70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies

@pawian

Ok - fine - I apologize. But I don't think I hallucinated this, I just can't find it.

And what is the proper name of the largest city in Poland?
1)Warszawa
2)Warschau
3)Warsow
4)Варшава

Never mind, it isn`t so important.

What is more important, though, is your telling us how pawian`s views have changed coz it is a mystery to me.

Warsaw

what has changed is that you were willing to be objective in 2013, but now that the war has come around you have become a TASS/VOA correspondent.

How am I not objective now???

Really? Orcs, Meat, Mongols, Beasts, Slaves - who uses these words?

Back to the topic of the thread please

Exactly. This thread is about Polish Ukrainian relations during WW2 and later on, not Polish attitude to Russian invaders.
How many times do I have to repeat my question about pawian`s views??

Historically it was always Russia that served as Poland's existential enemy, taking away our sovereignty and butchering Poles mercilessly. A single Volhynia massacre does not change this fact. We need allies against Russia to prevent it from gaining power. Ukraine is such an ally. We'd be utter morons if we did not support its fight against Kremlin's imperialist invasion.

Agreed.


Agreed.

russians hate peace, they see it as a humiliating constraint on their power

the malovent grudge-bearing nature of russian 'culture' comes through in all sorts of situations....

when a russian speaks... the world hears the growl of a rabid animal.....

Bobko:

I am so stubborn to get an answer from you coz I think my views on the matter haven`t changed. I am waiting for sb to prove they have. It is quite possible that I suffer from amnesia so can you be so kind and explain certain things to me???

My views:
Ukrainian banderists brutally murdered Polish citizens in Eastern Poland, today Western Ukraine. It is a historical fact.
Earlier, Poles had oppressed Ukrainians and tried to turn them into Poles by force, destroying their culture, institutions, religion etc. It is a historical fact. .

Today, Poles should support Ukraine and help it join the Western world. That is a strategic choice for Poland.
Historical debate over historical issues can wait.
Russia has always remained the major threat to Poland. It will never change until Russia disintegrates into a dozen Russtans.

I am sorry to keep you waiting! I felt I made a generalist statement which should have encapsulated all of my issues with your line of thinking. I was lazy to provide a point by point response, but now that you have distilled your own position it's an easier task.

So....

1) In general, again, I have no issue with your position as a Polish person. If you recognize that this is an alliance of opportunity with yesterday's butchers - then that is fine in my book.

2) I disagree that Russia is the bigger threat. Old Pawian also seemed to think so. Russia attacking Ukraine has made you paranoid compared to your ten-years-ago self.

3) Old Pawian would understand that Poles protecting Ukraine would make a Russian invasion of Poland MORE likely, rather than less likely.

Stop those infantile manipulations.:):):) Yesterday`s butchers are long dead. Besides, they were limited to Western Ukraine. Central and Eastern Ukraine didn`t support Bandera. Additionally, Ukrainian banderist butchers were a product of Polish nationalism which was fully intent on depriving Polish Ukrainians of their national identity. Last but not the least, didn`t Poles make peace with Germans?????? :):):)


So do I. Russia isn`t a bigger threat, but the biggest of all!!! hahahaha


Poles like taking risks so we will support Ukraine even if it pisses Russians off. Hard luck. :):):) What law did the Polish Parliament pass during the November Rising of 1830??? :):):) Do you know???

@Bobko

" Old Pawian would understand that Poles protecting Ukraine would make a Russian invasion of Poland MORE likely, rather than less likely."

That line of thinking would only work and convince any human with zero historical knowledge and ignorance of the history of Russian behaviour regarding it's foreign policies.

Polish intelligentsia, brains, intelligence services, military, beauricrats, priests, joirnalists have NO OTHER OPTION then to expect a Russian invasion as inevetable due to historical past and experiences, it was tried to perform apeasement politics, in vain hope for the foreign beasts to stop. Guess what? It did NOT WORK, not only that the entire country vanished from the map.

So Yeah, very few countries are able to consolidate very quickly those groups of people as they useally are very much at odds with one another. They all know the mortal danger of a Russian invasion on their lives... No matter what they do or what their stance are. So might as well be against Russia and do everything possible to slow it down to buy time.

Russia gives Poland and Poles No credible options, cause all her credibility has been spent, not only that but is also in the negatives and in debt.

Until Russians realise that, there is very little room for any "understanding"

There have been several time that Polish delegations or groups sided with Russia or wanted a peaceful/diplomatic approach.

Guess what, they all suddenly, strangely went missing and dissappeared and were never heard from again. If it happends once, with one person. One can conclude it as strange, but not upon thousands of people

No, you don`t. The Polish Parliament removed the Russian tsar from the throne of Poland. He hit the ceiling when he learnt about the deposition. hahahaha buhahahaha


When will you understand that Poles don`t care about Russian threats??? We shall object to all evil things you do until you learn how to live in a civilised manner.

