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70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies


jon357 74 | 21,778
23 Jul 2013 #61
Oh, I see, catching at a straw again

What 'straw'? The facts have been presented to you. People's homes were stolen, and after 1937, their churches stolen, their language suppressed, and their protests met with gunfire.

A tragic history.
Harry
23 Jul 2013 #62
it was taking place from 1921 to 1925.

Clearly I need to repeat for the third time, might I refer you to the Act on Nationalization of North-Eastern Powiats of the Republic "ustawa z dnia 17 grudnia 1920 r. o przejęciu na własność Państwa ziemi w niektórych powiatach Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej".
OP pawian 221 | 24,014
23 Jul 2013 #63
To jon:
The military settlement of the Eastern Borderlands has a lasting place in the history of the Second Republic, even though it only included some 9000 soldiers who actually fought for independence during the 1914-1920 period.

Clearly I need to repeat for the third time,

Is that all what you are able to achieve here??? :):)
jon357 74 | 21,778
23 Jul 2013 #64
Unfortunately your source is less reliable than The Economist article. One is putting a point of view, one is neutral.

And yes, it was 17,700 people moved there.
OP pawian 221 | 24,014
23 Jul 2013 #65
Unfortunately your source is less reliable than The Economist article. One is putting a point of view, one is neutral.

So, Economist has become an authority on historical issues.... :):):)

And yes, it was 17,700 people moved there.

Never mind, my 9000 against your 17 something doesnt` really matter. The fact is that there was sort of Polish ex-military colonisation in the East in 1921-25 and Ukrainians/Belarussians objected a lot because they wanted to take the land for themselves.
Harry
23 Jul 2013 #66
The military settlement of the Eastern Borderlands has a lasting place in the history of the Second Republic

LOL! I wonder why you edited out the link to that source? Could it be because even that source agrees that the land was stolen land?

on March 24th,1923, Parliament adopted a resolution calling on the government to stop seizing land for the purpose of establishing new military settlements.

Nice one pawian!
TheOther 6 | 3,674
23 Jul 2013 #67
...Poland practiced a harsh policy of assimilation of its national minorities.

Interesting. Exactly what the Prussians/ Germans are usually accused of... :)
OP pawian 221 | 24,014
23 Jul 2013 #68
LOL! I wonder why you edited out the link to that source

I wanted to prepare a better one! :):)

on March 24th,1923, Parliament adopted a resolution calling on the government to stop seizing land for the purpose of establishing new military settlements.

Don`t bother, jon said it is an untrustoworthy source. :):):) You should believe him, shouldnt` you? :):):)

To know what word was actually used in that original Sejm declaration of 1923 you would have to dig in the archives.
jon357 74 | 21,778
23 Jul 2013 #69
Interesting. Exactly what the Prussians/ Germans are usually accused of... :)

There isn't much doubt about it - and after all the two cultures are neighbours. Germany does however tend to be more pragnmatic about acknowledging the past I don't remember saying that though - are you sure it's a quote from me?

So, Economist has become an authority on historical issues.... :):):)

It always has been well researched.

Polish ex-military colonisation in the East in 1921-25

The worst of it was later, after 1937 as you were told a few minutes ago.

Ukrainians/Belarussians objected a lot because they wanted to take the land for themselves.

Perhaps because they lived there?

Nice one pawian!

Oh dear...
TheOther 6 | 3,674
23 Jul 2013 #70
I don't remember saying that though - are you sure it's a quote from me?

Oh sorry, it's taken from the quote of the Economist that you posted on page 2.
OP pawian 221 | 24,014
23 Jul 2013 #71
It always has been well researched.

If you say so, we must believe you. :):):)

Ok, now I must check other threads.

See you here soon! :):)
jon357 74 | 21,778
23 Jul 2013 #72
we must believe you

Most people would. They have a first class reputation for integrity and a much better reputation than the internet sites that you try to selectively quote.
OP pawian 221 | 24,014
24 Jul 2013 #73
I've read that only 4% of the Osadniks actually lived on 'their' land.

Source, please... :) After all, it was you who demanded facts: :):):)

We tried to discuss this topic with you like an adult, but instead you just act like a child; so, no silly accusations, just statements of fact.

Unfortunately your source is less reliable than The Economist article. One is putting a point of view, one is neutral.
And yes, it was 17,700 people moved there.

Where in the article you gave us link to is the reference to the number 17700????

