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Khazar migrations to Eastern Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine


genecps 7 | 131
25 Jun 2012  #1
First, I wanna say that I'm not a "fake" poster or a fake Jew as been suggested in another topic. I'm 100% Jew from a Shagal family which is from the greater Segal Clan. It has been found that about 5% of Jews have the q1b haplogroup which is associated to Khazars, and a large number of Jews from Easter Europe who have red hair, a trait associated to Khazars. At arround 1200's Khazars moved Westward and settled in what is now Eastern Poland and Belarus. Until Tsarist Russia took over control of those lands there was peace and calm between Jewish and Polish/Belarus communities in those lands. The only reason a lot of Jews claim that Khazars are a myth is because it would deligitimize the Jews claim to Israel, but at 5% of the Jewish population it is hardly a threat.
jon357 64 | 14,382
26 Jun 2012  #2
According to reputable DNA studies, the bulk of the Khazars after their state fell just mixed in with the locals and disappeared without a trace of their culture or heritage. An Ashkenazi Jewish person is just as likely to have a bit of Polish, Hungarian, Russian, German or Rumanian blood in them as Khazar. More so in fact.
Barney 14 | 1,470
26 Jun 2012  #3
I never heard of this Khazar crowd till I started posting here. I must be honest I’ve put it (the Idea of Jews etc) into one of the bonkers spaces of my mind.
jon357 64 | 14,382
26 Jun 2012  #4
Pretty well the same here. They were a rather obscure ethnic group, long long ago, however all the stuff that comes up here is because of a racist theory around a hundred years ago, discredited by science, that made its way onto the Internet and into the fevered imaginations of people who don't get out enough.
Barney 14 | 1,470
26 Jun 2012  #5
a racist theory around a hundred years ago, discredited by science, that made its way onto the Internet and into the fevered imaginations of people who don't get out enough.

Very cleaver people created the internet and some others have made a mockery of that endeavour.
Nickidewbear 22 | 566
26 Jun 2012  #6
My dear Lewi, awinu Ja'akow had red hair as did his brother, Esaw. We probably gave red hair to many Khazars who mixed into 'aminu.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,292
28 Jun 2012  #7
They were a rather obscure ethnic group, long long ago

They may be obscure edit: Eastern European history but to anyone that has studied the Kievan Russ the Khazars are famous. Russian and Ukrainian movies set in the nascent period of their nation often have Khazar characters in them. Kiev itself was founded on the Dnieper by Varangians in order to trade with the wealthy Khazar Khagnate and the Kievan Russ state emerged, and grew, in military conflict with the Khazars. Even today the Caspian Sea is known as the "Khazar Sea" by theTurkic peoples of the region.

all the stuff that comes up here is because of a racist theory around a hundred years ago, discredited by science

The existence of the Khazars and the fact that they converted to Judaism is not a "racist theory". It is a historical fact and it has been known for far more than 100 years nor has "science" discredited it.
jon357 64 | 14,382
28 Jun 2012  #8
They may be obscure

They are obscure. Very little is known about them compared to other societies of that Period

These studies (among others) refute the discredited Khazar theory which you're trying to promote for reasons unknown.
Natasa 1 | 582
28 Jun 2012  #9
One of our best novels is about Khazars, the title of the novel- lexicon is The Dictionary of Khazars written by Milorad Pavic.

I think it is worth reading. The plot is developing around efforts of officials of Judaism, Islam and Christianity to get Khazars on their side.

Published in english in 1988.
jon357 64 | 14,382
28 Jun 2012  #10
An excellent book. A friend from your country lent it to me ages ago. I'd like to read more by Pavic.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,292
28 Jun 2012  #11
quote=jon357]They are obscure. Very little is known about them compared to other societies of that Period[/quote]
What other societies of the period are you referring to? I suspect that you have none in mind and you are just claiming this due to your inability to admit that you were wrong (the frequent reader of this forum has seen you demonstrate this inability numerous times and it is hilarious!). The Khazars are known via the Kievan Primary Chronicle as well as through Byzantine and Arab sources.

These studies (among others) refute the discredited Khazar theory which you're trying to promote for reasons unknown.

