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Should Poland organize March of the Living in Volhynia and Eastern Lesser Poland?


MyMom 6 | 137
24 Aug 2011 #1
Shouldn't we take example in how Jews commemorate their victims? Shouldn't we make young generations remember those events, just like Jews do?
A nation which forgets its history is doomed to go through it again.
The genocide of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Lesser Poland perpetrated by Ukrainian nationalists bears striking resemblance to Holocaust in that its goal was to physically exterminate whole population including women and children. You may think that the Ukrainians "just" wanted to make Poles leave their villages, where they lived since middle ages - that was unfortunately not the case since UPA officers openly asked Poles to stay and even gave them "guarantees" on paper reassuring them that no harm will be done.

If you know Polish - take a look at this documentary about the Massacre of Wola Ostrowiecka:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Wola_Ostrowiecka

Towards the end of that documentary a guy recalls how his grandfather was murdered because he couldn't believe that Ukrainians could be murdering Poles for no reason (other than that they were Poles), so he went to talk with them and obviously - was murdered.

The other issue is: how should Poland honour the memory of those Ukrainians who didn't join UPA but instead saved Poles by hiding them from their countrymen? Should Poland also take example from the Jewish "Righteous among the Nations" initiative?
gumishu 11 | 5,449
24 Aug 2011 #2
Should Poland organize March of the Living in Volhynia and Eastern Lesser Poland?

sure - go and pave the way :)

Shouldn't we take example in how Jews commemorate their victims? Shouldn't we make young generations remember those events, just like Jews do?

to achieve what - what do you think Jews are achieving judging from the devastation their youth leave behind in Polish hotels
plgrl
24 Aug 2011 #3
I think that those kind of initiative would be read in wrong way by locals, as a kind of provocation therefore cause harm, certaintly not bring peace.

But you're right that young Poles aren't taught about that on history lessons.
gumishu 11 | 5,449
24 Aug 2011 #4
I am not sure such things should be taught in school, neither Nazi crimes should be taught in school - there is far too much history in schools actually while we live in present and not the past
postinhabitant
6 Nov 2011 #5
Stop discussing and comemorating the past will you all,,,Jesus get over it!
The sooner you stop moaning and groaning about what happened the sooner it will be unlikely to happen again.
I think its a real shame on your country how your unale to forgive, forget and move on
Ironside 49 | 10,626
6 Nov 2011 #6
there is no logic behind your statment.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
7 Nov 2011 #7
Wasn't the total exterminated in the order of 600,000 over a period of six weeks?

My father was born in the area but was living much further south and was 'lucky' to have been deported to Archangel by 1942.
Palivec - | 380
7 Nov 2011 #8
The genocide of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Lesser Poland perpetrated by Ukrainian nationalists bears striking resemblance to Holocaust.

Was it based on the ideology of racial superiority, with the goal to annihilate the entire race, and not only the entire race but also to destroy the culture?
Vlad123 7 | 204
29 Nov 2012 #9
There remain some dark spots in this story.First of all in this part of Western Ukraine in 1939 lived approximately 2.2 million of Poles and only 3.5 millions of Ukrainians.Do not is seem to you that it would be quite suicidal idea for Ukrainians to wage full scale war on Poles at such population breakdown?And especially taking in account that Poles were usually better organized and had more money to purchase weapon and ammo?And what was any sense to start such suicidal war on Poles before it would be clear if Ukraine have any chances to become independent?Do they seriously believed that Stalin will grant independence to it?And why Ukrainians didn`t expect that 2.2 millions of Poles will not cause any armed and organized resistance?Especially if we take in account that before 1939 Western Ukraine was for decades under Polish administration (occupation) and some systems for a case of Ukrainian violence and uprisings should be perfected long time ago.There were not only small villages in Volhynia but also cities like Rovno,Dubno, etc.