An excellent article on this:

Where is there any reference to Polish pre-war settlement policy in Kresy?

It seems you don`t know what you are talking about and you mix all your sources. :):):)

Jon, get a grip and run a serious discussion but first you need to do more reading on the topic. (possibly, not through 1000-word articles from Economist .....)

jon357: It always has been well researched.

Sorry, I have to withdraw this one. :):)

They have a first class reputation for integrity and a much better reputation than the internet sites that you try to selectively quote.

:):):)
Harry
24 Jul 2013 #74
Harry: I've read that only 4% of the Osadniks actually lived on 'their' land.

Source, please... :) After all, it was you who demanded facts: :):):)

Andrzej Gawryszewski (2005). "XI: Przemieszczenia ludności". In Ludmiła Leszczyńska. Ludność Polski w XX wieku. Warsaw: Polish Academy of Sciences. pp. 381–383. ISBN 83−87954−66−7.

Władysław Pobóg-Malinowski (1990). Najnowsza historia polityczna Polski 1864-1945 II. Warsaw: Krajowa Agencja Wydawnicza. pp. 623–624. ISBN 83-03-03162-7.

Enjoy.
OP pawian 221 | 24,014
24 Jul 2013 #75
hahahaha :):):)

Enjoy.

Yes, I do enjoy the fact that you only copied the references from this Wiki site
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_population_transfers_%281944%E2%80%9346%29

instead of quoting directly from it:
The situation was however aggravated by the fact that only 4 percent of the newly-arrived settlers lived on their land, while the majority either rented their land to local farmers at a high price or abandoned their land altogether, a situation unacceptable to many inhabitants of the overpopulated and land hunger-stricken region

Embarrassed to admit you use Wiki? :):):) Come on.....

But thank you anyway. :):):) This matter is really very intriguing and needs further research on our side.

Jon, Harry has just provided a source for you to solve your numerical problem with Polish settlers in Kresy:
In Poland, 8,265 settlers (mostly of Polish ethnicity) were settled by the government in Kresy.
Harry
24 Jul 2013 #76
Yes, I do enjoy the fact that you only copied the references from this Wiki site

That would be because I didn't take those references from that page. I took them from this page:...

instead of quoting directly from it:

You didn't ask for quotes: you asked for sources; so I gave you sources. Do feel very free to argue with them.

Hopefully the sources I give won't be like the one you offered, i.e. confirm the exact opposite of what you claimed the source actually said.
OP pawian 221 | 24,014
24 Jul 2013 #77
That would be because I didn't take those references from that page. I took them from this page:

It doesn`t matter which Wiki page you took it from. What matters is you chose rather random references to prove your point. You haven`t read those books you mentioned, have you? So how do you know that they comprise the 4% issue we are talking about????

Isn`t it funny?

You didn't ask for quotes: you asked for sources; so I gave you sources. Do feel very free to argue with them.

hahaha you are very accurate, indeed. Quotes are not sources, true. :):):)

So, the random sources you provided from a Wiki site are fully enough in your opinion?
BBman - | 344
24 Jul 2013 #78
Yesterday, the Parliament didn`t proclaim "genocide" (as PiS and smaller parties demanded) but "ethnic cleansing of genocidal character" (PO).

No surprise here, only you know who can have a genocide.
jon357 74 | 21,778
24 Jul 2013 #79
your numerical problem

Now, you're deliberately tring to confuse the two periods in which properties were taken by the Polish government. Would you like a reference for the figure of 17,000?

It seems you don`t know what you are talking about and you mix all your sources. :):):)

Again, you're trying to confuse - but not very well, since there are many sources for the happenings between 1921 and 1939.

1000-word articles from Economist .

Respectable - and far more authoritative than 'kresy.pl' who exist to present a point of view.

Hopefully the sources I give won't be like the one you offered, i.e. confirm the exact opposite of what you claimed the source actually said.

Precisely.
OP pawian 221 | 24,014
25 Jul 2013 #80
Respectable - and far more authoritative than 'kresy.pl' who exist to present a point of view.

Don`t be silly, you only think it is authoritative.
Let`s be honest, the article is a history in a pill for simpletons - it contains a few mistakes. And it also presents a point of view, e.g, quotes from that Lviv based historian which are nonsense:

Mr Hrytsak says. "You had a terrain that was ready to explode." What followed was genocide, he says, but it must be viewed within the context of a pyramid of genocidal acts committed on the territory of Ukraine in the 1930s and 1940s, starting from the Holocaust and ending on Akcja Wisła, the forced deportation of tens of thousands of Ukrainians.