I am not promoting the Khazar theory. I am saying that you are lying when you claim that it is a "racist" theory and that you are lying when you claim that 'science' has discredited it. The first link you provided says the following:

The investigation of the genetic relationship among three Jewish communities revealed that Kurdish and Sephardic Jews were indistinguishable from one another, whereas both differed slightly, yet significantly, from Ashkenazi Jews. The differences among Ashkenazim may be a result of low-level gene flow from European populations and/or genetic drift during isolation. Admixture between Kurdish Jews and their former Muslim host population in Kurdistan appeared to be negligible. In comparison with data available from other relevant populations in the region, Jews were found to be more closely related to groups in the north of the Fertile Crescent (Kurds, Turks, and Armenians) than to their Arab neighbors.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1274378/

The reader should note that this study shows that there are indeed Jews with Turkic ancestry and thus leaves open the possibility that some Jews living today are indeed descendants of the Turkic Khazars as is the belief in the OP's family. So much for your claim that the first study you linked to refutes the Khazar theory, Jon357, although it does "refute the discredited Khazar theory" in the sense that it refutes its discreditation, but I suspect that you contradicted what you intended to say out of carelessness. (you surely can't have posted over 1,100 times in this forum in less than 4 months while choosing all of your words carefully.)

The second link you posted says the following:

Some genetic studies suggest that Jewish populations show substantial non-Jewish admixture and the occurrence of mass conversion of non-Jews to Judaism

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC18733/?tool=pmcentrez

Again this refutes your claim that science has utterly refuted theories that claim that many of today's Jews are descendants of converts, such as the Khazars, jon357.

Your third link is a NY Times article about a study that does claim to refute the role of mass conversion in making the modern Jewish genome. So I guess we'd have to say that "the third time was the charm" for you, Jon357, you tried, and you tried, and you finally posted a link that, sort of, supports what you say about the refutation of the Khazar theory. Congratulations!

I do wish to take issue with the fact that you seem to be calling the OP, and his family, racists for believing that they have Khazar ancestry and that is just plain rude. Why would it be racist to believe that many of the Khazars that converted to Judaism stuck with their adopted faith and came West out of the Pontic Steppe? History shows that even before the 12th Century a portion of the Jewish Khazars, called Kabars, went West with the Magyars and settled in Pannonia. I suspect the reason that you call the Khazar theory "racist" is contained in the OP's post:

The only reason a lot of Jews claim that Khazars are a myth is because it would deligitimize the Jews claim to Israel, but at 5% of the Jewish population it is hardly a threat.

Jon357, you are lying, and being rude, upon this thread out of loyalty to the Zionist project and it doesn't matter to you if Khazar ancestry is only attributable to one out of twenty modern Jews. You are an extremely zealous Zionist that can't allow any claim that some of Europe's Jews are descendants of Japheth rather than Shem.
jon357 64 | 14,382
28 Jun 2012  #12
Unfortunately they are obscure indeed, vanishing with barely a trace. And as you see, the DNA studies I posted (and there are many, many more if you're interested) entirely refute your theory. Though I notice you're still as rude as ever, especially when you pick an argument and lose it due to a low level of critical thought, education and general intelligence. In any case, the next ban can't be far away.

Khazar ancestry is only attributable to one out of twenty modern Jews

Which proves my point. Their descendants are found in far higher concentration among the local population. There are studies for that too. ;-)

By the way, which spelling of your username do you prefer? I notice you have two. Why is that?
Des Essientes 7 | 1,292
28 Jun 2012  #13
Though I notice you're still as rude as ever, especially when you pick an argument and lose it due to a low level of critical thought, education and general intelligence.

No, Jon, you lost the argument and you are the one being rude. Your claims about my level of critical thought, education and general intelligence are personal attacks, which are forbidden upon this forum.

By the way, which spelling of your username do you prefer? I notice you have two. Why is that?

My user name has always only had one spelling. Why are you lying about it? Are you well?

More reason to ban the word "Zionist" forever from PF.

What does this bizarre desire to ban a word from this forum have to do with Khazar migrations to Poland, Belarus and Ukraine?
jon357 64 | 14,382
29 Jun 2012  #14
you lost the argument

Quite the opposite. However if scientific fact doesn't convince you that the Ashkenazi Jews aren't the lost descendants of the Khazars, It's hard to say what would.

