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70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies


pawian 157 | 9,053
20 Jun 2013  #1
70 years ago Ukrainian ultra nationalists started killing Polish population in Wołyń and Eastern Galicia region. Massacres were extremely brutal, about 100.000 Polish citizens were murdered in a horrible way, including babies.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

Today, 20.06.2013, Polish Senate proclaimed a tribute to the victims of "ethnic cleansing of genocidal aspect." Most Senators didn`t agree to name it pure "genocide" as PiS Senators desired.

Unable to unanimously adopt a resolution in the Senate on the 70th anniversary of the crime Volyn . Senators from the Law and Justice wanted to July 11th Martyrdom Day of Remembrance establish Kresowian and Volyn massacre same call in the resolution of genocide. Did not obtain it , however, the consent of the majority of the Chamber in Poland.

On the resolution senators debated on Wednesday, but then failed to establish a single version of the text , and it was addressed to further work in the Senate legislation. Some senators emphasized that the resolution should be set July 11th Martyrdom Day of Remembrance Kresowian . On this day in 1943, attacked the UPA approx. 100 Polish village. It was the culmination of crimes in Volyn , resulting in the killing , according to estimates of the IPN , approx. 100 thousand . Poles. The Ukrainian side is estimated their losses at 10-20 thousand victims.


Poles are in a cleft stick nowadays - we need to keep up good relations with Ukraine to encourage her to choose Europe instead of Russia. At the same time, Polish memory of massacres is still vivid but Ukrainians, unlike Germans, refuse to admit the evil they did to Poles. it is enough to compare Polish and Ukrainian Wiki entries on the subject. uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B3%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%96%D1%8F

During our last year`s trip to Bieszczady Mountains we came across monuments devoted to the victims of Ukrainian rabid nationalism.

Białogród, a little village in south east Poland:









OP pawian 157 | 9,053
13 Jul 2013  #2
The controvercies continue...

Yesterday, the Parliament didn`t proclaim "genocide" (as PiS and smaller parties demanded) but "ethnic cleansing of genocidal character" (PO).
delphiandomine 83 | 17,596
13 Jul 2013  #3
What's sad is that there is little recognition to the Ukrainian victims in Bieszczady. Then again, the relative emptiness of Bieszczady tells its own story.
OP pawian 157 | 9,053
13 Jul 2013  #4
Ukrainian victims

That`s a bit ambiguous. Like the notorious "Polish death camps" phrase....
delphiandomine 83 | 17,596
13 Jul 2013  #5
Well - let's say "those who weren't ethnically Polish who were cleared out/murdered" ;)
OP pawian 157 | 9,053
13 Jul 2013  #6
You need to develop the topic - at which time exactly were they cleansed/ murdered??
delphiandomine 83 | 17,596
13 Jul 2013  #7
1947, no?

Although - I know it's not directly on topic, but in your opinion, was it justified in order to bring stability to Poland?
sobieski 107 | 2,129
13 Jul 2013  #8
1947, no?

I suppose you refer to Akcja Wistula ?
OP pawian 157 | 9,053
13 Jul 2013  #9
1947, no?

I suppose you refer to Akcja Wistula ?

Yes, that`s it.

Although - I know it's not directly on topic, but in your opinion, was it justified in order to bring stability to Poland?

First of all, it wasn`t ethnic cleansing in the style that Ukrainians had done before. It was just a transfer of Rus people into another part of Poland (Western lands, formerly controlled by Germany). They were just resettled and allowed to stay in Poland, not cleansed.

And yes, I think, although brutal and inhumane, it was necessary to cut supplies to and eventually get rid of Ukrainian partisans (called bandits) who fought for creating independent Ukraine in the region.

But let`s focus on the main topic - massacre of 100.000 Poles in Polish Eastern territories called Kresy by Ukrainian butchers from UPA in 1943-1947.
sobieski 107 | 2,129
13 Jul 2013  #10
As I remember Jaruzelski was involved the Akcja....?
OP pawian 157 | 9,053
13 Jul 2013  #11
Yes but as I said

But let`s focus on the main topic - massacre of 100.000 Poles in Polish Eastern territories called Kresy by Ukrainian butchers from UPA in 1943-1947.

jon357 63 | 14,110
13 Jul 2013  #12
As I remember Jaruzelski was involved the Akcja....?

