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What do Poles owe to Germans?


pawian 151 | 7,988    
10 Sep 2011  #1
Sheit, I made a thread about Russian contribution and forgot to do the same with German one.

After all, they are our most important neighbours and require even treatment.

The first thing that comes to my mind: last Sunday we went to Krakow`s Old Town for a mass service. We went to St Barbara`s Church, next to St. Mary`s Cathedral which hosts a unique wooden Gothic altar by Vit Stoss, a German artist who worked in Krakow for a dozen or more years in 15 century:

d

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veit_Stoss

The altar at in Kraków was not completed until 1489, and was the largest triptych of its time and, like his other large works, required a large workshop including specialized painters and gilders.[3] Other important works from his period in Poland were the tomb of Casimir IV in Wawel Cathedral, the marble tomb of Zbigniew Oleśnicki in Gniezno, and the altar of Saint Stanislaus. The Polish court was more aware of Italian styles than Nuremberg patrons of that time, and some of his Polish work uses Renaissance classical ornament.[4]

See the panorama of the altar with minutest details: mariacki.com/foto/galeria-oltarz-panorama/index.html
Sokrates 8 | 3,348    
11 Sep 2011  #2
I daresay Poles do not owe Germans anything and the altar was very well paid for (Stoss got more money than he could ever hoped for in Germany).

Lets do a bit of a summary of what Germans did for Poles.

Genocide of Gdańsk, renaming it Danzing and claiming its a german city.
Destruction of Warsaw, the capital of Poland.
Partitions.
Murder of 5 milion polish citizens.
Murder of the better part of the polish elite.
Mass kindappings of polish children during WW2.
Destruction and theft of polish industry after WW1.
Melting down polish crown jewels.
Blowing up parts of Wawel, one of the holiest and most ancient royal sites.
Supression of polish language for 123 years after invading Poland during the partitions.
Torture, all executioners and torturers as well as methods of torture were brought from Germany in the medieval times.
Bankrupting Poland and attempted partitions by saxon monarchs.

And much much more.
sascha 1 | 830    
11 Sep 2011  #3
What do Poles owe to Germans?

i understand that this is a polish forum, but in the future we will much more see of these 'who owes whom what' kind of threads?

maybe there are some unspoken/unmentioned things, i for my part think that this is kinda boring.

i like poles. punkt. i liked/like to be there. ende.
Marynka11 4 | 675    
11 Sep 2011  #4
When I was studying the DAAD (German Academic Exchange) was very generous when it came to sending us abroad and organizing integrating programs. I owe a lot of great experiences to that institution (and to the German taxpayers).
legend 3 | 669    
11 Sep 2011  #5
To be fair the Germans do give Poland some EU money.

Think of it as reparations for WWII.
tovarisch - | 9    
11 Sep 2011  #6
"What do Poles owe to Germans?"

Hundreds of years of suppression and the worst genocide of the 20th century

I think Germany would like it if Poland decides not to pay back the "debt"
Palivec - | 380    
11 Sep 2011  #7
Think of it as reparations for WWII.

Better think of Eastern Prussia, Silesia and Pomerania as reparations for WW2.
OP pawian 151 | 7,988    
11 Sep 2011  #8
Oops, guys, all of you who posted here when I was soundly sleeping.

I must say I am NOT impressed with your contribution.

First of all, the thread is kinda historical.

That is why, can you abstain from mentioning such contemporary facts?:

To be fair the Germans do give Poland some EU money.

Secondly, the thread is supposed to present positive things. That is why such true facts as

Murder of 5 milion polish citizens.Murder of the better part of the polish elite.

are politically incorrect here. :):):)

BTW, Sok, since when have you started acknowledging Polish Jews? You stinking hypocrite!

Third, the thread is about Germans and Poland. Can you talk about England and other nations somewhere else? :):):)

But they owe England a lot.

Last, but not least, personal opinions which don`t have much historical value for the thread are also unnecessary. :):):)

i for my part think that this is kinda boring. i like poles. punkt. i liked/like to be there. ende.

I hope it is not too difficult to remember:

So, again:

Germans.

Positive.

History of Poland.