Your claims about my level of critical thought, education and general intelligence are personal attacks, which are forbidden upon this forum

That would be the case were it not a simple statement of fact. See below.

My user name has always only had one spelling. Why are you lying about it? Are you well?

Really?

DesEsseintes = Profile of: Des Esseintes
DesEssientes = Profile of: Des Essientes

To lie so flagrantly (whilst accusing others of lying!) says everything about the misinformation you post here and try to pretend is true and casts permanent doubt on anything you say here. But I don't think anyone takes it seriously anyway.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,292
29 Jun 2012  #15
To lie so flagrantly

I was unaware I had two accounts. I must've registered twice without realizing it, but that hardly makes me a liar. You yourself have several accounts jonni, jonnyM, jon357, etc.

However if scientific fact doesn't convince you that the Ashkenazi Jews aren't the lost descendants of the Khazars, It's hard to say what would.

The links you posted did not disprove the OP's claim that he is of Khazar descent. As anyone reading the quotations from them that I posted can see. Jon367 why do you still insist that they do? Can't you read? You are unable to admit when you are wrong and it is really hilarious!
OP genecps 7 | 131
29 Jun 2012  #16
Most people have never heard of Khazars because they never heard of a lot of things. Lithuania, which was part of the Polish Commonwealth has 2 surviving Khazar communities who still speak the Khazar Turkic Language. If any of you looked at my pic, I'm a stereotipical Khazar. My looks are similar to Chuvash people, Udmurts, even Turks from Northern Turkey (who didn't mix with Arabs). All of my ancestors are Jews. My last name Shagal is a variation of Segal, which an acronym for SeGan Levi- Prince of Levites or Assistant to the High Priest. This is a title given to our family for protection we provided to the Jewsih community and the Kohan that settled in our area.

After Khazaria was incorporated into Russia around 980 AD, we stayed in southern Russia till about 1200's, where we took up farming. this was the main difference between Khazar Jews and Ashkenazi in Belarus and Eastern Poland. Ashkenazi (Ashkenaz is Yidish word for German Land) were mostly city people and helds crafts such as shoe maker, taylors, silversmiths, which is a known fact that the community was very heavily weighted towards those skills, where as Khazar Jews who were mixed with Jews from Byzantine Empire (Romaniots) and Persian Jews tended to be more farm and ranching oriented. You can see our Clans lifestyle in my Great Uncles paintings (Mark Chagall) which depicts a very country lifestyle with animals places in most of the paintings to symbolize how much our lifestyle revolved around animals and farming.

for those who doubt my true identity I would like to post several links to my families groups and a Xazar group which I moderate. Just because you are not familiar with something doesn't make it false;)

facebook.com/groups/244779992229981/
facebook.com/groups/223616031059309/
facebook.com/groups/297505980262446/

DesEsseintes: The links you posted did not disprove the OP's claim that he is of Khazar descent. As anyone reading the quotations from them that I posted can see. Jon367 why do you still insist that they do? Can't you read? You are unable to admit when you are wrong and it is really hilarious!
No Dave. The links completely refute the old myth that the Ashkenazi Jews are the descendants of the Khazars. There a by the way many more DNA studies carried out within the Jewish community.

Nothing you said disproves any claim of Khazar descent. Studies conducted by American Jewish geneology research groups point to 5% of Jewish population having Khazar DNA, it's the Q1b haplogroup and possible R1 haplogroup. 5% is about 1,000,000 people!

groups.yahoo/group/Ashkenazi-Q/

quote=jon357]They are obscure. Very little is known about them compared to other societies of that Period

What other societies of the period are you referring to? I suspect that you have none in mind and you are just claiming this due to your inability to admit that you were wrong (the frequent reader of this forum has seen you demonstrate this inability numerous times and it is hilarious!). The Khazars are known via the Kievan Primary Chronicle as well as through Byzantine and Arab sources.

jon357: These studies (among others) refute the discredited Khazar theory which you're trying to promote for reasons unknown.
I am not promoting the Khazar theory. I am saying that you are lying when you claim that it is a "racist" theory and that you are lying when you claim that 'science' has discredited it. The first link you provided says the following:

