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Russian criticism of Poland - Soviet war memorial removal


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
4 Jul 2015  #1
Russia said on Saturday it was outraged by Poland's destruction of a Soviet war monument, warning Warsaw of the "most negative consequences" after what it said was a flagrant violation of an agreement between the two countries on protecting memorial sites.

Poland has been one of the most vocal critics of Russia's annexation of Ukraine's Crimea peninsula in 2014. Russia and Poland share a history of conflicts and the disagreement over war memorials is likely to add to tensions.

"Warsaw must finally understand that the 'war of monuments' unleashed in Poland may have the most negative consequences, for which the responsibility lies squarely with its initiators," the Russian foreign ministry said in a statement.

uk.reuters.com/article/2015/07/04/uk-russia-poland-monument-idUKKCN0PE0I120150704
JollyRomek 7 | 481
4 Jul 2015  #2
Russian criticism of Poland - Soviet war memorial removal

This wasn't the original title of the thread and it was only edited after the initial editing period of a few minutes available to normal users.

@ Mods, why was the title of this thread changed?

No word about Poland was enough
Lolek222 - | 80
4 Jul 2015  #3
Yep, Russian do have a problem and obsession with Poland.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,625
4 Jul 2015  #4
I imagine Poland would be first to complain if Polish war memorials were desecrated elsewhere.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
4 Jul 2015  #5
Poland would be first to complain

Yes, but Poland never played the role of one of history's two greatest monsters. Would you also like to see a monument to fallen Gestapo agents "murdered" by the "polnische Banditen or to the heroes of the holocaust -- the Germans who designed and ran the Nazi death camps?

P.S:One can plainly see that upon your miraculous re-emergence on PF you have fallen exactly into step with your fellow-Brit Bullies as a Cathophobe, homophile and Pole-basher. Par for the course, I reckon.
Lolek222 - | 80
4 Jul 2015  #6
Who is building theri war memorials in foreign countries?
smurf 39 | 1,982
4 Jul 2015  #7
your fellow-Brit Bullies as a Cathophobe, homophile and Pole-basher.

Isn't it charming how quickly your true colors shine through. You start a topic and then abuse those who dare go against your biased opinion.

You are a lovely person

*hugs

On topic, Poland said it wouldn't remove such memorials, Russia has every right to be pi$$ed. There are tons of Communist graveyeards around where I live, they are respected and are kept in good condition. Poland desperately wants to poke the bear, thinking it has the support of NATO. Ukraine thought the same.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,625
4 Jul 2015  #8
Who is building theri war memorials in foreign countries?

There's a British war memorial in Poznań, for instance.

Poland has a war memorial in Berlin.
jon357 63 | 14,122
5 Jul 2015  #9
Poland has a war memorial in Berlin.

Exactly. If one type of monument should be respected, it's war memorials. They aren't about the politics or the politicians, they are about the ordinary men and women (and animals) who lost their lives.
Crow 137 | 7,588
5 Jul 2015  #10
Soviet war memorial removal

Poles always complicate in attempt of desperation to satisfy all their neighbors and world powers. But primarily, Anglo dependable Polish politicians force anti-Russian stance of Poland when that suits to their sponsors.

Poland should have consultations with Serbia before doing this. i mean, later, when things become ugly, Poles would anyway come to us Serbs to play role of mediator. Polish apples are good example of it. Poland inaugurated sanctions to Russia to satisfy Anglos and then when Russians reacted with sanctions on Poland, Polish apples reappeared in Russia thanks to Serbs.

So, it would be much better that Poles and Serbs coordinate in advance and not to act as moronic tango partners. Its humiliation.
Dougpol1 30 | 2,935
5 Jul 2015  #11
here are tons of Communist graveyeards around where I live, they are respected and are kept in good condition

Mmm - those are of course sacrosant Smurf - but I don't agree I'm afraid about protecting those ludicrous Soviet "memorials" all over Silesia and Zaglebia. Firmly in the right-wing camp on this one - those edifices with mock tanks and the rest are not memorials but (failed) triumphalism.
FlaglessPole 4 | 669
5 Jul 2015  #12
Firmly in the right-wing camp on this one - those edifices with mock tanks and the rest are not memorials but (failed) triumphalism.

yep that's exactly what they are
weeg
5 Jul 2015  #13
Poland has said the agreement about graves, not memorials.

You can argue that memorials in a grave yard is ok, but anything celebrating the Soviet Union, Russian-Polish 'friendship' etc is fair game.

Even if the Russians tore down the Katyn memorial, I'd support the complete removal of everything glorifying the Soviet occupation. The Russians are our mortal enemy and we should expect nothing less from them.

Polonius, you ok if Russia does the same?

They aren't about the politics or the politicians, they are about the ordinary men and women (and animals) who lost their lives.