Yes but as I said

I don't think you can talk about one without the other.
OP pawian 157 | 9,053
13 Jul 2013  #13
Actually, we can, jon. These were two seperate events and the only element that links them is the protagonists - Poles and Ukrainians. But thinking in this way we could start from the times when Ukrainian Cossacks rose against the Commonwealth in 17 century, right?
jon357 63 | 14,110
13 Jul 2013  #14
Not really - they were both events occurring in the same region at the same time and with so many other factors linking them.

Both involved dreadful cruelty by both 'sides' and an unhealthy dose of nationalism all round.
OP pawian 157 | 9,053
13 Jul 2013  #15
Both involved dreadful cruelty by both 'sides'

Well, you should read more to know that equaling both events in this way is a bit hmm..... unwise.

Besides, respect my decision to talk about the subject which is in the title of the thread.

If you want to talk about Action Wisła, start another thread or find an old one.

OK?

an unhealthy dose of nationalism all round.

Unfortunately.
jon357 63 | 14,110
13 Jul 2013  #16
Well, you should read more to know that equaling both events in this way is a bit hmm..... unwise.

I see what you're saying. Interesting though about the motivation for the perpetrators of both crimes. Wolyn is clearly the first thing to discuss. What do you think was the motivation for Wolyn? Not just the ringleaders, but all those caught up. Also. how was it different for Akja Wisla?
OP pawian 157 | 9,053
13 Jul 2013  #17
What do you think was the motivation for Wolyn? Not just the ringleaders, but all those caught up.

Ukrainian butchers from UPA and OUN decided to clear the area of all Poles to make sure the territory was granted to Ukraine, which they hoped would be independent soon. Clearing was done by means of axes, pitched forks, knives, bayonettes, saws and other utensils of that kind. In result, thousands of Polish citizens were slaughtered in the most brutal way. Not killed, jon. SLAUGHTERED.

Simply speaking, it was ethnic cleansing of genocidal character.

Also. how was it different for Akja Wisla?

Resettling of Rus people to another area in Poland wasn`t genocide, jon.
jon357 63 | 14,110
13 Jul 2013  #18
wasn`t genocide

It wasn't. However was there an element of revenge?

Not killed, jon. SLAUGHTERED.

Same difference.

What is the Ukrainian point of view on Wolyn?
Wroclaw 44 | 5,389
13 Jul 2013  #19
Same difference.

i don't agree

a bullet to the head is quick and comes with war

hacked to death comes with hate..... and that is why there is a problem now.
jon357 63 | 14,110
13 Jul 2013  #20
Both are as bad for the victim. Hard to ever justify either - though some certainly do.

Interestingly there's still a small Polish community left in Wolyn and some villages with RC parishes - also in the area east of Wolyn, closer to Chernobyl.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,596
13 Jul 2013  #21
closer to Chernobyl.

Wolyn extended that far?

hacked to death comes with hate..... and that is why there is a problem now.

Or it comes with a lack of anything else to use.

I've said all along that the Ukrainians were acting out of sheer desperation - if they didn't clear Wolyn, then there was absolutely no chance that they would get their dreamed-of country.
OP pawian 157 | 9,053
13 Jul 2013  #22
However was there an element of revenge?

No. Remember, it took place in 1947. The eastern region of today`s Poland was liberated in 1944. Do you really think that it took 3 years to prepare the revenge?

No, I already mentioned it :

, it was necessary to cut off supplies to and eventually get rid of Ukrainian partisans (called bandits) who fought for creating independent Ukraine in the region.

The newest monuments to honour the victims

Warsaw

Polish monument

Polish monument

Gromnik
TheOther 5 | 3,643
13 Jul 2013  #23
The newest monuments to honour the victims

How many more monuments does the country really need?
OP pawian 157 | 9,053
13 Jul 2013  #24
Well, that`s not all. There are old ones too:

Wrocław:
Huta Pieniacka:
Kraków
Gdańsk:

Gdańsk-

Street in Legnica

Street in Legnica-

Genocide in Volhynia - term number of shares of Ukrainian nationalists directed against the Polish and Czech population living in Volhynia. During stretching from 1942 to 1944 years of seizures, intensified in summer 1943 were murdered about 100,000 Poles and a few thousand Ukrainians. The action was initiated by the activists of the OUN-B (Bandera) and performed primarily by the formation of UPA aided by the peasants. A large role in instigating to the crime played a Greek Catholic clergy. Greek Catholic priests who refused to incitement to crime were also murdered. Greek Catholic Metropolitan Andrew Szeptycki admittedly issued November 21, 1942 pastoral letter Thou shalt not kill, but it caused almost no reaction from nationalists. Most murders, made in the summer of 1943 took place on Sundays. Ukrainians used the fact that the Polish people gathered at Mass in churches, so churches were often surrounded, and the faithful before his death were often tortured in a cruel way (eg. Cutting people in half with a saw for wood, gouging eyes out, burning alive). July 11, 1943 there was a coordinated attack on dozens of Polish towns, throughout July and at least 530 Polish villages and settlements. Under the slogan Death of Lach's were killed several thousand of Poles. It is very difficult today to determine the exact number of Poles murdered. This is often due to the fact that some of the village were razed and their inhabitants slaughtered to the last man. Careful estimates supported by evidence, in the form of the relationship of the survivors, allow you to specify the Polish loss in Volhynia for approx. 60 thousand of murdered.

Hmm, because once Poles saw how Germans tried to eradicate the Polish culture by blowing up Polish monuments? The inscription on Krakow monument reads: Nations which lose memory die out.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,596
13 Jul 2013  #25
How many more monuments does the country really need?

The problem with all these monuments is that they get maintained or abandoned depending on the political climate.

The Communists were just as bad at putting monuments everywhere - must be a general Polish thing.
OP pawian 157 | 9,053
13 Jul 2013  #26
The Communists were just as bad at putting monuments everywhere

Hmm...... Delph, you should also do some deeper research. :):):)

The abandoned (pulled down) monuments erected in communist times honoured such butchers as Feliks Dzierźyński or Vladimir Lenin. Yes, they were abandoned, as you say:

Lenin

Dzierżyński

Do you really think it is problem?

However, other monuments have been preserved.

must be a general Polish thing.

You seem not to read all posts here:
Again:

Hmm, because once Poles saw how Germans tried to eradicate the Polish culture by blowing up Polish monuments? The inscription on Krakow monument reads: Nations which lose memory die out.

delphiandomine 83 | 17,596
13 Jul 2013  #27
The abandoned (pulled down) monuments erected in communist times honoured such butchers as Feliks Dzierźyński or Vladimir Lenin. Yes, they were abandoned, as you say:

Oh no, it's not those I'm talking about - those were rightfully pulled down as soon as it was possible. It's more the ones from the PRL era that were dedicated to victims of Fascism, or to others.

Hmm, because once Poles saw how Germans tried to eradicate the Polish culture by blowing up Polish monuments? The inscription on Krakow monument reads: Nations which lose memory die out.

It is true, but you must admit, all these monuments to Polish suffering also help to reinforce the general "Christ of Nations" complex that some people have.

Do you know if these monuments are dedicated to all victims in Wolyn, or just Polish ones?
OP pawian 157 | 9,053
14 Jul 2013  #28
It's more the ones from the PRL era that were dedicated to victims of Fascism,

Impossible!! I cannot believe it.

It is true, but you must admit, all these monuments to Polish suffering also help to reinforce the general "Christ of Nations" complex that some people have.

Yes, it is true, but that is our tradition and you cannot help it. At least for a generation or two. Besides, why should Poles be worse than Jews in commemorating their victims???

Do you know if these monuments are dedicated to all victims in Wolyn, or just Polish ones?

Only Polish ones.

The process of reconciliation has started only recently: in June, Polish and Ukrainian bishops signed the declaration of mutual forgiveness: polskieradio.pl/5/3/Artykul/875996,Deklaracja-biskupow-tylko-prawda-moze-nas-wyzwolic

Poland Warsaw Church

But inhabitants of Eastern lands and their ancestors refuse to reconcile: polskieradio.pl/5/3/Artykul/876302,Nie-mozna-pojednac-sie-z-mordercami
TheOther 5 | 3,643
14 Jul 2013  #29
Nations which lose memory die out.

Yes, but why is it always something sad that is commemorated? Isn't there anything positive that would be worth erecting a monument for?

...help to reinforce the general "Christ of Nations" complex that some people have

That's what crossed my mind, too.
goofy_the_dog
14 Jul 2013  #30
I agree with pawian.
Theother and delph probably think that poles are unworthy of commempration their own genocide... Sad.
Christ of nations "complex" lol Oo
this the polish cultural and historical tradition if you dontclike then you where the door is ? ;-)
I never moan on the 11.11 remembrance day or on the British "heroes winning the war with help of yanks" complexes...


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