The investigation of the genetic relationship among three Jewish communities revealed that Kurdish and Sephardic Jews were indistinguishable from one another, whereas both differed slightly, yet significantly, from Ashkenazi Jews. The differences among Ashkenazim may be a result of low-level gene flow from European populations and/or genetic drift during isolation. Admixture between Kurdish Jews and their former Muslim host population in Kurdistan appeared to be negligible. In comparison with data available from other relevant populations in the region, Jews were found to be more closely related to groups in the north of the Fertile Crescent (Kurds, Turks, and Armenians) than to their Arab neighbors.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1274378/

The reader should note that this study shows that there are indeed Jews with Turkic ancestry and thus leaves open the possibility that some Jews living today are indeed descendants of the Turkic Khazars as is the belief in the OP's family. So much for your claim that the first study you linked to refutes the Khazar theory, Jon357, although it does "refute the discredited Khazar theory" in the sense that it refutes its discreditation, but I suspect that you contradicted what you intended to say out of carelessness. (you surely can't have posted over 1,100 times in this forum in less than 4 months while choosing all of your words carefully.)

The second link you posted says the following:
Some genetic studies suggest that Jewish populations show substantial non-Jewish admixture and the occurrence of mass conversion of non-Jews to Judaism

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC18733/?tool=pmcentrez

Again this refutes your claim that science has utterly refuted theories that claim that many of today's Jews are descendants of converts, such as the Khazars, jon357.

Your third link is a NY Times article about a study that does claim to refute the role of mass conversion in making the modern Jewish genome. So I guess we'd have to say that "the third time was the charm" for you, Jon357, you tried, and you tried, and you finally posted a link that, sort of, supports what you say about the refutation of the Khazar theory. Congratulations!

I do wish to take issue with the fact that you seem to be calling the OP, and his family, racists for believing that they have Khazar ancestry and that is just plain rude. Why would it be racist to believe that many of the Khazars that converted to Judaism stuck with their adopted faith and came West out of the Pontic Steppe? History shows that even before the 12th Century a portion of the Jewish Khazars, called Kabars, went West with the Magyars and settled in Pannonia. I suspect the reason that you call the Khazar theory "racist" is contained in the OP's post:

genecps: The only reason a lot of Jews claim that Khazars are a myth is because it would deligitimize the Jews claim to Israel, but at 5% of the Jewish population it is hardly a threat.

Jon357, you are lying, and being rude, upon this thread out of loyalty to the Zionist project and it doesn't matter to you if Khazar ancestry is only attributable to one out of twenty modern Jews. You are an extremely zealous Zionist that can't allow any claim that some of Europe's Jews are descendants of Japheth rather than Shem.[/quote]

Des Essientes, I agree completely with everything you say! 2 sides of this equation have both put out more bullshit on this subject then anything. On one side the Arabs claim that most European Jews are Khazars, which is bullshit because you can easily tell the visible Semitic features as well as the proven genetic studies that point otherwise. And on the Jewish side many reject any possible link to Khazars 100% out of the notion that it would lessen their claim to Israel. Both sides have a completely biased agenda that gets rejected more and more especially with the increasing rate of genetic testing which supports the claim that 1 in 20 Jews is genetically of similar blood line to Bulgars, Hungarians, and Chuvash, all while living among Eastern Polish, Belarus, and West Ukrainian lands. If the Khazar theory was completely incorrect and the reason most of us white, red headed Jews from those lands are that way is because of mixing with the local Caucasian people... how come we do not share DNA with them, but instead with groups that are known to have been related to Khazars?!
jon357 64 | 14,382
1 Jul 2012  #17
As we've established already (and this is echoed in other threads here) the Ashkenazi Jews are not the lost descendants of the Khazars. DNA research has confirmed this beyond reasonable doubt. And although the OP's story is interesting, family legends are at best unreliable and at worst misleading - especially when they concern a civilisation that collapsed over a thousand years ago.
Nickidewbear 22 | 566
1 Jul 2012  #18
He did have a Q1b marker, so he's a Jew of Khazar descent--which I don't mind as long as he's not shilling for Arthur Koestler or Shlomo Sand. Also, 52% of Ashkenazim Lewj'im have R1a1.
jon357 64 | 14,382
1 Jul 2012  #19
As I remember, Koestler retracted that early theory in the end.
OP genecps 7 | 131
1 Jul 2012  #21
And although the OP's story is interesting, family legends are at best unreliable and at worst misleading - especially when they concern a civilisation that collapsed over a thousand years ago.

