Modern F-35 bought by Poland. Good decision?

And you are one of the Bullies trying to intimidate him.
If you want a twin engine jet that does mach 1.9 beg President Trump to give Germany some F-22 Raptors.

@johnny reb

Why should we beg? Typhoon makes mach 1.9 and has twin engines. Works perfect till.our 6th gen jet is ready.

That said, Poland doesnt annoy Germany. We are indifferent about it. In most instances we simply ignore Poland. You should worry more about France.

As long as Poland makes use of single market to grow its economy I'm totally fine with that. The rest is just a left-leaning ideological rubbish


On the contrary. In German interest is to keep Polish, and other CE economies, as a subordinate economies complimenting a German industry and not directly competing with it. Obviously this is against the best interest of Poland.

In the past those kind of tensions were being "resolved" by a military actions which option is unavailable for you due to obvious reasons. All you can do is to try to influence the politics in Poland, but don't fool yourself - the swing to the right in Poland is a long term trend.And the way I see it, Poland is now much more politically stable than Germany is.

I'd argue that the USA isn't any more isolationist than it was 10, 25, 40 years ago. The difference now is that we are pressuring other allies to increase what they contribute to NATO, pulling back some of our police actions (though we remain engaged diplomatically), and seek more balanced trade agreements.

@Spike31

Will be interetsing when Germany swings to the right as well.

AfD is pro good relations with Russia. Im sure we find a good solution that suits both sides regarding Poland.

Don't try to scare others, or you will sh*t yourself. Hmm... it sounds much better in Polish (nie strasz, nie strasz, bo się zesrasz). :)

Slim chance, only a state within state that is East Germany is right leaning. The rest of Germany is left leaning and considers those left leaning centrists from CDU/CSU to be a conservative right ;-)

So is Merkel. What new?


Good luck.


Next millennium?

Are you really accusing the one Western politician who has always been sceptical of Putin as "pro-Russia" and who coordinated the sanction regime against Russia after the Ukraine crisis as pro-Russia?

Say what you want about Merkel, she has been the first German politician who placed more importance on having good relations with Poland than with Russia, and it is a pity that PiS has done everything to sabotage that for domestic reasons. I suspect that many people will only realize that once she is gone, and the next German chancellors' follows Macron's approach of reconciliation with Russia.


There is a very clear pivot in the foreign policy of the USA away from Europe to Asia, that started already under Obama. Trump is de facto working on the dissulotion of Nato, making it slowly more acceptable for Americans to leave, by feeding into the false narrative that it does not benefit the USA. And that poses of course a challenge to Poland.

Khem... nord stream I & II...khem

@ Tacitus

The clearer Trump's foreign policy becomes, what I see is Trump trying to correct Obama's pivot. Trump's foreign policy seems to be about strong deterrence (that certainly means paying a lot attention to China but it also includes deterring Iran and Russia, and that's why he isn't working to dissolve NATO but reform it in a meaningful way so it can project real power and have Euros share more of the financial burden (you guys have been eating a free US-subsidized lunch for too long :) )), equitable trade agreements, combatting terrorism, and disentangling the US in costly police actions (Syria, for example).

Aside from the fact Merkel has little actual involvement in this project - mostly done by German buisnessmen and local politicians of the cities that serve as destination - this is hardly cantradictory. Countries like Poland and the Ukraine are also receiving Russian gas and are acting as transit countries, despite viewing Russia as their number one security risk.


You see, that is part of the false narrative that Trump is feeding you to later justify leaving Nato. American defence spending is almost exclusively centered around Asia and the Middle East, and European soldiers are still fighting in the only war that triggered the Nato defence article, namely Afghanistan. I mean it is not Trump has done anything to decrease American defense spending, on the contrary actually.

@Spike31

Wrong. AfD reaches record high results in most states. In bavaria and ba-wü on east german levels.

You fall in a trap. You believe some liberal shithead media to be "Germany" and thats the trap where also Merkel felt into.

The left in Germany is dead, thats why they break apart right now.

As for our poor neighbor and NS I and II. German energy projects are none of polands business.

Stick to the topic please

Perfect ? You are a humorous guy.
So does the F-22 Raptor make mach 1.9 and works even better with it's stealth which the Typhoon does not have.
The Typhoon has its fighting chance "IF" it can get close enough through jamming of it's radar.
If a whole flight of Raptors meets a flight of Typhoons, the Raptors will eat their advisories for breakfast.
RCS of Typhoon from all angles but frontal is so high, that the Raptors would have launched missiles, before the Typhoons even know the Raptors are around.

If Typhoons have to penetrate F22 airspace, the outcome is even worse for the Typhoons.
If the Raptors receive enemy location and targeting information from awacs or ground radar, Typhoon is lost.


I hate to pee on your parade W. but by then the U.S. will have unmanned fighter jets that we are presently working on that can pull unheard of G-forces that no pilot could possibly withstand.