Would you like a reference for the figure of 17,000?

No, thanks, you took it from English Wiki entry on massacre.

But again you messed things up

Are you trying to suggest that the 17,000 veterans who were promised land were handed the keys by the owners

while the Wiki says:
By 1938, thousands of Polish colonists and war veterans were encouraged to settle in Volhynia and Galicia. This number is estimated at 17,700 in Volhynia alone

So, the number 17700 doesn`t only refer to military settlers, but to all colonists.

Andrzej Gawryszewski (2005)

OK, I will try to check these sources soon.

Guys, see you next week, we are going away.
jon357 74 | 21,778
25 Jul 2013 #81
Mr Hrytsak says. "You had a terrain that was ready to explode."

I'd rather trust that historian than 'kresy.pl'

No, thanks, you took it from English Wiki entry on massacre.

Actually I didn't, but never mind.

So, the number 17700 doesn`t only refer to military settlers, but to all colonists.

Who said it did refer only to the military occupiers?

OK, I will try to check these sources soon.

Try Professor Żak's excellent book on the topic. Amazon stock it.
OP pawian 221 | 24,014
2 Aug 2013 #82
Sad. There's still so much bitterness on the part of ordinary people over the whole thing.

It is natural that some kind of reconciliation should take place, similar to the Polish German one. Of course, the weight is different, after all, Germans murdered people on a much greater scale.

However, it is difficult for Poles from old Kresy regions to reconcile when Ukrainians (from Western Ukraine) openly honour the organisers (both physical and moral) of the massacres.

Monument to Bandera in Lwow:

Poland Bandera

and to UPA:

Poland UPA

That is what Poles think about it.
Polonius3 994 | 12,367
2 Aug 2013 #83
stolen land

Look who's talking! Any Brit is the least qualified to accuse another nation of land stealing. Britain's colonial terrorist expeditionary forces conquered countries at every corner of the globe, stole, carried away or despoiled natural resources and killed, maimed, tortured and jailed natives trying to defend their land. Under their blood-stained Union Jack, British colonisers forcibly shoved their English language, culture and folkways down the throats of unwilling people world-wide. The settling of eastern reaches of the former Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth by several thousand Polish freedom-fighters in tiny, puny, little Poland pales by comparison. It's a question of a huge soot-stained cauldron calling a speck of coal black!
Nile 1 | 154
2 Aug 2013 #84
Could it be because even that source agrees that the land was stolen land?

The stolen land? You are entitled to your opinion but seems strange that a person who is upholding such a laughable point of view not only reside in Poland but also usurps a right to speak for Polish people.
Polonius3 994 | 12,367
2 Aug 2013 #85
stolen land

Unlike non-colonial countries which over the ages have conquered and annexed adjacent territory, the Brits (together with the Dutch, French, Spanish and Portuguese) conquered and took possession of (or stole, if you prefer) land at every corner of the globe. They claimed it, exploited it to the hilt and reduced its rightful owners to serf or slave status.
goofy_the_dog
2 Aug 2013 #86
Give us the land back!
And the money that we have lost during WW2... western cowards :(
skinner
2 Aug 2013 #87
Unlike non-colonial countries

What is non-colonial about the PLC? The Rus people, who are the ancestors of Belarusians and Ukrainians lived there continuously since before Poland and Lithuania took the lands. They ended up as the ones with serf and slave status.
Polonius3 994 | 12,367
2 Aug 2013 #88
What is non-colonial about the PLC

How far back do you want to go? To the migraiton of peoples period? The Avars, Huns, Mongols, Goths and myriad other tribal nations wandered across Europe to and fro, conquering, interbreeding, annexing and in turn receding, disappearing or melting into the then-indigenous population.
OP pawian 221 | 24,014
5 Aug 2013 #89
Re-enactment against re-enactment.

Poles had theirs on 20 July depicting Ukrainian attack on a Polish village:

Ukrainian attack on a Polish village

Ukrainian attack on a Polish village

Ukrainian attack on a Polish village

Ukrainian attack on a Polish village

Yesterday, Ukrainians made a re-enactment about Poles attacking a Ukrainian village and UPA defending it.
Polonius3 994 | 12,367
5 Aug 2013 #90
Poles attacking a Ukrainian village and UPA defending

And what is the body count on both sides of the Wołyń massacre?


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