The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / History  % width posts: 188

What is Poles opinion on Intermarium (Międzymorze)?


Ziemowit 13 | 3,915
22 May 2020 #151
can't be worse than Berliners

my way to Italy

In my experience Berliners are more friendly than Italians.
-------
This Intermarium idea is definitely a blurred one. It certainly does not belong to Realpolitik. On the historical front we have a similar concept, the dream of the "Great Lechia" empire in pre-mediaeval times which was big and powerful. Both are fantasy; the former is a political fantasy, the latter is a historical one. Both seem to serve as some sort of cure for the haggard Polish soul.
Torq 32 | 2,999
22 May 2020 #152
chernozem

We don't need Ukrainian "chernozem". Our farming could feed 120 million people if necessary.

So Poland lost lands with good soils

...also lands with poorly developed road net and industry, widespread poverty, and hostile minorities.

and got poor soils from Germany

...poor soils and Breslau, Danzig, Stettin (not to mention Oppeln, Koslin, Stolp, Grünberg, Landsberg and a dozen other larger cities/towns), entire Upper and Lower Silesia, 440 km of Baltic coastline - worth much more than "chernozem".

Sure, losing Lwów and Wilno was painful, but Poland became ethnically coherent and moved a couple a hundred kilometres west.

In my experience Berliners are more friendly than Italians.

Believe it or not but I've only been to Berlin once, and was too young back then to remember anything.
Lenka 3 | 1,835
22 May 2020 #153
In my experience Berliners are more friendly than Italians

Super nice ppl. After Poland Berlin is my favourite place
Ziemowit 13 | 3,915
22 May 2020 #154
I've only been to Berlin once

I've been once in the times of the DDR and I still remember its DDR charm. In particular I still have vivid recollections of my trips on the tram from its center down to a Jugendherberge somewhere in its south-eastern outskirts. There was something fabulous and totally unreal in moving downtown inside a very old tram wagon along the cobbled streets.

When I came back to the city two years ago, I was looking in vain for the Palast der Republik which building I also kept in mind. But it was nowhere in Berlin. Neither I could find it on the plan of the Stadt. Where has it gone?

Since it was my first journey abroad on my own ever, I still cherish a special affection for Berlin and its townsmen. It will be good to have the city in the Intermarium.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527
22 May 2020 #155
Where has it gone?

It was found out that the old Palace of the Republic had been build with asbestos, so it was first closed and later demolished.

In it's place has been rebuild the prussian Berlin Palace of old....kind of....



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_of_the_Republic,_Berlin

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Palace#Reconstruction

It will be good to have the city in the Intermarium.

Make it the capital! :)
delphiandomine 84 | 18,135
22 May 2020 #156
It was found out that the old Palace of the Republic had been build with asbestos, so it was first closed and later demolished.

As I remember, this was largely a myth. The asbestos had been removed by the early 2000's, and the building could have been reused. It should have been used for the people, in line with the original idea (as I recall, it wasn't just home to the DDR Volkskammer, but also for many other things). I understand why some people might have hated it, but the idea of a building for the people was no bad thing. And I liked it architecturally too. I only saw it once, just before they started to demolish it, and I miss it as a tourist.

In it's place has been rebuild the prussian Berlin Palace

It's AWFUL.

I seriously can't stand it. I passed by it in December and scowled at just how dreadful it is. It's fake, it doesn't suit the area, it wrecks the view from the Lustgarten, and and... I just hate it.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527
22 May 2020 #157
It's AWFUL.

It's NICE!!!

...and the ultimate finger to the german communists who had destroyed the real thing and build their palace in it's place. Now who has the last laugh, HA! :)

but the idea of a building for the people was no bad thing.

Yeah...in as much as socialism generally is "for the people", right? Riiiiiiight! That's why they had to shoot people who wanted to leave that republic with it's palace....

Btw. it's for you too:

"...A palace is being rebuilt in the heart of the city, not as a seat for kings and kaisers - but as a museum for the whole world and all the diversity of its cultures..."

visitberlin.de/en/humboldt-forum-berlin-city-palace
delphiandomine 84 | 18,135
22 May 2020 #158
It's NICE!!!

NO! But it's your city, not mine :) But I really hate it, it's the second most stupid thing ever in Berlin.

Yeah...in as much as socialism generally is "for the people", right?

But that's what I mean - it should have been made into a genuine Palace of the Republic for the people. So much could have been done with that space instead of just making some hugely expensive rebuilt palace to act as a museum.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527
22 May 2020 #159
NO! But it's your city, not mine :)

And as a honorary Prussian I'm so totally biased! :)

for the people.

Honestly.....anything with "...for the people" innit leaves a bad aftertaste now after two brutal dictatorships! They kinda burned it for the naming...

