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Modern F-35 bought by Poland. Good decision?


pawian 168 | 11,113
6 Feb 2020 #1
Polish PiS government has just signed a contract for 32 F-35 Raptors. Experts claim it is a useless expense coz we don`t need such expensive planes. The Polish air force won`t be able to take advantage of their full potential. We would be better off buying more of latest versions of F-16s which have been in use for nearly two decades now.

defensenews.com/global/europe/2020/01/31/poland-inks-46-billion-contract-for-f-35-fighter-jets/
Miloslaw 6 | 2,901
6 Feb 2020 #2
32 F-35 Raptors

Opinions are very mixed on the plane.
The RAF have ordered loads of them.
In my opinion though, overall, it is a very good plane.
Torq 28 | 2,759
6 Feb 2020 #3
The experts are right that for purely defensive purposes F-16 and F-15 (the missile trucks :)) would be better, and cheaper. However, F-35 are needed as future nuclear weapons carriers - they are able to penetrate deep behind enemy lines undetected and conduct lethal strikes. As I pointed out here...

polishforums.com/off-topic/serbia-84071/38/#msg1722694

... it is very likely that Poland will possess atomic weapons in the future, hence the necessity of having airplanes able to conduct nuclear strikes.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,834
6 Feb 2020 #4
Russia is shaking in its boots because Poland has F-35s. Poland - the country that would exist for 15 minutes if the conflict turned nuclear. Stupid as ever.
Torq 28 | 2,759
6 Feb 2020 #5
Russia is shaking in its boots because Poland has F-35s.

F-35s will give us capability of conducting a pre-emptive strike against Kaliningrad Oblast nuclear missiles, which are there solely for the purpose of attacking Poland (their maximum range of 500km proves that), as well as penetrating undetected into Russian airspace and destroying their nuclear power plants for example.

Poland - the country that would exist for 15 minutes if the conflict turned nuclear.

If the conflict turns nuclear, the world won't last much longer than that either. So, let's all hope it won't happen, but if it does we will at least have the capability to respond.

Stupid as ever.

Strengthening Polish armed forces is a smart move by PiS (a rarity for them), and getting F-35s is only one element in it. At the current rate of development and level of purchases, Wojsko Polskie will eventually be stronger than the Bundeswehr, and that's what we need to aim for (we are a frontier country after all). Si vis pacem, para bellum, and all that.

Besides, it is quite probable that Americans will one day withdraw from Europe, and NATO stops functioning as a reliable alliance. We need to have formidable armed forces before that happens. It's a question of our very existence.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,834
6 Feb 2020 #6
F-35 will give us a capability of conducting a pre-emptive strike against Kaliningrad Oblast nuclear missiles,

From the bottom of my loving heart - don't do it. Actually, don't even think about it.
Just remember that the American swamp hates winning wars since victories are bad for the swampy profits. Don't believe me? Look at Afghanistan.
Torq 28 | 2,759
6 Feb 2020 #7
Actually, don't even think about it.

If we have to, we will. Polish military intelligence is one of the best in the world, so when we get info that Russia wants to fire those missiles against us, our F-35s will take them out in Kaliningrad, before they get a chance to start.

F-35s stealth capabilities will allow them to conduct such strike undetected. President Trump made a brilliant move by allowing Poland to purchase the planes - it increases American safety as well.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,834
6 Feb 2020 #8
F-35s stealth capabilities will allow them to conduct such strike undetected.

No doubt. It's what's going to happen in the next hour that you should think about really hard.

Torq, you are a nice guy so I will skip my usual nasty kind of sarcasm.

I know the US, the swamp and the corruption. It is worse than even the Americans could dream up, so you are excused.
With the probability approaching 100%, this is what happened. The swamp either did some arm twisting, bribing or both to make Poland buy those F's. They did this to make money, and to deflect any criticism from the real conservatives like me that the US is getting entangled in another zone where the American interests are none.

With that purchase, their line is: See, Poland buying our planes is good for the US economy and keeps the US safe. Or at least safer. This last bs came up lately when Ukraine was the subject during the impeachment in this manner: Ukraine is vital to the US security.

No, I am not making this sh*it up. Sending boatloads of money to China is not that important but arming Ukraine or delaying the delivery of 400 million bucks to it by a week is an existential threat to the United States. Sure. That was sarcasm. Sorry.

Bottom line: when dealing with US swamp, always follow the money.
Torq 28 | 2,759
6 Feb 2020 #9
Well, no matter how corrupt "the swamp", as you call it, is - from Polish point of view it's always better to have modern weapons systems than not to have them.

