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What do Poles owe to Germans?


Sokrates 8 | 3,348    
11 Sep 2011  #31
have their ever paid for destroying Warsaw ?

No, german repatriations, those that were paid were only a token compared to the destruction they visited upon Poland, someone calculated the approximate cost of damage done in Warsaw, it equaled twenty years of German budget.
Palivec - | 380    
11 Sep 2011  #32
have their ever paid for destroying Warsaw ?

Warsaw was mostly rebuilt with bricks from former Stettin and Breslau. Both cities were partly destroyed for it. Moreover Poland received the property of 9 mio Germans.
Sokrates 8 | 3,348    
11 Sep 2011  #33
Both cities were almost completely destroyed and rebuilt by Poles, for polish money, the so called compensation Germany paid is a joke, its not even 1% of the materiel loss suffered by Poland and lets not forget the 5 milion people.
gumishu 11 | 4,902    
11 Sep 2011  #34
Moreover Poland received the property of 9 mio Germans.

it's not only bricks that make buildings - it's also hours and days of people's work - and how many people did it take to rebuild Warsaw - how much time it took

Millions of Poles also left behind their property in the East - they came to the 'recovered lands' and up to late 60's didn't know if they can really stay for good

include the ammount of war time requisition by German military administration - you had to give away most cattle and pigs (if not all)

how do you calculate the price of the lives lost - if husbands died and women were left behind with children and had to make it on their own
Sokrates 8 | 3,348    
11 Sep 2011  #35
it's not only bricks that make buildings - it's also hours and days of people's work - and how many people did it take to rebuild Warsaw - how much time it took

The administrative comittee numbered around 1500 people, the physical workers, more than 100.000 initially later 20.000, the bulk of rebuilding took 10 years but many structures were being rebuilt untill 60s, the cost and effort itself were mind boggling.

Warsaw alone suffered greater destruction and loss of life then all german cities during WW2 Dresden included.
OP pawian 143 | 7,217    
  11 Sep 2011  #36
Soki, please, relax. I see that the matter of the "Jewish debt" has gotten into your mind and you are blind with obsession of debts. :):):):)

Nobody talks here about being in debt to anyone.

I used the word owe in the meaning: to owe somebody thanks for

So, don`t behave like a stubborn child. Every intelligent person in Krakow knows that we owe thanks to Wit Stwosz, the great German artist, despite all the money that was paid to him.

The very notion of Poles "owing" anything to Germans because a German carved an alterpiece and some Polish cities were organized around a "German" legal model is ridiculous.

Guys, do you really have to behave and reason like simpletons? :)
Sokrates 8 | 3,348    
11 Sep 2011  #37
I used the word owe in the meaning: to owe somebody thanks for

Even in this meaning we don't owe anything.

Magdeburg layout we owe to the Romans.
The altar we owe to those who commissioned it.

So, don`t behave like a stubborn child. Every intelligent person in Krakow knows that we owe thanks to Wit Stwosz, the great German artist, despite all the money that was paid to him.

And not to people who comissioned it?
Palivec - | 380    
  11 Sep 2011  #38
how do you calculate the price of the lives lost - if husbands died and women were left behind with children and had to make it on their own

Exactly. How can you compensate someone for it? And how can you compensate a nation for lost national treasures? Poland received Silesian, Pomeranian or Prussian treasures instead (the university and museums of Warsaw are full of Silesian treasures for instance), but Poles will never feel the same emotional bond. On the contrary, it just creates new tensions... probably Stalins intention anyway.

But: saying Silesia, Pomerania and Prussia are a small compensation is a joke. Houses, land, infrastructure, natural resources, cultural assets... Silesia alone houses 1/4 of all listed objects in Poland. Lech Kaczyński once wanted to determine the exact amount, but quickly forgot the idea again.
sascha 1 | 831    
11 Sep 2011  #39
What do Poles owe to Germans?

folks i do hope u all enjoy this thread. for me it looks ridiculous.
Sokrates 8 | 3,348    
11 Sep 2011  #40
The title is ridiculous and Palivec is lying again, then again thats Pawians way of trolling, he wanted this thread to flame off.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,296    
  11 Sep 2011  #41
Pavilec, Poland should've received even more "treasures" from the Germans. Germany started the war and enslaved and murdered millions of Poles. Your harping on Silesian artifacts and the lack of Polish "emotional connection" to them is laughably petty. Do you have any self respect as a Czech, and if so how do you reconcile it with your apologetics for the legacy of the brutal German oppressors of your people, or are you just a craven Polonophobic Nazi jackboot licker?
OP pawian 143 | 7,217    
11 Sep 2011  #42
=RetroDog]pawian:
my mistake about baptism, I forgot about it.