Do you think you are able to bear it in mind? I like working with intelligent people.

If you have nothing valuable to contribute, can you just read and learn from the thread?

Well, I hope you will come back to topic now.

Thanks in advance.

:):):):):):):)

Here is an example.

Coming back to Krakow again.

In one of his posts Palivec mentioned some Polish words which are derived from German: ratusz, burmistrz. etc etc. Town hall, mayor, etc.

Why?

Many Polish medieval towns adopted the so called Magdeburg Law for their settlement, development and ruling.

Magdeburg Rights (German: Magdeburger Recht) or Magdeburg Law were a set of German town laws regulating the degree of internal autonomy within cities and villages granted by a local ruler. Modelled and named after the laws of the German city of Magdeburg and developed during many centuries of the Holy Roman Empire, it was possibly the most important set of Germanic mediæval city laws.

Krakow is a perfect example:

Cities with German city rights often had similar layouts. Somewhat isolated was part of the city containing the residence and castle of the regional ruler, along with a cathedral. The city proper was centered around a market square which featured a church for wealthy merchants and artisans. Streets led out from the market in a planned grid system or concentric circles in which less wealthy citizens lived; riverfront sections of a city were designed with semicircles. The perimeter of the city was guarded by defensive walls, gates, and moats.

worldlibrary.org/articles/german_town_law

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_town_law

Together with German Town Law, German colonists/immigrants came and settled in Poland, welcomed by local rulers. Also, in Krakow.

Concurrent with the change in the structure of the Polish State and sovereignty was an economic and social impoverishment of the country. Harassed by civil strife and foreign invasions, like the Mongol invasion in 1241, the small principalities became enfeebled and depopulated. The incomes of the Princes began to decrease materially. This led them to take steps toward encouraging immigration from foreign countries. A great number of German peasants, who, during the interregnum following the death of Frederick II, suffered great oppression at the hands of their lords, were induced to settle in Poland under very favorable conditions.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostsiedlung#Poland
Crow 143 | 7,412    
11 Sep 2011  #9
What do Poles owe to Germans?

`sex` in political sense
retroDog    
11 Sep 2011  #10
positives?
ok catolic church and "baptism of nation" came from germany
wich also is a reason why Poles are using normal alphabet not cyrylica/bukwy
and German leader (Otto 3?) coronated first polish official prince, those makeing Poland an official state

and from recent history: polish thrash metal ows some to teutonic thrash
legend 3 | 669    
11 Sep 2011  #11
from one point of view I am happy Polish uses roman letters.
but from another view if it was cryllic then less people would infiltrate our language :D
Sokrates 8 | 3,348    
11 Sep 2011  #12
Secondly, the thread is supposed to present positive things. That is why such true facts as

The problem is that Germans did not give Poland anything, what they brought to Poland was y'know bought by Poles, with good money too so its hard to write about positives as from this point of view there were none.
RetroDog    
11 Sep 2011  #13
It's possible Poles owes them a few Mercedes cars ...
OP pawian 151 | 7,988    
11 Sep 2011  #14
The problem is that Germans did not give Poland anything.

Don`t be silly. And so obsessed with money. If not Vit Stwosz, the German, Poles would never have acquired such an altar, no matter how much they would pay to Czech or Italian sculpters. As simple as that, if not him in Poland, no masterpiece altar for Poles.
Seanus 15 | 19,716    
11 Sep 2011  #15
Hmm....experience of a different culture on their own doorstep was nice so appreciation for that. Linguistic awareness came from that. I'm thinking of Ozimek and the Opole region. Owe is not the right word, tho
Sokrates 8 | 3,348    
11 Sep 2011  #16
Don`t be silly. And so obsessed with money. If not Vit Stwosz, the German, Poles would never have acquired such an altar

Yes they would, they'd just hire an Italian to do it, Vit got lucky since it wa mostly italians who got commisions.

no matter how much they would pay to Czech or Italian sculpters. As simple as that, if not him in Poland, no masterpiece altar for Poles.

Italians had at the time a much better record of sculptures, i dont see a problem in hiring one to do a better work.