Please, are you trying to be serious? Since when has Russia leaders given a s*** about its people? Russia is using the 'great patriotic war' as a propaganda tool. These memorials are to stake ownership of an empire, like a dog ******* on a tree.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,625
5 Jul 2015  #14
Exactly. If one type of monument should be respected, it's war memorials

Yes, I'd rather they were left alone regardless of what the intention is behind them. It just seems wrong to remove someone's war memorial somehow - especially when you consider the huge human sacrifice involved.

Even if the Russians tore down the Katyn memorial, I'd support the complete removal of everything glorifying the Soviet occupation.

Wouldn't it be better if no-one removed anything?

If the Polish memorial from Katyń was declared off limits, it would hurt. We might find the Soviet memorials to be tasteless and so on, but it hurts them too.
jon357 63 | 14,122
5 Jul 2015  #15
Since when has Russia leaders given a s*** about its people?

It's an irrelevance. Memorials to the fallen are above politics, no matter how governments want to exploit them.

It just seems wrong to remove someone's war memorial somehow.

Exactly.
Marsupial - | 888
5 Jul 2015  #16
The memorials to the fallen are a direct result of politics and not somehow above it. The fallen are dead due to politics, the monument would.have been installed by.politics, now removed by politics. Next argued over by politics.
jon357 63 | 14,122
5 Jul 2015  #17
The memorials to the fallen are a direct result of politics and not somehow above it.

Yet they are important to those regardless of nationality, politics etc. They should be respected unconditionally.
weeg
5 Jul 2015  #18
You would be happy with a memorial to Hitler or the SS?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,625
5 Jul 2015  #19
To fallen German soldiers, why not?

Actually, I recall that Poland destroyed a German war memorial too in the past, although that was during Stalinism and therefore hard to say if it was done by Poles or Soviets.

Anyway, there are also plenty of German war memorials in Silesia, so why are we now selectively removing some and not others?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
5 Jul 2015  #20
removing some and not others

Local pulbic opinion may have something to do with acceptance or rejection of a public eyesore. Not everybody likes to see hammers and sickles and red stars on their way to work or school.
weeg
5 Jul 2015  #21
Only one is glorifying in its history as an empire, openly declaring that it wants that empire back and uses the war as a justification for its actions.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
5 Jul 2015  #22
Only

Only local public opinion is sovereign. As it is, there is too much centrlaism in Poland. People live in their local communities which should reflect local needs and preferences. Poles are American wannabees but somehow they don't emulate American local democracy. American localities can vote to make their community "dry" (no alcohol sold within the town's limits) or "wet". They can vote to incresase school taxes or not.
jon357 63 | 14,122
5 Jul 2015  #23
Only one is glorifying in its history as an empire, openly declaring that it wants that empire back and uses the war as a justification for its actions.

Doubtless true - and there for all to see. Destroying memorials to the fallen just comes across as cheap and mean-spirited, regardless of the geo-politics of the countries involved.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
5 Jul 2015  #24
Destroying memorials

What about those displaying swastikas and sickle and hammer emblems -- both banned under Polish law? You're the gung-ho legalist after all!
Harry
5 Jul 2015  #25
It is most certainly not illegal to display a hammer or a sickle or even the two of them together.
jon357 63 | 14,122
5 Jul 2015  #26
Indeed - and that emblem is on artefacts sale in Warsaw right now as well as existing monuments.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
5 Jul 2015  #27
right now

You and your fellow-Brit bully legalist should reprot this to the police without delay. The law is being violated, innit?

most certainly not illegal

WRONG AS USUAL!

arslege.pl/propagowanie-faszyzmu-lub-totalitaryzmu/k1/a292
Lolek222 - | 80
5 Jul 2015  #28
British

Make no difference, every country have the right to decide what monuments are being wanted on their soil.
Russian conquerers monuments are not neeeded nor wanted, only traitor or a fool would have claimed otherwise.
Harry
5 Jul 2015  #29
WRONG AS USUAL!

Oh dear, you seem to have completely overlooked the small but crucial fact that that law was struck down in 2011 due to it breaching the Polish constitution. Have a read here:

trybunal.gov.pl/rozprawy/komunikaty-prasowe/komunikaty-po/art/2628-nowelizacja-kodeksu-karnego/s/k-1110

The law is being violated, innit?

Polish law is most certainly not being broken by Soviet war memorials displaying the hammer & sickle, as is made clear by the link given above.
Levi 12 | 450
10 Nov 2015  #30
While i agree with the removal of all Hammer and Sickle emblems (Leftists can cry, but this is Polish Law, deal with it, idiots), i think that the monument itself should not be removed (Only everything that displays the murderous Hammer and Sickle)

I visited it last week, and while i would not call it a piece of art, it is also not making anything bad for anyone.

And at THIS time specifically, i don't think that it worth offend Russia in this way while they are doing such a great job kicking the asses of the Islamists.


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