named after presidents who ordered those good men to go and kill people who never did us any wrong. Now we want their embassy in DC.
pawian 213 | 22,358
18 Sep 2023 #289
Men who died liberating Poland from the Germans are another.

I suppose some part of the "liberating" force had been earlier involved in invading Poland in 1939. ):):) Fekk them all and their grandpas too!!
Novichok 4 | 7,505
18 Sep 2023 #290
My dear pawian...You are so irresistibly cute when you abandon common sense and enter the world of poetry and emotions where Ptak is king.

With me, that sh*it won't fly...

Just as I always react to the last post and ignore the insults from the past, let me suggest that when you are drowning (now I am channeling Ptak) and a guy throws you a rope, even if he killed your family and raped your wife, you grab that rope. If you don't, you will die and will not be able to kill the sob later.

That was good, Novi...Actually, brilliant...
pawian 213 | 22,358
18 Sep 2023 #291
You are so irresistibly cute

Hug me, then! Kiss me, Kate!! hahahaha

a guy throws you a rope, even if he killed your family and raped your wife, you grab that rope.

Yes. But do we have to erect monuments to murderers and rapists who helped us coz such was their political calculation at the time????
That is why all nasty Soviet monuments will be pulled down and nobody can stop it. Even if 1000 Sovietophiles like Kania or Bobko with his grandpa gathered there to prevent the dismantling. hahahahaha

Actually, brilliant..

Sorry for pulling you down by your legs onto earth again but it wasn`t..... :):):):)
Mr Grunwald 33 | 2,005
18 Sep 2023 #292
You fail to realise that a sentence written like: "Soviets died by liberating Poland" is akin to:

"Japanese soldiers liberated American prisoners from their misery of belonging to capitalistic decadence by decapitating them and saving their honor"

If you have a hard time understanding that comparison, I don't know what will
mafketis 35 | 10,714
18 Sep 2023 #293
"Soviets died by liberating Poland" is akin to:

The burglar broke his arm when he fell through the skylight so the owner of the house should be liable for his medical bills....
Novichok 4 | 7,505
19 Sep 2023 #294
You fail to realise that a sentence written like: "Soviets died by liberating Poland" is akin to:

Let me help you with your overly patriotic logic...

From my perspective, or, to put it crudely, as far as my own ass goes, Poland does not matter. What mattered to me was that the Soviets did me or anyone I knew no harm. I actually liked their war movies.

Call what you want ... liberation, occupation, subjugation...the fact is that the day the Soviets told the German Auschwitz crew that the gig was up, the smoke and the stench stopped.

For this, I am personally grateful to the "barbarians". I like clean air.

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