So no we dont "owe" the altar to the Germans.
OP pawian 151 | 7,988    
11 Sep 2011  #17
Despite popular beliefs, Poland didn`t owe its baptism and christianity to Germans. Quite the opposite, Mieszko I, the first ruler of Poland, adopted the christianity in 966 to protect his land from German expansion which used the pretext of conversion of pagan Slavic tribes.

So, when Germans created the diocese in Magdeburg in 968 with a view to take Slavic lands under its influence, it was too late as Mieszko, with his baptism, established the direct connection with Rome`s pope, not a German bishop.

Mieszko married Czech princess Dobrawa (already baptised) in 965 so we can say that Poles owe christianity to Czechs.

However, it can be true that the ceremony of baptism took place not in Gniezno (Poland) but somewhere in Germany (Ratyzbona) or even Rome.

sciaga.pl/tekst/29421-30-stosunki_polsko_niemieckie_w_okresie_wczesnopiastowskim

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_of_Poland
Sokrates 8 | 3,348    
11 Sep 2011  #18
However, it can be true that the ceremony of baptism took place not in Gniezno (Poland) but somewhere in Germany (Ratyzbona) or even Rome.

Unlikely, Mieszko could not leave his country for a longer period of time, Poland was still being formed.
OP pawian 151 | 7,988    
11 Sep 2011  #19
Rubbish. Check sources.

In early 966 Mieszko travelled to Czechia to visit his father in law, Czech ruler, prince Bolesław and prolong their alliance against pagan tribes that troubled Mieszko at the time. And that`s a fact.

And some historians believe that from there, they went together to Ratyzbona to have Mieszko baptised by the local bishop.
Sokrates 8 | 3,348    
11 Sep 2011  #20
Czechy aint Vatican also how long did he stay there?
Palivec - | 380    
11 Sep 2011  #21
Yes they would, they'd just hire an Italian to do it, Vit got lucky since it wa mostly italians who got commisions.

What Stoss made was a late Gothic altar. In Italy however Gothic wasn't en vogue anymore at that time. So Pawian is right. If not Vit Stwosz, the German, Poles would never have acquired *such an altar*.
Sokrates 8 | 3,348    
11 Sep 2011  #22
Sorry nope, if they got paid they would built it, what Stoss did while an art-work could have been done by someone else and if need be would have been done by someone else, he was just at hand.

Also as i pointed out he got paid very handsomely so its hardy a debt.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,292    
11 Sep 2011  #23
The very notion of Poles "owing" anything to Germans because a German carved an alterpiece and some Polish cities were organized around a "German" legal model is ridiculous. The sculptor was paid for his service and the Romans taught the Germans about civic organization.
Sokrates 8 | 3,348    
11 Sep 2011  #24
Amazing isnt it? And Germans are utterly convinced they brought civilisation to Poland (by destroying it?)
southern 76 | 7,103    
11 Sep 2011  #25
Poles owe to Germans the german cities like Wroclaw,Stettin etc which the Germans generously handed to them by gallancy.Also the castle of Marienburg where the Grand Master of teutonic horde a true friend of Poland resided.
Seanus 15 | 19,716    
11 Sep 2011  #26
Southern, is it Breslau or Wrocław now? Is it Stettin or Szczecin now?
southern 76 | 7,103    
11 Sep 2011  #27
In Germany they are still called Breslau,Krakau,Posen,Stettin in all signs.
Seanus 15 | 19,716    
11 Sep 2011  #28
And I'm sure all manner of other countries have their own names for those cities too. What's your point?
Sokrates 8 | 3,348    
11 Sep 2011  #29
That in their chauvinism Germans see all the afformentioned cities as theirs, often enough completely baselessly.

All it takes is for you to read our resident german BB, his posts basically amounted to "We brought you civilisation!!!11111111" and he was completely deaf when someone pointed to him that Poles built their own sophisticated culture and the only influence Germans had was attempting to destroy it for the past 1000 years.
RetroDog    
11 Sep 2011  #30
southern:
and red army has nothing to do with Germans generosity?

pawian:
my mistake about baptism, I forgot about it.

have their ever paid for destroying Warsaw ?


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