Were there any casualties among Ukrainians?And where exacly Ukrainians took weapon and amunition in number sufficient to kill millions of people,and what exactly weapon did they have?
FlaglessPole 4 | 669
29 Nov 2012 #10
Oh man you're at it again, moaning and whining. Understandably a pang of national guilt that invariably arises in the face of such horrific crimes like the massacre in Volhyn is not nothing enviable. But please be a good pioneer, stop sniveling, use your red scarf for something constructive like blowing your nose and move the fvck on.
Lwow Eagle 4 | 51
4 Dec 2015 #11
First of all in this part of Western Ukraine in 1939 lived approximately 2.2 million of Poles and only 3.5 millions of Ukrainians.

Ethnic Poles were not the majority here, but ethnic Ukrainians were not either. Ethnic "Ukrainians" were a subgroup or Ruthenians. Many Ruthenians had rejected the Ukrainian ethnicity before WWII. Some had intermarried with the Poles for hundreds of years, or claimed to be descendants of the Ruthenian szlachta and were Polonophiles. Others were Carpo-Rusyns, like the Lemkos, who spoke a different language and rejected the Ukrainians as chauvinists attempting destroy their unique language and culture. After the war and the ethnic cleansing by Stalin and the Ukrainian fascists, these Ruthenians were declared to have been Ukrainians who just weren't aware that they were. Since the Soviets also destroyed the periodicals archive in Lwow, it is difficult to "prove" what existed there prewar. (Pre-war residents have different recollections of events than post-war communist historians.) Communist historians and Western historians predisposed to discount the legitimacy of the Second Polish Republic's borders have accepted the Stalinist orthodoxy of Rutheinian being a synonym for the Ukrainian endonym. Slowly this is changing. Dr. Robert Magosci has been at the forefront of changing this perception:

Especially if we take in account that before 1939 Western Ukraine was for decades under Polish administration (occupation) and some systems for a case of Ukrainian violence and uprisings should be perfected long time ago.There were not only small villages in Volhynia but also cities like Rovno,Dubno, etc.
Were there any casulties among Ukrainians?And where exacly Ukrainians took weapon and amunition in number sufficient to kill millions of people,and what exactly weapon did they have?

britannica/topic/Rusyn-people

Wolyn had been under Russian administration since the last partition of Poland. Its lesser nobility were so oppressed by the greater nobility that they intermarried with the peasants and Ruthanized. The people in Wolyn were overwhelmingly Orthodox in contrast to the Catholic Ruthenain Galicians. Modern Russian social scientists distinguish the two groups as two distinct ethnic groups. Remember that Stalin forced the Uniates to renounce the Pope after annexing Galicia.
adsalk 1 | 17
8 Mar 2016 #12
Edited, moved from
... Bandera? These people deny the genocide of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia and are enemies of Poland.
Szalawa 3 | 248
9 Mar 2016 #13
Some had intermarried with the Poles for hundreds of years, or claimed to be descendants of the Ruthenian szlachta and were Polonophiles.

Haha :-) yep sounds like me, my family history traces back to Wolyn, I don't consider myself Ukrainian
Lwow Eagle 4 | 51
9 Mar 2016 #14
Before WWII, "Ukrainian" was a political party and movement among many Ruthenians, but it was not quite an ethnicity. After the war, the Ukrainian identity was forced on the remainder who survived or weren't deported.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
9 Mar 2016 #15
Before WWII, "Ukrainian" was a political party and movement among many Ruthenians, but it was not quite an ethnicity.

That's not really true. Poland more or less used the usual political tricks to try and deny the existence of Ukrainians, and the Ruthenian claim was used to downplay their nationality. Ukrainians more or less abandoned the usage of Ruthenian by end of the 19th century, and the forced "Ruthenian" tag was a political game.
Lwow Eagle 4 | 51
9 Mar 2016 #16
Nope. The Catholic Ruthenians remained Ruthenians until Stalin and the Ukrainian fascists invaded and began their crimes against humanity contrary to the Ukrainian neo-nationalism you are promoting here.

Ukrainians more or less abandoned the usage of Ruthenian by end of the 19th century, and the forced "Ruthenian" tag was a political game.

delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
9 Mar 2016 #17
That's such a revisionist view of things that it's not even funny.