No one said that Ashkenazi Jews are descendants of Khazars. What I said is that 1 in 20 Ashkenazi Jews has Khazars DNA, that DNA testing has proven this!
jon357 64 | 14,382
1 Jul 2012  #22
No one said that Ashkenazi Jews are descendants of Khazars.

Unfortunately they do. Racists sometimes say that, including on here.
OP genecps 7 | 131
1 Jul 2012  #23
Arabs try to say that all Jews of European descent are Khazars, and yes genetics disproves this as Jews from Europe are closely related to Jews from Arab countries.

And the other side of this equation is those Jews that say that there is zero Khazar blood among Jews from Eastern Europe.

What seems more logical: That the 4,000 members of the upper class who chose Judaism of their own free will and liked their religion just converted or mixed in with other people, or is it more likely that they chose to mix with their coreligionists?

Just because Jews who do not have any Khazar blood "don't think" anyone else does... doesn't make it true! And their view is extremely biased (for obvious reasons).
Nickidewbear 22 | 566
1 Jul 2012  #24
Just because Jews who do not have any Khazar blood "don't think" anyone else does... doesn't make it true! And their view is extremely biased (for obvious reasons).

Hang on, though: I never said that you didn't have Khazar blood. I just said that that's not your primary identity (and it least it shouldn't be!).
p3undone 8 | 1,135
1 Jul 2012  #25
genecps,I am not at all knowledgeable about this subject,Why is they're an aversion for some Jews to accept that others have Khazar blood?
OP genecps 7 | 131
1 Jul 2012  #26
Hang on, though: I never said that you didn't have Khazar blood. I just said that that's not your primary identity (and it least it shouldn't be!).

Oh boy... here we go again... and what should my primary identity be O Great Maharishi??
OP genecps 7 | 131
1 Jul 2012  #28
genecps,I am not at all knowledgeable about this subject,Why is they're an aversion for some Jews to accept that others have Khazar blood?

The reality of it is simple:
1. It would give fuel to Arabs who claim that ALL Jews are Khazars.
2. Jealousy, there is a pecking order among Jews based on race too (being white is considered better among Jews too).
3. It makes them feel that people like me are not interested in upholding the status qoe that we are all the same.

Jewish!

Why not white?

Jewish is my religion, and if I converted to, lets say Christianity... no one would call me a Jew anymore, but I would still be white, which means white is more of a permanent trait for me.
legend 3 | 669
1 Jul 2012  #29
There is no doubt that "some" Khazars converted or were Jews. However there is large debate on how many. I have seen a huge variety of guesses from 5-95%.
OP genecps 7 | 131
1 Jul 2012  #30
p3undone, I noticed that it plays out like this: When I speak to Jews of Russian descent who look white, and tell them there there is probably a chance that they are descended from Khazars, most tend to say "Yah, that could be". The only people that fight with me on this are darker Semitic looking Jews who tend to have a chip on their shoulders against white people. There is a small, but growing movement of us, who consider ourselves white to make an expat community in the Jewish Autonomous Oblast (Russia). Most of us feel that it's a split that is necessary to happen, because we are tired of douche-bags telling us who we are and who we not. You wanna be a Semite, move to Israel and be a Semite. We are perfectly comfortable being white Europeans who practice Judaism. What you will see in the future is that most of us will start calling anyone who is a white Jew a Khazar. People seem not to understand one basic human principle: people naturally gravitate towards others who look like them (Irish girls flock to me). It's a normal thing, and there is nothing wrong with it. A few of us are actually working on starting a motorcycle club that we will call after the Khazars, and that will increase our visibility and attract even more people. This is necessary to prevent the "YOUR NOT WHITE, YOU ARE A JEW" crowd from driving the white Jews away from our faith through marriage and living in communities of other people (it's like they do not understand that we like being who we are- white). I hope this makes sense to you, because most non white Jews are too dumb to understand this concept and stop disrespecting us (sad reality).


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