70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies

Polish victim count was 3,4 times higher. Why?

That's obvious. Poles were trying to defend themselves against the rampaging Ukrainian terrorists who used the most barbaric of massacre techniques -- forks, axes, iron bars, impaling stakes, drownign people in wells and torching of homesteads. When Poles tried to escape the conflagration, they were bludgeoned to death by bloodthirsty Ukrainian thugs.

Yes. First, there was self-defence, local Polish villagers tried to repel the attackers with what weapons they had at the time.
Then, Polish partisan units came to help villagers and they took part in repelling Ukrainian terrorists from UPA.
But eventually, there were cases of revenge, too. Poles attacked Ukranian villages and killed inhabitants. Sad but true.

Yes, those who tried to leave the area were chased and killed too. Today Ukrainians claim that UPA only wanted to expulse Poles from the disputed territory. But it is not true - they wanted to exterminate all Poles to make sure the land is clean.


E.g., here:
Huta Stepańska was an ethnic Polish village, located in prewar Kostopol county, Wołyń Voivodeship, in the Second Polish Republic. In 1943, during the Massacres of Poles in Volhynia, it became an important Polish self-defence centre, captured by the UPA between 16 and 18 July 1943. Some 2,000 UIA soldiers, supported by 3,000 local Ukrainian peasants, killed 300 Poles (other sources put number of victims at 600),[1] as they were trying to break out of the encirclement.[2]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huta_Stepa%C5%84ska


E.g.,
A second attack took place on July 12, the UPA concentrated its forces on the village of Rafalowka. The Polish side managed to force the enemy to flee, but this was not the end. As Henryk Cybulski wrote in his memoirs, throughout the summer of 1943 the "war for grain" persisted. The number of Poles in Przebraże was too high and its defenders realized that it was impossible to feed so many people. Thus, in April and July 1943, Polish peasants, guarded by patrols, were harvesting crops, transporting it to the settlement. The Ukrainians would attack the peasants, killing several.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przebra%C5%BCe_Defence


Sahryń was the site of the initial thrust of the AK counter-offensive against UPA, under the command of Lieutenant Zenon Jachymek,[2] due to Ukrainian self-defence stationing there.[4]

At dawn on March 10, 1944 the AK unit from Division Hrubieszow attacked the fortified village. A heavy fighting broke out.[2] The Ukrainians retreated, but both Catholic and Orthodox churches in Sahryń were burned down.[2] Some 700 villagers were killed by the AK in reprisal, and 260 farmhouses set of fire.[3]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahry%C5%84


What did Poles take revenge for?

E.g.,

On August 30, 1943, armed members of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UIA) murdered 438 Poles. Among the victims there were 246 children under 14 years of age.[1] On the same day, the insurgents murdered 529 Poles in the neighboring village of Wola Ostrowiecka (see Massacre of Wola Ostrowiecka).[2] After the massacre, Ostrówki was burnt to the ground, and all goods were looted by local peasants. In September 1943, commandant of the local UIA unit Lysiy reported to the UIA's headquarters: "I have carried out the operation in the villages of Wola Ostrowiecka and Ostrovky. I have liquidated all Poles, from the youngest to the oldest ones. I burnt all buildings, and appropriated all goods".[3]

The massacre followed a schem

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Ostr%C3%B3wki

Exhumation and second funeral

An estimated 100,000 to 130,000 Poles (the exact number will never be known!) were butchered by bloodthirsty Ukrainian fanatics in Wołyń and Eastern Małopolska. Several thousand Urkrainians also died in the fray when Poles organised self-defence groups to protect their homes and villages from the rampaging ethnic cleansers. That is a huge difference.

Yes, Poland WAS in very difficult situation. But the very same justification was used by Ukrainian nationalists. They were also placed between two hostile powers - Poland and Russia. This is where nationalism leads.


I'm merely following your logic - and read the full context.

You want some more recent history - OK.


Do you see the connection now ? It was a despicable way to fight Polish occupants to be sure, and it had opposition even in OUN. But Ukrainians had every reason to feel oppressed.

Is anyone still surprised that Polonization never works ?

----------------

The bottom line is that there's a lot of mutual hostility between Poles and Ukrainians. But no reconciliation can ever happen until both sides play fair. Poland should make a good example.

It's in interest of Russia to fan the flames. Russia is deeply scared that Poland will cooperate with Ukraine. Ukraine has very fertile land, and it lies on the East-West crossroads of the continent. Ukraine can develop nuclear weapons within months - it has all the needed technology. Ukraine has access to Black Sea through Dniepr river. River and water transport is extremely profitable - Jacek Bartosiak from Narodowe Centrum Studiów Strategicznych (National Center of Strategic Studies) says 11-20 times cheaper than land transport. "Free City Gdańsk" - "Wolne Miasto Gdańsk" - used to make huge profits on river transport. If Wisła is made navigable again - Poland can make huge profits on transport between Gdańsk and Odessa and Black Sea. And European Union is very eager to finance the restoration of E-40 waterway, it's just polish ministers that don't give a crap. Also, Ukraine has very advanced military industry, in some ways better than Poland. Not to mention natural resources. Ukraine, like Poland, lies on the new Chinese Silk Road. If Russia controls Ukraine, you can be sure they'll find a way to deny Poland profits.