I do appreciate it.

It is noble of you to admit a mistake which wasn`t so big, actually. If it is true, according to one historical presumption, that Mieszko was baptised in Regensburg instead of Polish towns of Poznań, Gniezno or Ostrów Legnicki, then, good Germans helped Poles to get baptised although bad Germans tried to prevent it. It was a fascinating game by Mieszko to play the former against the latter. I don`t have time to develop the topic, it was discussed in the Polish link I gave earlier.

Satisfied with your performance, I will answer the other part of your post (normally I try not to discuss anything with unregistered users because they are insincere tricksters.

=retroDog]and German leader (Otto 3?) coronated first polish official prince, those makeing Poland an official state

Nope. The first Polish king, Bolesław the Brave, was coronated in 1025, taking advantage of the political mess in Germany at the time. It was soon after Polish German war, so the relations were very antagonistic.

After Henry's death in 1024, Bolesław I took advantage of the interregnum in Germany and crowned himself king in 1025, thus raising Poland to the rank of a kingdom before its neighbor Bohemia. He was the first Polish king (rex), his predecessors having been considered dukes (dux) by the Holy Roman Empire and the papacy. Bolesław I died not long after the coronation, due most likely to an illness.

d

The German Polish cooperation between Otto I and Bolesław took place earlier, in 1000. I will talk about it.
Grzegorz_ 52 | 6,180    
  11 Sep 2011  #43
Cut the crap, you Gerries got better deal than you deserved after WW2, If not the cold war, you could still be divided into occupation zones today.

Poland received Silesian, Pomeranian or Prussian treasures instead

And there are still many items stolen in Poland in German hands.

saying Silesia, Pomerania and Prussia are a small compensation

Germany never compensated Poland with these lands... You had nothing to say in this case, Soviets took them away from Germany and "compensated" Poland for the lands annexed in the east, so It was a case between Soviet Union and Poland on one hand and Soviet Union and Germany on the other one, It had nothing to do with Polish-German relations.
OP pawian 143 | 7,217    
  11 Sep 2011  #44
=sascha]folks i do hope u all enjoy this thread. for me it looks ridiculous.

Despite my weakness towards Russians, I have to say one thing: you are ridiculous with your envy that a new thread has been started and it is not about Russians. :):):):):)

OK, don`t worry, I will try to develop What do Poles owe to Russians too.

=Sokrates]Magdeburg layout we owe to the Romans.

You historical Ignorant!!! Don`t mix Holy Roman Empire with ancient Romans!!!

Magdeburg Law was developed in Holy Roman Empire:

The Holy Roman Empire (HRE; German: Heiliges Römisches Reich (HRR), Latin: Imperium Romanum Sacrum (IRS), Italian: Sacro Romano Impero (SRI)) was a realm (Reich) that existed from 962–1806 in Central Europe. It was ruled by the Holy Roman Emperor. Its character changed during the Middle Ages and the Early Modern period, when the power of the emperor gradually weakened in favour of the princes. In its last centuries, its character became quite close to a union of territories.

The empire's territory was centered on the Kingdom of Germany, and included neighbouring territories, which at its peak included the Kingdom of Italy and the Kingdom of Burgundy. For much of its history, the Empire consisted of hundreds of smaller sub-units, principalities, duchies, counties, Free Imperial Cities and other domains.


Troll.

:):):):)
Des Essientes 7 | 1,296    
11 Sep 2011  #45
good Germans helped Poles to get baptised although bad Germans tried to prevent it.

