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Modern F-35 bought by Poland. Good decision?


Weimarer 10 | 620
12 Feb 2020 #181
@AntV

Yes, its the favored aircraft right now.

We develop our own 5th gen jet. The purchase now is to replacs our old tornados. Its an intermediate solution until our own jet is ready
AntV 2 | 192
12 Feb 2020 #182
It's going to be interesting to see what develops in Germany, and the EU for that matter, over the next 10-15 years. There's some very strong headwinds that'll need to be navigated. Let's hope none of these warplanes need to be used.
Spike31 3 | 1,638
12 Feb 2020 #183
@AntV

Since Britain and Italy are switching from EF to F-35 and Poland, Belgium, Denmark, Netherlands and Norway have also picked F-35 I don't think there's any room left for a major EU fighter. And outside of Europe Australia, South Korea, Japan and the US have also bought them.

Sweden has its Grippens which they've also sold to Hungary and Czech rep.

Which leaves us with Spain, France and Germany to start a new multi-billion project. Yet the new jet fighter is projected to be operational by the year...2040.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,752
13 Feb 2020 #184
2080 would make little difference. By that time, the Arab Emirates of Europe will not need them.
Weimarer 10 | 620
13 Feb 2020 #185
@Rich Mazur
Maybe when the arab emirates of europe have to defend against greater hispania of north america.

Dude i saw how ****** up USA is.

Please stick to the topic of the thread
Miloslaw 7 | 3,264
13 Feb 2020 #186
until our own jet is ready

They will never be ready.
You live in some sort of teutonic wonderland.
But the brutal truth is that Germany is losing it..... militarily it has already gone, culturaly it is dying, and its economic power base, which is industrialy based is being overun by the far east.

Germany is old school, not moved with the times and will suffer.
And in consequence,so will the surviving members of the EU.
Weimarer 10 | 620
14 Feb 2020 #187
@Miloslaw
1. Military is useless in thsi era and place. If you ask me we could dissolve it completly and go nuclear for defense.

2. Culturally dieing? If we are culturally dieing, then France, UK, USA and Poland are already cultural dead.

3. Economy? Is doing ok. Evry year new export record.

Your problem is that we dont buy the F 35 trash, we want replace over 85 aircrafts, which is biggest defense deal globally right now. We dismissed F 35 as trash, thats our god given right.

We wont buy an aircraft that is slow and has only one engine. Its as easy as that.
Weimarer 10 | 620
14 Feb 2020 #188
News

This crap aircrafts Cannon cant shoot straight....but also damages itself

nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/f-35-can%E2%80%99t-fire-its-cannon-without-committing-suicide-122541

What is more interesting though is, that Poland pays 124 Million per each aircraft, while Lockheed Martin offers it for 80 million to Germany.

That says alot about American polish relations 😆
johnny reb 23 | 4,520
14 Feb 2020 #189
Poland is getting brand new shiny ones and Germany was offered the old worn out used crap ones.
Says a lot about American german relations.
Vlad1234 16 | 645
14 Feb 2020 #190
greater hispania of north america

It sounds pretentious. Maybe you meant a greater Guatemala or greater Colombia?
Tacitus 2 | 1,136
14 Feb 2020 #191
@Miloslaw

I think you are confusing Germany with the the UK here.
Velund 1 | 399
14 Feb 2020 #192
(including taking the huge damage that stealth Raptors are able to cause

... in your wet dreams and in a manufacturer advertising booklets. Maybe F-35 is little bit "stealth" to 1960's style soviet X-band radars that is used by African countries, but you have to be very lucky to sneak into russian airspace hoping to be invisible to all overlapping systems of different bands.

Can you tell me, why there was panic once Turkey tried to have S-400 and F-35 in the same hands?
cms neuf - | 1,589
14 Feb 2020 #193
Yes especially when Putin himself is flying those fighter jets LOL

We all know the reality - some clunky 80s Sukhoi serviced by slouching drunk mechanics and flown by guys nervously checking if the battery in their Sturmanskie is still working
Velund 1 | 399
14 Feb 2020 #194
We all know the reality - some clunky 80s Sukhoi

Then why Polish politicians need such large loads of fresh diapers once they hear the word "Russia"?

Russophrenia - "a condition where the sufferer believes Russia is both about to collapse, and take over the world."
Velund 1 | 399
15 Feb 2020 #195
Let's name things by their own names. Trump said that it's time to "fari vagnari u pizzu", if you sell russophobia to the world, you have to pay their share to the masters who made this item sellable to a third parties and who offer their advertising support. United States have problems, and funding of Poland from EU is also coming to the end, so now it is time to pay something to "big boys", supporting their economy and taking away some of monetary losses, linked to F-35 program. Later it will be harder to find money to pay.
Ironside 49 | 10,312
15 Feb 2020 #196
such large loads of fresh diapers once they hear the word "Russia"?

You mean Putin? He seemed to get very excited and in dire need of diaper's while spewing an utter tripe as he often does. Having hysterical meltdown over imaginary Polish transgressions.

Russophrenia - "a

Nah, it is a Russian illness, a condition only Russian suffer, the sufferer believes Poland both not even a country, and poising a mortal threat to Russia.
OP pawian 170 | 11,353
15 Feb 2020 #197
d in dire need of diaper's while spewing an utter tripe as he often does.

Wow, does this cirticism mean you are no longer on the Kremlin`s payroll??? Did they kick you out from the factory seeing you have been doing a lousy job or you gave up on your own? Or is it a sort of pressure you want to exert on them to increase your per-post wages? hahaha
Ironside 49 | 10,312
15 Feb 2020 #198
Did they kick you out

If you must know I'm in charge now. So keep up your work if you want t o get enough dough for your next fix.