The Ukrainian National Revival was already in place by the mid 19th century, and the acceptance of an Ukrainian identity was complete by the end of the century. Ruthenian was used by the Polish to try and keep them divided.
Ironside 49 | 10,626
9 Mar 2016 #18
That's such a revisionist view of things

Bah revisionists, that is simply a factual summary.
Lwow Eagle 4 | 51
9 Mar 2016 #19
There could be no "revival" for something that was novel, and not accepted by many of the people others insisted were members of that new ethnonym. The term Ruthenian was used by the Great Powers at Versailles to distinguish the Catholics from the Orthodox. (See Margaret MacMillan's Paris 1919: Six Months That Changed the World, "It was not clear were the Ruthenians belonged...The Ruthenian delegates who managed to get to Paris by the spring of 1919 could not say what they wanted." [at pg. 225] ) That distinction is maintained by modern Russian social scientists. Historians Christopher Hann and Paul Robert Magosci, among others, also disagree with your Ukrainian neo-nationalist point of view and opinion.

The Ukrainian National Revival was already in place by the mid 19th century, and the acceptance of an Ukrainian identity was complete by the end of the century. Ruthenian was used by the Polish to try and keep them divided.

Truly, the revisionism came when millions of people were deported to Siberia and Kazakhstan, murdered for asserting that they were not Ukrainians as the local fascists insisted, or refusing to participate in their pogroms, (which put even the Nazis to shame by attacking their close relatives), denied the ability of self-determination as to their national government, and in which army they might fight and serve, and also deprived of their right to practice their Catholic religion by Stalin's communists who forced their church to renounce the pope, or exiled in the West, etc.

That's such a revisionist view of things that it's not even funny.

pawian 173 | 13,663
20 Aug 2020 #20
Should Poland organize March of the Living in Volhynia and Eastern Lesser Poland?

If the organizers are able to make sure the march will stress history, namely UPA and OUN as murderers, and not contemporary ordinary Ukrainians, then why not? In Western Ukraine, nationalists erect monuments to UPA "heroes." We can counterplay them with Memory marches.
Vlad1234 16 | 719
20 Aug 2020 #21
The genocide of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Lesser Poland perpetrated by Ukrainian nationalists

This case is unique because commonly genocide is a something that is organized by an ethnic majority against an ethnic minority. In rare cases by an advanced and ruling minority against backward and colonized majority. But in Poland Ukrainians were small and oppressed minority. So this is probably an exceptional case in history when an armed uprising of an ethnic minority against ruling majority is called genocide. Also usually nations start to talk about genocide when number of victims is counted in millions rather than in tens of thousands. Some Polish sources claim that around 60.000 Poles were killed by Ukrainians and around 23.000 of Ukrainians by Poles in all the former Poland in 1943-1945. More Poles than Ukrainians, but still it is a numbers which are measured in the same orders of magnitude. For a normal nations: "if you owe me and I owe you - the debts are cancelled". Ukrainians expressed their position on the subject long ago: "we forgive and expect to be forgiven".
pawian 173 | 13,663
20 Aug 2020 #22
This case is unique because commonly genocide is a something that is organized by an ethnic majority against an ethnic minority

Yes, that was the situation in Kresy - Poles were a minority among Ukrainians.

But in Poland Ukrainians were small and oppressed minority.

Stop twisting facts - we aren`t talking about whole Poland but its Eastern territory.

nations start to talk about genocide when number of victims is counted in millions

No. We talk genocide when the whole group/nation/minority is targeted for annihalation. It happened to Poles in Volhynia.

"if you owe me and I owe you - the debts are cancelled".

Yes, but Poles retaliated on Ukrainians only after Ukrainian nationalists had already massacred dozens of Polish villages. It wasn`t Poles who first went on a murderous spree. So, it isn`t the same measure as you suggest.

Ukrainians expressed their position on the subject long ago: "we forgive and expect to be forgiven".

Yes, of course, we should follow our Christian credo.

I only meant a balance in nature which I`d love to see everywhere: Ukrainian monuments to nationalists from UPA and OUN should be counterbalanced by Polish memory marches.