Pawain you provide this superficial account of the German role in Poland's Christianization and you accuse other posters in this thread of being simpletons! Look in the mirror.
OP pawian 143 | 7,217    
  11 Sep 2011  #46
I do and definitely I look more handsome than you. Besides, intelligence beams from my eyes. Yours are void.

At least in this thread. In other threads you are quite all right. :):):):) So, wtf is happening to you?

As for superficial account:

Look, darling, this is not a thick illustrated book about history of Poland, it is a forum. I am not going to go into details because they will be lost on you anyway. If you need to know more, consult fekking archives and special bibliography. Learn to read and understand Polish.
Sokrates 8 | 3,348    
11 Sep 2011  #47
You historical Ignorant!!! Don`t mix Holy Roman Empire with ancient Romans!!!

And its based on ancient roman city layout, roman not holy roman empire.
OP pawian 143 | 7,217    
  11 Sep 2011  #48
Stop this historical self- suicide! :):):) Complete nonsense.

Troll.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,296    
  11 Sep 2011  #49
And its based on ancient roman city layout, roman not holy roman empire.

Sokrates is right about this you are wrong Pawain and it is you who are being the troll here by starting this ridiculous thread that is only meant to provoke. The Germans called their empire "Holy Roman" because they knew where they'd gotten their knowledge for civic building from: Rome, not some blasted mud-hut tribal German precedent.
Seanus 15 | 19,740    
11 Sep 2011  #50
Pawian, why is this perennially the Polish way to ask questions decades after they should have been resolved? You think modern Poles should feel indebtedness towards Germans?
Sokrates 8 | 3,348    
  11 Sep 2011  #51
Stop this historical self- suicide! :):):) Complete nonsense.

You're being the troll here mate and we both know it, i'm rising to the bait completely willingly and knowingly so whats the point?

The german city layout is an almost exact copy of the roman city as with many dark age/medieval achievements they're not german they're Roman and if you want to have a "who do we owe what" then its mostly Romans we and the rest of Europe owe much.

Pawian, why is this perennially the Polish way to ask questions decades after they should have been resolved? You think modern Poles should feel indebtedness towards Germans?

He just wanted a heated argument, he's a troll.
OP pawian 143 | 7,217    
  11 Sep 2011  #52
=Des Essientes]Sokrates is right about this you are wrong Pawain

I will be happy to see you prove it. If you do, I will apologise. If not, you will. :):):):)

=Des Essientes]it is you who are being the troll here by starting this ridiculous thread that is only meant to provoke.

It is you who is a troll. Do I make you participate here?

No.

So get out if you can`t discuss things on neutral terms. :):):):)
Sokrates 8 | 3,348    
11 Sep 2011  #53
So get out if you can`t discuss things on neutral terms. :):):):)

I'll be in Kraków soon, want to grab a drink? :))))
OP pawian 143 | 7,217    
  11 Sep 2011  #54
OK, guys, I see that I am losing too much time on disputes with such trolls as Sokrates and Des. :):):) It seems they are doing everything to destroy the thread and stop the truth from surfacing.

We mustn`t allow them to do it. Let`s prevent trolls like Sok or Des from taking over this thread. :):):):)

Help!!! :):):):):)

Let`s get back to the topic.

I mentioned the time when Bolesław the Brave and German emperor Otto III cooperated closely in 1000.

Why?

Otto tried to create the first "European Union" and saw Poland federated with/into Holy Roman Empire, that is why he offered an alliance to the Polish prince at the Congress in Gniezno, 1000.

According to the chronicles by Thietmar of Merseburg, Otto III, who had been a friend of Adalbert,[1] committed to a pilgrimage from Italy to St. Adalbert's tomb in Gniezno; in his attempt to extend the influence of Christianity in Eastern Europe, and to renew the Holy Roman Empire based on a federal concept ("renovatio Imperii Romanorum") with the Polish and Hungarian duchies upgraded to eastern federati of the empire.[2]

Emperor Otto III on his pilgrimage was received by Duke Bolesław at the Polish border on the Bóbr river near Małomice, whereafter Bishop Unger of Poznań conducted him to Gniezno. In the week of 7 to 15 March 1000 Emperor Otto III invested Duke Bolesław with the titles frater et cooperator Imperii ("Brother and Partner of the Empire") and populi Romani amicus et socius[2] as rendered in the 1115 Gesta principum Polonorum by the Kraków chronicler Gallus Anonymus, the first author of Polish history. If the act implemented an elevation of Bolesław to a Polish king at the mercy of the Emperor has not been conlusively established. In any case, Bolesław had himself crowned King of Poland at Gniezno Cathedral in 1025.