But I really hate it, it's the second most stupid thing ever in Berlin

Okay...now I have to ask...what's the number one?
delphiandomine 84 | 18,135
22 May 2020 #160
Honestly.....anything with "...for the people" innit leaves a bad aftertaste now after two brutal dictatorships!

...yeah, you have a good point ;) Then it should have been "for the middle classes of Prenzlauer Berg"!

Okay...now I have to ask...what's the number one?

Closing Tegel :(
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527
22 May 2020 #161
....I will believe in Schönefeld when they really open it...not before!

Buuuut...to stay on topic...as the capital of the mighty Intermarium Berlin would need Tegel AND Schönefeld....and maybe Tempelhof again too...
delphiandomine 84 | 18,135
22 May 2020 #162
Tegel for business, Schönefeld for leisure and Tempelhof for small aircraft so that they don't block either of the big airports?

Makes sense to me!
jon357 63 | 15,061
22 May 2020 #163
Tegel

One of the strangest airports I know. The sooner the new one opens the better!
mafketis 23 | 8,136
22 May 2020 #164
I'm pretty sure if it hasn't opened yet..... no, it's never gonna open... (let it remain unfinished as a reminder to Germans that yes, they can screw things up too and maybe should be a little less judgemental...)

I like Tegel and have mostly positive memories of flying there to take the train to Poland (easier at the time than flying to Poland direct)

I even like it despite one horrible experience (had to stay overnight in early summer and they shuffled us all to a small waiting room that was too hot and too crowded and too uncomfortable)....
delphiandomine 84 | 18,135
22 May 2020 #165
One of the strangest airports I know.

I do like the ease of it though - get dropped off next to the terminal, walk to the gate, pass through passport control/security and you're immediately at the gate. No lengthy walks through duty free or other gubbins, and you can easily do it all within an hour of the flight.

It will be valued by future business travellers to Intermarium!
Tacitus 2 | 1,117
22 May 2020 #166
As I remember, this was largely a myth.

They had to de facto scrap out the entire building right down to its' core. It would have been possible to preserve it afterwards, but it would have been very expensive and why go to so much trouble for a building that a) has a very problematic history and b) looks just god awful. It might be good enough for a shopping mall, but not for the city centre of a capital.

Please stick to the topic
Zlatko
23 May 2020 #167
Northern Italians are some of the rudest Europeans in my experience along with French people but South Italians are quite nice. Hungarians are much friendlier than them and Poles have friendly and not so people.

Anyway my luckiest places in Europe are from Lecce to Osijek to Budapest/Gyor, Žilina, Katowice, Gdansk, up to Stockholm and other Swedish cities.
Ironside 49 | 10,174
23 May 2020 #168
Northern Italians

Dude stop that chit chat here. Please stick to the topic.
Vlad1234 16 | 604
23 May 2020 #169
It seems Poles need to take parts of Ukraine back

If they will drive Ukrainians out of these lands, who will settle in? Just a few colonists from Poland? Poland experience demographic crisis and allows millions of Ukrainians come in Poland to do dirty job. Not to many Poles will want to go somewhere to do the farming.
Ironside 49 | 10,174
23 May 2020 #170
If they will drive Ukrainians out of these lands, who will settle in?

Is that your problem? Stop worrying about things that doesn't concern you.

millions of Ukrainians

Most of them are they real Ukrainians not those f renegades.
Vlad1234 16 | 604
23 May 2020 #171
Think about the future! The future is green tech...

And meanwhile a new coal power plants are open in Germany!
bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-13/germany-s-farewell-to-coal-complicated-by-new-uniper-plant
Spike31 3 | 1,504
24 May 2020 #172
Germany is still the biggest coal consumer in the whole EU. And yet, thanks to crafty propaganda there's a notion that Poland occupies the 1st place.

worldometers.info/coal/germany-coal/

In the EU there are two sets or rules: one for herrenvolk and another one which applies to the rest. Thanks to this simple trick Germany can hamper the economies of other EU members with regulations and exclude themselves from the most damaging restrictions at the same time.

independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/angela-merkel-germany-breaks-more-eu-rules-worst-bottom-class-a8198271.html
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527
24 May 2020 #173
In the EU there are two sets or rules: one for herrenvolk

Ooops Spikey, you are slipping....and here I started to believe you as you said that you wanted to discuss seriously...

The "Energiewende" is an extremely ambitious project, something most other countries don't even try to achieve. Poland should join it, then it will have something to be proud of, to show off and to sell of in a few years.

But you have no real visions of your own, don't you? Just some power games....
Spike31 3 | 1,504
24 May 2020 #174
@BratwurstBoy, I forgot how sensitive you are about that subject but there's no easy way to understand the present times without referring to complicated past.

Poland has many things to be proud of and damaging the energy sector with green utopia is not a smart move for us.