We bought some new weapons in recent years, our professional armed forces grew in numbers (to about 120,000), and 24,000 strong, semi-professional, territorial defence was created (it will reach 53,000 in about 3 years, and it will train even more reservists with time).

The point of all this is not to start a war, or provoke anybody, but to make any invasion of Poland inviable (the cost of it would be much higher than any potential gain). When you think about it, Rich, it's the only sensible thing to do, because if the sh*t hits the fan, it will be 1939 all over again - we will have to rely only on ourselves (but we will be better prepared this time).
OP pawian 168 | 11,113
6 Feb 2020 #10
anybody, but to make any invasion of Poland inviable

I still can`t forget the September campaign 1939. Polish air force fought hard and resisted German superiority gallantly but after two weeks they ran ouf of planes and supplies. Pilots had to fight in ground units and then they evacuated to France and the UK.

Who is going to supply new Raptors to Poland after our planes are shot down or seriously damaged during the campaign of 2029? It would be better to have more F-16s so that they could last longer and then providing new ones would be easier coz it is a popular plane in the world. E.g, the USA has over 900. South Korea has 150 F-16. How about a little emergency trade?
Torq 28 | 2,759
6 Feb 2020 #11
Who is going to supply new Raptors to Poland after our planes are shot down or seriously damaged during the campaign of 2029?

The whole point is, there won't be any 2029 campaign. The cost of defeating Polish armed forces (including taking the huge damage that stealth Raptors are able to cause, deep behind enemy lines - think nuclear power plants, for example), occupying and controlling our territory will be so huge, that it will make any invasion of Poland completely and utterly inviable.
OP pawian 168 | 11,113
6 Feb 2020 #12
stealth Raptors are able to cause, deep behind enemy lines - think nuclear power plants,

Russians are proud of their excellent ground to air missile systems, of all kinds of ranges. Before Raptors do some real damage, they will be long gone. We would need hundreds of them to break through Russian defences. What can you do with 32 planes?
Miloslaw 6 | 2,901
6 Feb 2020 #13
occupying and controlling our territory will be so huge, that it will make any invasion of Poland completely and utterly inviable

Agreedl completely.

What can you do with 32 planes?

Nato can deal with it. The RAF have ordered over a hundred.of these planes and the USAF has hundreds of them.
Russia can not respond and survive.
Serbs please take note..... you will be on the losing side....
Torq 28 | 2,759
6 Feb 2020 #14
Russians are proud of their excellent ground to air missile systems

Russians are also proud of the 1970s UAZ vehicles (still produced to this day).

What can you do with 32 planes?

Even if only half of them breaks through, that's 16 nuclear power plants gone - some nice fireworks too. As I said, a totally unprofitable business for Russia.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,834
6 Feb 2020 #15
from Polish point of view it's always better to have modern weapons systems than not to have them.

You are getting closer to where we, the gun freaks, are. I would rather have that Beretta than not to make the cost of breaking into my house prohibitively expensive.

Even if only half of them breaks through, that's 16 nuclear power plants gone

Somehow, it reminds me of Napoleon and Hitler way of thinking. Remember, the US lost in Vietnam in spite of its superior hardware. The US is not going to risk its existence for Poland. Now, if you guys decide to attack Latvia, well, maybe...

NATO is Brussels with guns. A stale body with arthritis.
Miloslaw 6 | 2,901
6 Feb 2020 #16
@Torq

Yes, Russia has very little to be proud about.
Their country is diminishing whilst Poland grows.
At this rate, in a few years time, Russia will be more frightened of Poland than the other way round....
Serbs please take note.... Warsaw, not Moscow.....
Weimarer 9 | 592
6 Feb 2020 #17
Overprized bad aircraft, too slow, just one engine, thousands of flaws.
Torq 28 | 2,759
6 Feb 2020 #18
I would rather have that Beretta than not to make the cost of breaking into my house prohibitively expensive.

Exactly! :)

The US is not going to risk its existence for Poland.

Nobody expects you to. Just sell us those Raptors, Patriots, perhaps some Abrams tanks as well, and we'll be fine.

Serbs please take note.... Warsaw, not Moscow.....

Do you hear that, Crow?
OP pawian 168 | 11,113
6 Feb 2020 #19
Even if only half of them breaks through, that's 16 nuclear power plants gone - some nice fireworks too.

Not really. Before they arrive at the controvercial decision to take out nuclear plants, Raptors will be gone.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,905
6 Feb 2020 #20
but to make any invasion of Poland inviable

I would argue that if you're Russia today, there's not much to gain from occupying Poland as a whole. It would be better to invade Lithuania around Marjiampole, create a land corridor and heavily reinforce it against Poland.