Isn`t it fair?
Vlad1234 16 | 719
20 Aug 2020 #23
Yes, but Poles retaliated on Ukrainians

Not necessarily in all the cases. Some Ukrainians claim there were cases of massacres on Ukrainian villages by Polish nationalists and Polish "polizais" who served to Nazi occupants even before the mass scale actions from Ukrainian side. Also they claim many cases on the territory of modern Poland in Zakerzonje region and town of Chelm vicinity, especially during operation "Vistula" in 1944-1947 when many Ukrainians been terrorized.

Stop twisting facts - we aren`t talking about whole Poland but its Eastern territory.

Where is a twisting here and why we need to separate Eastern part of the then Poland from entire Poland? Current Polish govt. claims that the citizens of "second Polish republic" had been subjected to genocide. Ukrainians constituted minority in the second Polish republic, that's a fact. Also it is typically governments who are accused in genocides. Entire nations aren't accused in the actions of a rogue groups.

Yes, but Poles retaliated on Ukrainians

But doesn't retaliation means debt cancellation? Or what is the point?
pawian 173 | 13,663
21 Aug 2020 #24
massacres on Ukrainian villages by Polish nationalists and Polish "polizais" who served to Nazi occupants even

Actually, it was quite on the contrary., It was Ukrainians who started getting rid of Poles when Germans invaded the USSR in 1941. And it wasn`t Polish polizais but Ukrainian ones who collaborated with Germans. What do you know about SS Galizien which consisted of Ukrainians?

especially during operation "Vistula" in 1944-1947 when many Ukrainians been terrorized.

Yes, that was the time when Poles had already realised it was impossible to live with Ukrainians next door. That is why they were resettled to Western Poland. Miraculously, the UPA bandits` terror ceased immediately after the operation.

Where is a twisting here and why we need to separate Eastern part of the then Poland from entire Poland?

You claimed that Ukrainians were a minority in Poland so it was impossible for them to commit genocide on Poles. I reminded you we are talking about Kresy where Poles where a minority, sth like 20% to 80%.

Entire nations aren't accused in the actions of a rogue groups.

Of course, I constantly refer to murderers from UPA and OUN, not the whole Ukrainian nation.
Crow 139 | 8,434
21 Aug 2020 #25
Should Poland organize March of the Living in Volhynia and Eastern Lesser Poland?

Absolutly. This continent don't have future without facing errors of past. Not to say that dead deserve remembrance.
pawian 173 | 13,663
21 Aug 2020 #26
Also usually nations start to talk about genocide

The issue whether to treat it as genocide or not was solved by the Polish Parliament which on 22 July 2016 passed a resolution recognizing the massacres as genocide.

Any Pole who discusses this history will call it genocide so trying to negate it is a waste of time.
Vlad1234 16 | 719
21 Aug 2020 #27
And it wasn`t Polish polizais but Ukrainian ones who collaborated with Germans.

It changed year to year. After Ukrainian nationalists attempted to proclaim independent Ukraine somewhere in the late 1941 Germans outlawed them and put their leader in concentration camp. After that they've started actively involve Poles in collaboration instead of Ukrainians. Sometimes Polish nationalists including the collaborators had no mercy on Ukrainians. Only in 1944 when Germans were beaten severely by Soviet Army they changed their relation to Ukrainians and started to form divisions like "SS Galicia". Ukrainians aren't inclined to dig in the past as much as Poles and probably not all such cases have been documented. But read for example about cases in Krasny Sad in April of 1943 and other villages.

dobrodziej.webnode.com.ua/news/czyja-prawda-czyja-krzywda

I reminded you we are talking about Kresy where Poles where a minority, sth like 20% to 80%.

Minorities are counted by their relation to the countries they live, not by territories. I think you perfectly know that Ukrainian nationalists wouldn't target Poles if they would certain that Ukraine after WWII would become part of USSR (or independent later). They targeted them only because they still perceived them as an ethnic MAJORITY who is a potential threat to independent Ukraine.


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