These are the fighter jets that will be based in Poland just in case anyone wants to get dumb.
Your 6th gen jet is already crap before it even comes off the production line.
Or as Auntie Atch would say, "Put that on your needles and knit it."

How is the narrative false? The vast majority of NATO nations do, indeed, underfund their military's and do not spend the agreed upon 2% of their GDP on defense. Do you agree that this weakens NATO? And, that the USA is left to fill that void to maintain the credibility of NATO defense power? I've seen reports where the German military is only 30-40% operationally ready at any time. That the French military would find it dificult to maintain a brigade over even a short period of time.


You may be right about that, I'm not sure; but, it isn't necessarily an indicator that America is looking to fold up NATO. It is an indicator of what America sees as the biggest threat to not only America, but the West : China. But having said that, there is still the reality that America is concerned with Russia, i.e. new US garrisons in Ploland.

Think about this and tell me what you think: if Trump wanted to leave NATO, why would he constantly be badgering NATO nations to increase defense spending? To me, the only reason he'd be doing that is so Europe would be strong enough to defend itself. But, if that is the reason, why build new garrisons. Also consider how hard Trump has been lobbying NATO to develop a strategy to deal with China and Iran?


In fact he has increased significantly, as he should, IMO. Deterrence is a major part of Trump 's foreign policy. As a historian, would you say that historically, deterrence has been one of, if not the best, purveyor of peace?

@johnny reb

Hope your fighter jets wont use MCAS like your Boeing crap does ha ha ha

@ Private Weimarer


Hoffnung in der einen Hand und Mist in der anderen und sehen, welche am schnellsten füllt. ha ha ha
Poland has every right to defend herself any way she wants, picking her allies that she wants, buying the military equipment she wants and so on.

You come here insinuating Germany will have it's way with Poland and her allies again and again instead of sticking to the topic.
If Poland wants to choose the U.S.A. for an allie and you don't then take notice Poland isn't talking smack that their jet can beat up your jet like a punk bully on the play ground.

And Poland is free to suck any dick they choose, provided that Uncle Sam is on the other end of that dick. ;)

I use to like you but you just ended that.
No, Velund, it was a touché.
Commandant.Weimarer stated that Germany could buy gas from Russia at their choosing so I stated that Poland could buy their jet fighters from their choosing.

You must have been to short to get it.


Uncle Sam didn't send the Polish people to the Gulag's or Auschwitz.

The price that you mentioned for Poland includes, apart from airplanes, logistics systems, and next generation crew training equipment (pilot and maintenance) - it's a cutting-edge training system (full mission simulators for pilots and hands-on exercises with all systems simulators for maintenance crews). The aircraft themselves are offered at exactly the same price as they were offered to other countries, but we are getting a lot of additional stuff.

@johnny reb

Actually not, the Typhoon did beat the F35 in NATO war games dog fights. Even worse, its easy prey for the russian SU-35 as well. As i said, its a crap aircraft. There is a reason why the only real military that uses them "UK" sticks to typhoon

businessinsider.com/f-35-could-not-dogfight-typhoon-su-35-2016-8?r=DE&IR=T

The F-35 cannot outdogfight a Typhoon (or a Su-35), never in a million years."

For that reason, older fighters like the Eurofighter Typhoon or the Sukhoi Su-35 could most likely outmaneuver and destroy an F-35 in a close-range confrontation.

"Typhoon and Su-35 both have positive thrust-to-weight ratios at combat loadings, meaning that they can accelerate vertically and generally both maintain and regain energy in a turn much more successfully than the F-35 (particularly the heavier B and C models)," Bronk said.

Not only does stealth limit the F-35's mobility, but it also limits its capacity for ordnance.

"Typhoon and Su-35 also carry larger missile loadouts than F-35 in normal combat configurations, meaning that at close range they have twice as many infrared seeking missiles to fire at their opponents," Bronk said.

As Business Insider previously explored, infrared tracking is key to finding and fighting advanced stealth aircraft like the F-35.

@Torq

You dont get additional stuff. You get cheated.

When Trump offered Germany the F-35 price was 125 million € per unit.

When Germany kicked the offer away and said it will go for Eurofighter, the americans tried it via price, going down to 80 million per unit plus tech exchange and production in Germany.

You know how deals are made? Not by sucking dick. Poland accepts evry price USA demands.

Who knows, Germany needs 16 jets for nuclear capability. So we might order 70 eurofighter and 20 F-35 out of mercy. Maybe we can negotiate that **** down to 60 million per unit.

But we were talking about the F-22 Raptor comparison to the Tornado.
Your redundancy is merely a deflection from my above post #224 that you refused to address.


Yes it is Ironside and I admire your knowledge of American history.
Veland is a anti-Polish and anti- American troll that has been brainwashed with Russian propaganda.

amerika.org/science/another-myth-dies-american-indians-were-not-given-smallpox-infected-blankets/

These two guys are showing their true inferiority complexes towards Poland if anything.
They are entertaining though once you see through their b.s. propaganda.