Poland would have a difficult question then - do they attack Russian forces to try and keep the land corridor open, or do they look for a settlement? I don't believe NATO intervenes if the Russian intention is to create a corridor along the sparsely populated border of PL-LT, as it would be incredibly difficult to sell a war with Russia over that.

From a Polish point of view, it would also be a very hard sell domestically, especially if the corridor doesn't infringe on Polish territory and if local Poles aren't bothered by the occupying forces.

However, I'd also argue that Russia is playing the long game, and their interests are just as well served by useful idiots like PiS and Konfederacja.
OP pawian 168 | 11,113
6 Feb 2020 #21
Overprized bad aircraft, too slow, just one engine, thousands of flaws.

One costs over 100 m $. Not bad.
Crow 138 | 8,063
7 Feb 2020 #22
Modern F-35 bought by Poland. Good decision?

This is very good move right at this moment, politically and in sense of security. President Trump would like it and, as we all see, Germany is near to crumble, following inevitable destine of its Deutsche Bank. Not to speak of others experiments on Germans. And then we all know what happens when Germany become unstable- Poland was always first to feel.

Russian airspace

Absolutely wrong approach. Russia is no reason for buying this contingent of F-35.

Torq@, don`t you see dobri brate that Poland obviously / OBVIOUSLY / coordinate with Russia on crucial questions of security. If Poland have deal with Serbia and Russia that we can use Polish and Visegrad`s air space in order to bring most powerful Russian armament in Serbia, then, at least unofficially, Poland and Russia don`t have problems. So, Visegrad and Russia have similar/same stance on situation on Balkans. Are you aware of strategic importance of the region, Torq brate? And see, Poland and Russia coordinate. Add to it moves of noble brat Corey Lewandowski that is representative of both- trusting man of venerable US President Trump and of Polonia. You know that brat Lewandowski have even his private company that delivering money to Bosnian Serbs? Financing their survival and straightening in hostile environment. You know that Torq?

After all, as much as USA and Russia collide, they do coordinate. We all know that President Trump criticized previous politics on Serbs. Its then clear that Trump looking favorable on Polish-Russian cooperation on Balkans. We also know that Trump thing bad about EU and Germany.

Let me clarify to you, dobri brate Torq. Its all because there are bigger problems. Germany and western Europe are problem, as we also all know. Even our brother in Christ, Pope Francis, blessed him for his sincere attempt to love us all, point at EU as a problem and seek to have good relations with Russia.

So, plemeniti Pan brat Duda, carefully follow policy of most powerful centers of the world and guide Poland well. So yes, good, very good move to buy F-35. Against Germany, that has conventional weapons, it may prove very useful.

Serbs please take note..... you will be on the losing side....

Not a chance. We are kind a hope to Poland.
Torq 28 | 2,759
7 Feb 2020 #23
Poland obviously / OBVIOUSLY / coordinate with Russia on crucial questions of security

... I withdraw from this thread.
Crow 138 | 8,063
7 Feb 2020 #24
Please stay.
Weimarer 9 | 592
7 Feb 2020 #25
@pawian

It has only one engine. Its acceleration is slow. It depends on a helmet which is manufactured for each pilot and costs 680.000 €. Just the helmet. It needs climatized hangar. Breaks down under normal comditions and its stealth feature was hacked by a new german radar system.

Well Poland is known to buy overprized american trash alot.

How did it work for LOT to be Boeing only? Ha ha ha ha
OP pawian 168 | 11,113
7 Feb 2020 #26
its stealth feature was hacked by a new german radar system.

This and other is quite interesting news. I didn`t know you are such an expert. Good.

How did it work for LOT to be Boeing only

And you are slowly becoming an expert on Poland. Good. :)
Spike31 2 | 1,245
7 Feb 2020 #27
Experts claim

What experts? I read Defence24.pl military think tank portal regularly and their opinion is quite on a contrary.

such expensive planes

Aircraifts not planes. Planes are civilian machines
aflyingdutchman 1 | 7
7 Feb 2020 #28
From my perspective, I do not know whether its a good thing or not as I have no military background, and can not judge the qualities of these aircraft. I would say, however, the reason they have been bought probably has more to do with keeping the lunatic racist PiS governement in the good books of their best friend, the Orange Lunatic currently occupying the White House.
OP pawian 168 | 11,113
7 Feb 2020 #29
Aircraifts not planes. Planes are civilian machines

Hmm, non-experts prefer planes. Read what a broad sheet American paper wrote:
This plane is designed for total mission success, with the most survivable yet lethal ...
Crow 138 | 8,063
7 Feb 2020 #30
It has only one engine.

One? I`m no military expert, even less in aircraft, so I can`t judge but, I heard once on TV that pilots in general much more prefer two engine machines. Like, just in case.


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