Poland both not even a country, and poising a mortal threat to Russia.

Should be - Poland is both - not a real country and posing a mortal threat to /Russia.
Weimarer 10 | 620
15 Feb 2020 #199
@johnny reb
Nope, USA even offered Germany to be part of the production and tech exchange. Even then Germany declined.

Thats the thing. USA wamted to sell us this crap aircraft for lower price plus participate us in the project.

Poland gets the junk for higher price and without participation. Thats the difference about the 2nd largest western economy and a weak post communist small eastern european country.
Velund 1 | 399
15 Feb 2020 #200
Poland ... poising a mortal threat to Russia.

Who said you that BS? Poland by itself does not pose any threat, because even while completely brainwashed, Poles still care about yourself, their children, and the land they plan to continue to live in future (just like Russians). Threat is NATO bases that is de-facto controlled from large distance by someone who does not care at all about both polish people and the land.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
15 Feb 2020 #201
Thats the difference about the 2nd largest western economy and a weak post communist small eastern european country.

He's right.
Weimarer 10 | 620
15 Feb 2020 #202
@delphiandomine

Yes and its funny.

So Germany seeks roughly 80 fighter jets. USA offers F-35 for 80 million a piece. Offers technological exchange and construction in Germany.

Poland on other aide has to pay 125 million for each jet....45 million more. Doesnt get any tech exchange and no construction.

Poland is treated like that fat kid at school that desperatly wants to be accepted.

Pro tip, dont act like a boot licker.
Spike31 3 | 1,638
15 Feb 2020 #203
If Poland was a "weak post communist small eastern european country" (well, actually the size of Poland is equal to Germany and we're both placed well within Central Europe) you wouldn't have to repeat this mantra like a broken record all the time because it would be self evident :-) Who are you trying to convince: the others or just youself?

The fact is that Germany is uncomfortable with growing econo-political position of Poland and with the political innitiatives Poland is part of/creator in Central Europe. And also because Poland is reaching beyond Europe, especially to the US.

Germany's political influence, due to various reasons, has decreased greatly in recent years, and especially after 2015 "refugee" crisis...
Weimarer 10 | 620
15 Feb 2020 #204
@Spike31
Poland has a smaller economy than Baden - Württemberg. Its weaker than a single german state.

German influence is great enough that it gets offered that garbage jet 45 million cheaper per unit plus tech exchange.

That said its boot licking of USA is indeed going over the top and angers Germany as well as France. I dont think an American 5th column will work well for much longer.

Maybe if Poland gets too annoying, it might get a new smolensk moment? Who knows
Ironside 49 | 10,312
15 Feb 2020 #205
If Poland was a "weak post communist small eastern european country"

Apart from this small part it is true. Small is a question of perspective.

The fact is that Germany is uncomfortable

Today's position of Germany is partly due to Poland and other eastern European countries of the region. They would like to keep Poland where it is, Thing is that would trap Poland in so called the middle-income trap for ever./
Tacitus 2 | 1,136
15 Feb 2020 #206
in recent years, and especially after 2015 "refugee" crisis...

If we are being objective here, the country who has lost political influence since 2015 is Poland due to PiS isolating the country. Poland is de facto excluded from any initiatives in Bruessels. Compare that to back under PO when Poland was a partner of France and Germany and helped formulating the EU's Eastern European strategy. Poland is now in a precarious siguation. It has alienated Germany and France, the UK is with Brexit about to lose most of its' European cloud and the USA are increasingly more isolationistic. PiS has so far not provided an answer how to get Poland out of that predicament.
Ironside 49 | 10,312
15 Feb 2020 #207
he country who has lost political influence since 2015 is Poland due to PiS

That magical thinking again. What influence? Ability to bargain for scraps behind the curtain. In all important matters Poland had no say.
Velund 1 | 399
15 Feb 2020 #208
Maybe if Poland gets too annoying, it might get a new smolensk moment? Who knows

Smolensk moment was due to internal stupidity, not due to outside annoyance.

But stupidity can be very annoying as well, and cause much more problems that sudden career growth for a large number of politicians....
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
15 Feb 2020 #209
The fact is that Germany is uncomfortable with growing econo-political position of Poland

That sounds like something straight out of TVP. It's laughable, because Germany couldn't care less - if Poland gets richer, they'll buy more German products. And anyway, the Polish economy is so heavily dependent on Germany, beyond looting people's pockets through state-controlled monopolies.

and with the political innitiatives Poland is part of/creator in Central Europe

You mean the initiatives that were met with apathy by everyone except Hungary, and even then, they instantly went off and did some dodgy deals with Putin instead?

I remember distinctly how the Slovaks turned round and said that they wanted nothing to do with PiS antagonising Brussels, and the Czechs have made it crystal clear in the last few months that they regard the V4 as being additional to and not a replacement for the EU.

Poland has lost a tremendous amount of influence. It's very apparent that people how people like Babis go on visits to places like Estonia, but they don't bother coming to Poland.
Tacitus 2 | 1,136
15 Feb 2020 #210
Which is not true. Poland played an important part in the EU's Eastern policy and was among those who pushed for closer association the Ukraine. Poland was close to catch up to the Western European powers in terms of influence and form a decision-making trio with France and Germany.

Just a pity to watch it all being sqaundered by PiS.

with growing econo-political position of Poland

That is just laughable. Few things have been more desired in Germany than for Poland to become wealthy and thus buy more of our products.


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