Sure, but it goes directly against what he promised. He said that he wanted the Europeans to foot the bill for the defense - a bill that doesnt really exist - but that has npt stopped him from spending even more money on defense. Spending more than you have on deterrence can also turn out poorly for you, as evidenced by the Soviet Union. And Trump has certainly created a debt problem.


Because America spends most of its' defense spending in Asia and the Middle East, so it does not matter how much the Europeans spend on their defence. In the end, the Americans will not save any money despite any increase in European spending. Furthermore it is generally in bad taste to complain about others supposedly not carrying their weight, when those others are still fighting in a war that you started and in which you asked for their help. Sure, Nato is very beneficial to Europe because it guarantees their security, but at no actual additional cost to the Americans. It were actually the Americans who placed a financial and military burden on their allies by dragging them into Afghanistan.

The only threat Europe had to face was from Germany. Now that Europe and Germany are the same, since Germany will not attack itself, you can disarm.

Russia was never a threat to Europe. It was Europe who attacked Russia and the Soviet Union.

@Rich Mazur

Stalin was worse than Hitler but that aside, this topic is about F-35, which is a crap aircraft.

Still cant believe Poland buys this **** for 125 million per unit.

observer.com/2020/01/f35-fighter-jet-flaws-inaccurate-guns-software/

Because, as Bloomberg noted on Thursday, among its many other problems, it turns out that the beleaguered nearly half-trillion-dollar, next-generation airplane just can't shoot straight.

The F-35 program cost $428 BILLION (so far).
- Guns don't shoot straight
- Gun housings crack
- Unresolved "cybersecurity vulnerabilities," including eight hundred and seventy-three software flawst.co/WFSaVQT30K

- Ben Taub (@bentaub91) January 30, 2020

But for the past few years, the over-budget F-35 has also become a sardonic punchline.As a top Air Force general noted in 2017, the plane is routinely beat by other 40-years-older jets in mock dogfights. And the Department of Defense knows it.

Which, again, begs the question: If it can't shoot, if it can't fight and if it needs a lot of help from the older planes it was supposed to replace, what, exactly, is the point of this stupid airplane? The answer may depend on how cynical you're willing to be.

That F-35 could just as easily be made of plywood and the outcome of Russia vs Poland would be the same. This comparison shows conclusively that the decision to buy them was pure politics or bribery or both.

globalfirepower.com/countries-comparison-detail.asp?form=form&country1=poland&country2=russia&Submit=COMPARE

The US would be insane to place F-35's at the Russia's doorstep and in the hands the US does not control.


Cynicism is another guy's wisdom. My best non-cynical explanation - even if F-35 was the world's best aircraft - is as above.

Russia's population is too small and the Russians too smart to get bogged down in the protracted US-style pseudo wars. In a conflict that would be as serious as the one in 1941, Russia would have no choice but to go for the nukes and turn Poland into Hiroshima times 100.

Memo to Poland: cancel that order and buy something you can actually use.

Combat aircraft:
Poland 91
Russia 873
Not even Matka Boska can make those numbers less laughable.

Sure, the F-35 program had it's difficulties - it is after all THE ONLY 5th generation fighter in the world, but now we can admire the undoubtedly best warplane in the history of planet Earth.

Poland is getting F-35 - world's most advanced fighter...

airspacemag.com/military-aviation/f-35-faces-most-critical-test-180971734/

... the more neo-nazi Germans from ex-DDR foam at the mouth, the better it means the plane really is. :)


We will be getting our own nuclear weapons, and we need stealth fighters to carry nukes in case we need to penetrate deep behind enemy lines and turn enemy targets into steaming radioactive desert. It might be Russia, it might be another country who threatens us, but we need to have this capability. Once again, I can only thank President Trump for the smart decision of selling us those deadly, stealthy, ultra-modern killing machines. :)

@Torq

A jet that is beaten by aircrafts 40 years older. :D

Im not foaming, im laughing.

Btw why cant Poland build its own aircraft? Has Poland ever build one? Why buy american rubbish? No own capability?

No, you won't be.


Don't pis* them off.


That is what two Euro-idiots thought in 1812 and 1941.


Sometimes, an ultra-modern killing machine can be an ultra-modern suicide machine.

globalfirepower.com/countries-comparison-detail.asp?form=form&country1=poland&country2=russia&Submit=COMPARE

Impossible. Because this is not the regular order, but the way to pay pizzo to US.

Polish politicians probably forgot, that pizzo is sized to be affordable, but has to be paid regularily, it is not one time payment. ;) Next time it will be huge lot of spare parts for that F-35 (absolutely neccessary to protect Poland from Russia, and overpriced just like jets itself). Then hundred of new updated helmets, custom made for each pilot. And again... And once more... And...

There is good thing for Russian developers that F-35 will be regularily available in the air nearby, to test advanced realtime "destealthing" software updates for S-400. ;)