On the same visit, Otto III raised Gniezno to the rank of an archbishopric. Three new dioceses subordinate to Gniezno were created: the Bishopric of Kraków (assigned to Bishop Poppo), the Bishopric of Wrocław (assigned to Bishop Jan) and the short-lived Bishopric of Kołobrzeg in Pomerania (assigned to bishop Reinbern).[1] St. Adalbert's brother Radzim Gaudenty became the first archbishop of Gniezno.[1] Otto III gave Bolesław a replica of his Holy Lance, part of the Imperial Regalia, and Bolesław presented the Emperor with a relic, an arm of St. Adalbert in exchange.

Bolesław subsequently accompanied Otto III on his way back to Germany. Both proceeded to the grave of Charlemagne at Aachen Cathedral, where Bolesław received the throne chair as a gift. Both arranged the betrothal of Bolesław's son Mieszko II Lambert with the Emperor's niece Richeza of Lotharing.


d

I saw it but didn`t take photos - prohibited.

The legend says that during his coronation in 1025, Bolesław was holding the Lance.

s

According to Polish government official site for the promotion of Poland, the 1000 Congress and alliance with German Holy Roman Empire was one of the greatest successes of the Polish state`s diplomacy at the time.
Seanus 15 | 19,740    
11 Sep 2011  #55
I guess the Germans benefitted from that Alliance too, pawian. Am I right?

Also, let me quote you. You used the word "gift". If sb gave me a Ferrari as a gift then only at one level would I be happy. It would be compounded more for a Japanese person who follows the logic of 'o-kari' (indebtedness). He couldn't accept the Ferrari as he is morally obliged to buy sth of similar value in return.

Even assuming there is an element of 'owing' here, it would be for Poles of that era and not this one, right?

I'm sorry if you interpret this as trolling but I see it as logical.
delphiandomine 86 | 17,376    
11 Sep 2011  #56
In Germany they are still called Breslau,Krakau,Posen,Stettin in all signs.

The vast majority of signs are in both languages - I can only think of one sign near the border which only uses the German name, and that's possibly because it refers to the German part of the town.

(as for Poland - where German cities are signed, you always see Polish names too)
OP pawian 143 | 7,217    
11 Sep 2011  #57
=Seanus]Even assuming there is an element of 'owing' here, it would be for Poles of that era and not this one, right?

Aren`t we, Poles and Scots of our era, descendants and heirs of Poles and Scots of past eras?
Sokrates 8 | 3,348    
11 Sep 2011  #58
I guess the Germans benefitted from that Alliance too, pawian. Am I right?

The problem is far more interesting.

Germans basically pushed eastwards genociding or assimilating all slavic tribers untill they bounced into polish tribes. Proto-polish tribes were different, they were very populous, lived in fortified cities and were warlike, also they were in the middle of unification, various german nobles attempted to invade and bounced back.

Eventually the German Emperor noticed the expansion stopped and went to investigate, what he found was a powerfull well organised and rapidly growing duchy that could not be conquered without a major war so he vassalised it instead.

Of course Polish rulers were not content to be subdued to Germans, given the HRE miscunduct towards the young country it ended with a series of wars in which Poland won its full sovereignty but thats later history.
OP pawian 143 | 7,217    
11 Sep 2011  #59
=Sokrates]I'll be in Kraków soon, want to grab a drink? :))))

For the time being, I want to grab you and strangle with my own hands for this obnoxious trolling. :):):):):):):)

Then I can have a drink. :):):):)

I have to do it in self defence before you send me to a gas chamber, like you did with millions of people before.
Sokrates 8 | 3,348    
11 Sep 2011  #60
Dont worry i'm all for civilized solutions right now :)))))


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