Why is it so? Because Poles are endowed with the mentality of free people, while Russians are natural born slaves. Ha!!! :):):)

If everything Russia does is a bluff, then how should Russia communicate to ensure it is heard? The last couple posts in this thread are pure insanity. It's crazy to me that it's 60+ year-old dudes that are writing this insane sh!t to me. You guys are completely off your rockers.

We are talking about the destruction of everything, literally everything. For what?

Just shut up! Everyone in the world is sick and tired of hearing about russian bellyaches.... what a bunch of insufferable whiners you all are... no one cares!

All russians go home and stay there and stop stinking up other countries with your pathetic complaints and grumbles.....

russia was not humiliated in 1991 (massive efforts went into trying to prevent that) and it was clearly a mistake.... when a dog messes the floor rub his nose in it... russia is messing the floor...

Darling, it is Russians who are threatening the world with nuclear war because they are losing in Ukraine. And you are using the same threats here.


Why do we have to oppose them? W imię zasad, skurwysynu!!! Simple.

If we are such insufferable whiners why don't you ignore us? Let us do our stupid sh!t in our own backyard. How much did America import from Ukraine in 2013 or 2021? How many companies did Ukrainians found in America? How many times has Ukraine helped the US in Iraq or Afghanistan (Russia literally supplied arms to the Iraqi and AFG gov on US request, and opened its airspace to US mil plane overflights)? How does anything that happens in Ukraine threaten the United States?

Just ignore us, it's clear we cannot be friends.

No, darling, Poles won`t let you do what you fekking want with Ukraine. Simple.


Are you crazy or stupid??? :):):)


Darling, this is a Polish Ukrainian thread, get the fekk out of here with this America, will you??

We try to. But then you start a war.


As long as you stay within your plot borders. Somehow you seem unwilling to do that.

Cause you keep sh[tting the bed in other countries. Ukraine is not russia and no amount of russian tantrums will change that. Stay in your own country and try to act like half-way civilized people and maybe people wouldn't look down on you so much....


they hate America far more than they hate Ukraine.... it reminds them of everything they're not.... especially powerful and influential... they can't stand that no one wants the loser russian culture.

But you don't and that is the point......it's always in someone else's backyard.....


It doesn't but that doesn't give you Carte Blanche to invade and murder them!I


There is truth in that comment.

What is amazing about these massacres is that they are relatively still unknown to the world. I never knew anything about them until about three years ago.

My new hobby is studying Polish history. I started reading the histories about a year ago. That's all I read now. Naturally you start at the beginning and I've been making my way up till 1795 as a start.

There are a lot of topics covering periods of Polish history. The 1863 insurrection for example. This event affected my families. You can't help studying Poland and WW II. The topic is everywhere.

The more I studied Poland and WW II the more complicated it became. Two points stand out:
1.I found out that there were "wars with wars" in Poland.
2.Also WW II did not end in Poland in 1945.
These points were also shocking to me.

According to the 2013 original post the term "genocide" came into question. If you read what historians say in the ten years since the original post, the "genocide" term is still disputed.. Even articles appearing in the English language SLAVIC REVIEW still debate it.

Since this is pretty new info for me, I believe my view is pretty objective. "Ethnic cleansing" versus "genocide" ??? Most Ukrainian, some Polish, and many English speaking Eastern European historians continually play "word games" and say, in effect, that the massacres were "ethnic cleansing that looks like genocide". Word play!

Give me a break! It's genocide and the UN definition of genocide best fits the terminology.
"...to destroy, IN WHOLE OR IN PART, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group..."

Also, this is an historical topic that needs to be constantly brought to the public's attention. That's the job of Polish historians and English speaking Polish people, societies, groups, associations, etc. throughout the world. The way the Final Solution is taught. The way Native American massacres are taught. The way Pol Pot's Killing Fields are taught. The way the Armenian genocide is taught. And yes, the way Stalin's Ukrainian Holodomor is taught.

BUT THE TIMING IS NO GOOD! Ukraine is the "Western World's" hero and could do no wrong. The country is literally combatting EVIL. That's pretty much the American view.

In the "dice roll "of history, it's typical Polish luck. The choice is between the historically evil Ukrainians and the perpetually evil Russian. You make a choice of the lesser of two evils.

Poland"s done the right thing currently but Poland has to "never forget" the massacres and continually remind the world always.

Poland has no lack of luck.

What is the difference between being historically evil and perpetually evil? Curious distinction...

Since Ukrainians did not exist until very recently (this is a fact not only from the POV of external parties, but even from within Ukraine itself), one may argue that Poland has been dealing with the same perpetually evil people, appearing in different guises.

meaningless fool's dichotomy....

at present Ukraine is a sovereign country under military attack by a country that doesn't think Ukrainians should exist. Look at what's happened everywhere that fell under russian control (starting with Bucha and Mariupol) and it's clear what russian aims are.

Live in the past or look to the future.... that's what's important at this moment.

@marion kanawha

And your point is?

@Miloslaw
I think she's talking about the lesser of two evils, for which there is some justification.

Worth mentioning that r*SSia was a wealthy empire who planned their evil and committed it as a solid course of action which has continued to today. Ukraine was oppressed and hungry peasants who didn't plan anything nor follow any long course of action.