All the effort and the money should go to infrastructural projects which will pay a huge divident in the future: highways, expressways and pipelines connecting Poland and Polish ports with CEE and Balkans, new mega airport on the outskirts of Warsaw, modernizing waterways, investing in arms industry. Those are the things which will bring significant value, and a high level of independence, for the economy.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527
24 May 2020 #175
...there's no easy way to understand the present times without referring to complicated past.

Most others here manage quite well....how do they do that?

...and damaging the energy sector with green utopia is not a smart move for us.

The horse riders of old surely thought the same as the new born automobiles stuttered and struggled over the then still non-existing streets....

But as I said, then don't complain if Poland will also in the future stay only the supplier to the future german green-tech-industry! It's not our fault if you refuse to put yourself on top of the technological chain, you only get there with visions and taking risk! (The mocking from the horse-riders on the sidelines for any failures included)
Torq 32 | 2,999
24 May 2020 #176
And yet, thanks to crafty propaganda there's a notion that Poland occupies the 1st place.

Yes, but this sort of things are easily noticed and can be pointed out and countered. If I had to point to the biggest problem in Polish-German relations it would be on the level of ordinary people, not the governments, and here the problem lies with Poland's image in German popular culture, and how she is portrayed by media/enterteinment industry (and vice-versa, of course). I watched a film on Das Erste yesterday, and was a bit annoyed with one scene it it, and how the stereotypes are still kept alive by thoughtless mass culture makers. Of course, you cannot censor independent film makers, but sometimes they should think twice before shooting a scene.

I mean, so many years of student exchanges, trans-border cooperation, cross-cultural projects, friendly (yes, I know, Iron *rolls eyes*) gestures from politicians and bishops on both sides, and yet it all gets ruined by public (Das Erste, I believe is a state-owned channel) television.

Politicians will only do what their voters allow them to do, and if their voters are still thinking with idiotic stereotypes... oh, well...
Spike31 3 | 1,504
24 May 2020 #177
Most others manage quite well....

Who manage quite well? Greece, Italy, Spain? And the sole beneficiary of the eurocurrency are Germany and Netherlands.

When the system is build in a way to benefit one side and to screw the others no amount of 'luck' and hard work will help when the game is rigged. And the next step after such realization is to change it/replace it or at the very least release ourselves from its grip. And that's what the UK done recently.

Poland manages quite well thanks to various factors: no eurocurrency, challenging the most damaging EU rules, high work ethics and incredible entrepreneurship and resilience of the Poles. Half of that potential is wasted on fighting with bureaucratic difficulties and regulations instead of growing and expanding businesses and industrial capabilities.

Without the EU regulations and with truly open and unrestricted euromarket Poland would grow twice as fast.

you only get there with visions and taking risk!

Yes, and that's why I'm against the future EU membership of Poland in this clerotic socialists club obsessed with regulations. The cons of membership outweight the benefits. And the great vision for Poland is to tap on an undeveloped potential of Central and Eastern Europe and the Balkans.
Spike31 3 | 1,504
24 May 2020 #178
If I had to point to the biggest problem in Polish-German relations it would be on the level of ordinary people,

This as well but I would place economic our politico-economic relations on the 1st place. For me the biggest issue and greatest challenge lies in effectively breaking the geopolitical concept of mitteleuropa and putting it in historical archives where it belongs for good.

I'm not against the most of the ordinary Germans. Sure, our mentalities and sets of values are different and our nations will probably never be best friends but we can coexist one the right econo-political balance will be introduced between our countries and nations.

On a personal level I do know a few Germans and have a few German colleagues, one of them is even my friend.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527
24 May 2020 #179
I always wonder where you take that from.....Poles and Germans are probably the most mixed peoples in Europe!

How can you differentiate between them so clearly when over the centuries millions of Poles and Germans have mixed....so many Poles and people of polish heritage have influenced Germany

These masses of people have assimilated and integrated so flawlessly...culturally and socially...they can't be that different...where and HOW do you draw the line? And one so clear at that?

Serious question here...

Yes, and that's why I'm against the future EU membership of Poland in this clerotic socialists club

Right now it's rather you who is harking back on a long gone past...past hostilities...past glory...past energy resources! Old and sclerotic....set in old ways...unable to dream of a better future.

Against you Germany and the EU look pubescend actually! They at least have dreams and visions....
Spike31 3 | 1,504
24 May 2020 #180
I always wonder where you take that from.....

I'm talking about cultural background, religion, worldview and dominant set of values not genetics. There are many Poles with German heritage who are as good as any other Poles.

One of the prominent members of Konfederacjia is a Pole with German heritage Sławomir Mentzen, yet he stand firmly behind Polish national interest. Sure, blood relations matters but it is more of a German obsession to reduce everything to the issue of race.

past glory

I rather look up to the future glory of Poland which is within our grasp.

Home / History / What is Poles opinion on Intermarium (Międzymorze)?
Discussion is closed.