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Russian criticism of Poland - Soviet war memorial removal


Harry
10 Nov 2015  #31
While i agree with the removal of all Hammer and Sickle emblems (Leftists can cry, but this is Polish Law, deal with it, idiots)

Polish law does not ban displaying the hammer and sickle, simple as that. You really do need to learn a little about Polish law.
Levi 12 | 450
10 Nov 2015  #32
csmonitor.com/World/Global-News/2010/0120/Poland-Your-Che-Guevara-T-shirt-can-land-you-in-jail

It is illegal. The fact that it is not fully enforced doesn't make it less illegal.

Since 2010.

And Again Harry, you are wrong.
Harry
10 Nov 2015  #33
It is illegal. The fact that it is not fully enforced doesn't make it less illegal.

Oh dear, you seem to have completely overlooked the small but crucial fact that that law was struck down in 2011 due to it breaching the Polish constitution. Have a read here:

trybunal.gov.pl/rozprawy/komunikaty-prasowe/komunikaty-po/art/2628-nowelizacja-kodeksu-karnego/s/k-1110

You should make an effort to find out what Polish law actually says, otherwise it won't be long until you break Polish law (again).
Crow 137 | 7,595
10 Nov 2015  #34
We are very close to moment when would Polish politics staring to speak more balanced on all European powers that had impact on Polish past. Truth would then reduce British, French and USA influences in Poland, same way as before that Russian and German influences were reduced.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
4 Jul 2016  #35
Merged: Polish government finds compromise on Red Army memorials

The Polish government has struck upon a compromise to rid Poland's streets, squares and parks of Soviet-era eyesores without overly antagonizing Moscow. So far, efforts to dismantle Red Army memorials has repeatedly triggered protests in Russia and soured Poland's relations with its huge eastern neighbor. Russians view Poles as ingrates who forgot that the Red Army had liberated them from the Nazis, whereas Poles regard the Soviets as yet another occupation force. The memorials will be moved to Borne Sulinowo, a town in NW Poland which served as a secret Soviet military base between 1945 and 1992. It remains to be seen whether the Polish saying "Wilk syty i owca cała" will coem true.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,423
4 Jul 2016  #36
Yeah good riddance, at least the soviets will be able to visit the museum to remind them of how evil they once were, and while we are at it lets demolish the Palace of culture, another reminder of soviet oppression, If they moan about it we can gift them back the rubble.

Oh while I am at it we should also have an exhibition at the museum, remembering those who died in Siberia, Katyn, and those disappeared during Soviet occupation .

Oh If I have missed anything please chip in.
smurf 39 | 1,982
4 Jul 2016  #37
It remains to be seen whether the Polish saying "Wilk syty i owca cała" will coem true.

Not a Polish saying.
I'm not a Christian and even I know it was Jesus that said it first

The phrase originates in a sermon by Jesus recorded in the Christian New Testament

Jesus living nearly 2000 years ago, while Poland is a very young country, only being 1000 years old.

Anyway, your "news" (a week old) seems to leave out the fact that these memorials will be housed in a new open air museum. An idea stolen/borrowed from the Hungarians who have this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memento_Park

And Prague which has this:
muzeumkomunismu.cz

Embrace your past baby, it's the only way you can learn from it.
I mean, look at PiS, they learned loads from the Reds, so much that they're repeating their style of ruling
Wulkan - | 3,251
4 Jul 2016  #38
I mean, look at PiS, they learned loads from the Reds, so much that they're repeating their style of ruling

You must be confusing PiS with PO
jon357 63 | 14,122
4 Jul 2016  #39
I mean, look at PiS, they learned loads from the Reds, so much that they're repeating their style of ruling

Indeed. It's absolutely who they are.

these memorials will be housed in a new open air museum

Which will doubtless be very respectful, especially since these are memorials to fallen soldiers.
smurf 39 | 1,982
4 Jul 2016  #40
You'd expect so, the one outside Budapest is a bit different though, it's more kinda of representing the artistic value of the statues, but of course there are the usual suspects of Russia propaganda and also the so-called heroes of Hungarian communism.

Pretty small though, you'd get around the whole thing in less than 30 mins, but it's interesting.

This one was my favourites, it's huge.

Some Communist
dolnoslask 5 | 2,423
4 Jul 2016  #41
"respectful, especially since these are memorials to fallen soldiers.", Murdering rapists, source my family.
jon357 63 | 14,122
4 Jul 2016  #42
All of them?

Most were just ordinary men and women who would rather have been at home.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,423
4 Jul 2016  #43
It is no good viewing history through a modern day pair of eyes, Russia didn't agree to the Geneva convention, one of the main reasons was to do with providing lists of prisoners.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
4 Jul 2016  #44
they learned loads from the Reds

Rather the elitist PO reflected the commie view of the red bourgeoisie and the lupenproletarian masses. A communist lexicon for communist party leaders informed that: cognac is the drink of the working class, sipped by the lips of their leaders.

Koniak to napój klasy robotniczej spijany ustami jej przywódców.
Lenka 2 | 1,422
4 Jul 2016  #45
Well Dolno, my grandpa fought in the war and he always said they all were soldiers just like him. Germans, Russians quite often didn't want to be there. That's the soldier's fate. If he who fought with them could view them like that I think I have his blessing in saying the same.