Yeah Poles used it to justify arresting 3 thousand people, they used it to murder 100 thousand. They justified, we guilty :))) Feck off troll.

You mean the Poles who carried out Operation Wisla? You remember them, the Poles who ethnically cleansed part of Poland, deporting more than a hundred and fourty thousand people, mostly women and children, to the 'recovered territories' where the survivors and their descendants are currently sneered at by you.

Maybe you should start up a new thread called Pole-bashing Corner or maybe set up an entirely separate forum called Polanophobes United. Surely quite a few PF-ers who always support the "other side" that Poland is in conflict with. There they could spread their wings and bash away to their heart's content. The Brit Bullies will probably be the first to sign up.

I knew about Operacja Wisła ("Operation Vistula"), but it had to come from someone else or they wouldn't believe.

Ukrainians feel betrayed by Piłsudski, with whom Petliura signed a deal. The Poles changed their mind. A good analogy is Napoleon Bonaparte + Henryk Dąbrowski.

So don't act surprised.

I have to wonder what post 92 has to do with the threads title? That is clearly off-topic.

Yes, Pol3, for most part you are boring and dry like a three years old hardtack but when you hit the nail on the head you do right.

Y0U OUGHT TO READ : HIRKA PRAWDA = BITTER TRUTH by POLISZCZUK ----learn the facts.

anniversary of Volhynian slaughter. Reminder!

yep did u listen to duda and morawiecki speeches? i did. the ukranian ambassador was there too.

Respect for brat Duda for talking truth.

Now, as we approach the 80th anniversary of the massacre in Wolyn, it is appropriate to reflect on how things have evolved over the past ten years.


No, no! This is incorrect. A bullet to the head, or a rocket falling on your apartment, during war, is still most cruel genocide. This is what the Russians do now. Using pitchforks to toss babies shows that the Ukrainians maintained brotherly restraint throughout.


Uhmm, excuse me? It is most definitely genocide. If it's children that are being resettled away from a war zone, then it's genocide squared!

Towards peace.

If it evolved towards Peace, as you say Jon - then Poland is truly the Christ among Nations.


How Pawian has changed)

Poland is certainly doing much to maintain peace in Europe, as well as working with Ukraine and others to eliminate the threat from Muscovy,

You got to the heart of the matter.

I see you have no appetite for discussing Ukrainian nationalists and their heinous crimes.

Perhaps I should have tried a different angle... What is the proper name of the largest city in Western Ukraine? Options:

1) Lvov
2) Lwow
3) Lemberg
4) Lviv

No, it wasn`t. It was ethnic cleansing.


How have pawian`s views changed???

Are you not a member of the Church of Ukraine? In this past year you have told me I'm an agitator for claiming there are Banderists in Ukraine. When the former UA ambassador to Germany, Melnyk, said Bandera was a fine man and that the Poles had it coming - you didn't believe me until I provided you a link.

It is simply impossible. You are mistaking me with another poster.


Such an event has never taken place with me involved. You are thinking of sb else.

Go and find a thread called "East Europe's Wild Nature - flora and fauna (zoological thread)".

There you may find such pearls as below:


... and more interesting quotes. I understand that this war has made everybody emotional, but we should not forget to use our reason.

Everybody has to ask his heart to answer this question...



... it's a city of mixed heritage, what can I say - answers will vary. Of course, one could argue that such a lovely city should belong to a nation most magnanimous, civilised and noble, and to a country in which borders it remained for the longest period of time, but unfortunately we all know that history doesn't work like this.

You could add Львов, Լվով or לבוב to your options, but taking into account the city's history, we should probably agree on its Latin name: Leopolis. :)

Lviv, however it's been all 4 in its time and may yet be something else in future.

@GefreiterKania

Stalin was too clever by half. He thought he would permanently sow discord between the Poles and Ukrainians by annexing Lvov. Lvov turned out to be a time bomb under the Soviet Union itself. Much more shrewd would have been to give the Carpathians and Lvov to the Poles, and earn eternal alliance of the Ukrainians and Madyars :)

No, show me direct posts in which I said sth about agitator or you sent me a link.
So, my first question is still pending: how have pawian`s views changed???

@pawian

I think it's in Polanda, I can't find it. I felt that what I found was better, but ok!

You can`t coz it didn`t exist. If you find and show me, I will apologise, as I always do. :):):)


How is it better??

Let me repeat : how have pawian`s views changed????