They were just soldiers that died far away from home.
smurf 39 | 1,982
4 Jul 2016  #46
Rather the elitist PO reflected the commie view of the red bourgeoisie and the lupenproletarian masses

blah blah blah, high falutin gibberish

Koniak to napój klasy robotniczej spijany ustami jej przywódców.

Rule Number 1

1. All posts must be in English (unless they are related to translations or explanations of the Polish language; or are posted in the Off-Topic forum).

Stop breaking forum rules
jon357 63 | 14,122
4 Jul 2016  #47
They were just soldiers that died far away from home

Very true. War memorials are to the soldiers, not to their politicians. Otherwise pretty well all war memorials round the world would need removing.
Harry
4 Jul 2016  #48
An idea stolen/borrowed from the Hungarians who have this:

Don't forget Poland has something a bit like that already, in Kozlowce, near Lublin.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,423
4 Jul 2016  #49
Back in those days Britain had empire and all the wealth derived from it , the Russians had their vision of empire and Poland and its spoils would be part of that.

The Russian soldiers back in those days had the same vision, my father and Grandfather said the majority saw the war as a gateway to personal wealth, If you look further than the murder and theft in Poland look at Silesia where the rapped murdered and stole from the German civilians.

My Grandfather knew them well when he fought against them in the Bolshevik war in 1919, they gave no mercy, anyone who did not hold to their beliefs was to be put to the sword, just like Isis sound familiar.

Those who died far away from home had their pockets stuffed with stolen gold.

There were many cases in Silesia where Russian soldiers died after the war had ended, usually fighting over their ill gotten gains.
smurf 39 | 1,982
4 Jul 2016  #50
War memorials are to the soldiers, not to their politicians

I totally understand why they're bring removed.
In Ireland we had loads of British statues that meant nothing to the people.
Nelson's Column being the most famous....probably becasue it was bombed. There was a massive Queen Victoria stature for years outside Leinster House, and she hung round like a bad smell until the 1980s when the Irish government finally offloaded it to the shackle draggers down under.

The irony of the British Queen being "transported" to Australia by ship was not lost on the Irish media

Gotta love the irony of that :D
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Queen_Victoria,_Sydney

The Canadians said they'd take it before that but didn't want to pay :)

However, when it comes to statues that commemorate soldiers that's a different kettle of fish and I agree with jon & Lenka wholeheartedly, thankfully the vast majority of ordinary, decent people think the same.

Don't forget Poland has something a bit like that already, in Kozlowce, near Lublin.

Oh didn't know that, if I'm ever in that neck of the woods I'll look it up
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,671
4 Jul 2016  #51
the Irish government finally offloaded it to the shackle draggers down under.

'shackle draggers' ha ha ha , love it...:D
dolnoslask 5 | 2,423
4 Jul 2016  #52
"In Ireland we had loads of British statues that meant nothing to the people." Just symbols of empire and the oppression of the Irish people, same in Poland with the Soviets.
jon357 63 | 14,122
4 Jul 2016  #53
Remember that they're government things. War memorials are a whole different thing. I hope they won't remove the one on Zwirki I Wigury.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,423
4 Jul 2016  #54
I don't have an issue with soviet war graves and statues of the fallen Russian soldier, if there was one on top of my hill I would tend it. In the same way the graves of the fallen are tended to at Casino.

I do have issues with any statue that glorifies the Soviets as some kind of saviors, especially officers that have subsequently been proved as war criminals.

I ask the question who tends the graves of my Family murdered in Siberia, is their any mark of their very existence left .
Lenka 2 | 1,422
4 Jul 2016  #55
look at Silesia where the rapped murdered and stole from the German civilians.

I come from Silesia. That granddad I was talking about was Silesian. While it's true their presence was no picnic I don't understand how it would change anything. Do you think Nazis were sweet and helped old grannies through the road?

And believe me there were plenty of German soldiers that believed in the glory of Germany, especially when the war just started and they were going towards Russia and not back.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,423
4 Jul 2016  #56
" Do you think Nazis were sweet and helped old grannies ", that is a whole different kettle of fish / rats, I wouldn't mind debating, but we are talking about the Soviets here, nothing more than a marauding rabble of murderers.

Where are the graves of the murdered / disappeared in Poland during the purges after WWII, Russia should give up its records so the families can have some peace and a place to mourn and place flowers
jon357 63 | 14,122
4 Jul 2016  #57
A lot of them were just 18 year old conscripts. There against their will.
Lenka 2 | 1,422
4 Jul 2016  #58
Well as you mentioned Silesia there is a church near my town where on the wall you have a place to put flowers and mourn Wermaht soldiers. No one is bothered by it. It's again a monument to the soldiers that died and not Nazi's policies.

I think you are a bit blinded by your personal experience. If your family died in a concentration camp and not Sabiria you'd be talking about them. And I don't believe Soviet soldiers were any better or worse than any other(of course the ppl giving orders are a different matter). The only thing is they fought on the side that ruined Poland (the same as Nazis)
dolnoslask 5 | 2,423
4 Jul 2016  #59
Soviets having a picnic in East Germany , could be up to 2 million rapes.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany
Harry
4 Jul 2016  #60
but we are talking about the Soviets here, nothing more than a marauding rabble of murderers.

An interesting description for the likes of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.


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