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What is Poles opinion on Intermarium (Międzymorze)?


Torq 32 | 2,999
22 May 2020 #121
first: we would be completely reliant on German economy

...and vice-versa, Germany would have to rely on our supplies.

second: as a suppliers of components we would receive much less income

...but we don't supply components only. Germany buy our trains and trams, for example.

Also, you have to be realistic - we supply components for German car industry, simply because we don't have our own, and it is highly unlikely to create automotive industry in Poland able to create Polish brands comparable to Audi, VW or Mercedes and able to compete with German products. So, we do what we can in the current circumstances.

The state is not as effective as a private owner when it comes to managing companies.

That is absolutely correct.

However, when it comes to strategic sectors you cannot place them in the hands of individuals who can buy/sell them to anybody at will. I am too old, and have seen to many things in this country, to trust the ownership of strategic sectors to Januszes in white socks (or even those in black socks).

energy and military have to comply with state rules

Energy and military, sure; banking, media and industry, not so much (at least controlling them is much more difficult). And even in the energy sector, if you put it in private hands, you risk actions which go against national interest of Poland.

Some things have to be managed centrally, by the government, because even local authorities, being theoretically state entities, can act against Polish interest. You will find a good example here...

niewygodne.info.pl/artykul9/04524-Zapomniana-prywatyzacja-GPEC-u.htm

... a strategic sector company entrusted to local authorities (the very same thing would/could happen if it was privately owned).

So, as I said - some sectors have to be centrally state-owned, without EVER entrusting them to either private capital or local authorities.
Spike31 3 | 1,504
22 May 2020 #122
Poland should go into high-green-tech and leave old stinkers like coal behind.....

That's the worst advice ever. Instead of using our won energy sources which we've got in abundance Poland should invest huge amount of money is an energy source which is non-sustainable?

The next step should be nuclear for Poland

...and vice-versa, Germany would have to rely on our supplies.

That's just great if we want to make sure that they would reap most of the fuits of our labour forever in the future by shipping final products from under German brands. Think economically
Torq 32 | 2,999
22 May 2020 #123
Think economically

Read the rest of my post. Unless you want to create Polish automotive industry able to compete with BMW, Audi or Mercedes. Good luck with that.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527
22 May 2020 #124
The next step should be nuclear for Poland

Think about the future! The future is green tech....to invest now in a technology which is already old fashioned and being phased out is not smart! You should put your country on top of the skill- and engineering chain, then you can demand later any price you want. The bigger the technological gap to the rest of the world the better!

they would reap most of the fuits of our labour

...and here I thought you are getting paid for your labour! :)
Torq 32 | 2,999
22 May 2020 #125
For me Intermarium is not so much about economy as about safety. Russia is still aggressive and still listens to people like Dugin, so it is in the best interest of all the Intermarium countries to unite and develop close military cooperation and defensive strategy. Relying on NATO (or, let's be honest, the USA) can end exactly like relying on France and Britain ended in 1939.

The next step should be nuclear for Poland

Nuclear weapons. It's a must - I have been saying that for ages.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527
22 May 2020 #126
...and I still don't know where the end goals of Germany and Poland differ so greatly?

Stability?
Freedom?
Safety?

What?
Torq 32 | 2,999
22 May 2020 #127
...and I still don't know where the end goals of Germany and Poland differ so greatly?

They don't.

That's why Germany and Poland have been allied and consistently friendly towards each other in the last 30 years. Even now, with "ultra-nationalistic" government in Poland, do you see any real deterioration of mutual cooperation? No.

As for some people's slight paranoia... well... *sighs*
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527
22 May 2020 #128
Maybe that's just natural....the US has to suffer the same, all these conspiracy theories against the US between even longtime allies populations...

That's why I think all bigger powers, be it politically and/or economically, have to live with a certain amount of suspicion, hate and fear, especially from neighbours....there is not much to be done about it....it's not going away not matter what.

Once Poland rises up enough there will be for sure a "Spike" on some forum calling to be watchful of Poland and to take care it doesn't get's to powerful...heh:)
Torq 32 | 2,999
22 May 2020 #129
That's why I think all bigger powers (...) have to live with a certain amount of suspicion, hate and fear, especially from neighbours

Exactly. Psychology 101.

Once Poland rises up enough there will be for sure a "Spike" on some forum calling to be watchful of Poland

There already are! Apparently you don't read Lithuanian forums ;)
Spike31 3 | 1,504
22 May 2020 #130
Hey, this thread is not about kitchen psychology but geopolitics :-)

to invest now in a technology which is already old fashioned and being phased out is not smart!

The solar and wind farms are a dead end. Only water energy is economically rational, but it doesn't produce enough energy in most countries and it's also dependant on the weather. Nuclear is the best source of energy. French were right.

...and here I thought you are getting paid for your labour! :)

There's a big difference between being paid for labour and making profits from selling final products to end customers.

For me Intermarium is not so much about economy as about safety

Strong economy also stands for safety. There's no real safety without strong, independent economy and industrial capability.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527
22 May 2020 #131
Apparently you don't read Lithuanian forums ;)

....apparently I don't! :)

paid for labour and making profits from selling final products to end customers.

So, the polish supplier doesn't make a profit because of it's paid labour? The polish labourer and their families don't live better than without working for this supplier? Maybe the german company should employ german labourer in Germany again? The german unemployed would be grateful, for sure...
Spike31 3 | 1,504
22 May 2020 #132
So, the polish supplier doesn't make a profit because of it's paid labour?

Like I said before: the profit margin for the final product is always much greater than for components ordered from suppliers. It is a basic economy once you stop thinking in term of wages and salaries and start thinking in terms of profits.

I'll try to explain it to you in more simple terms: let's say you are building a house for sale. A combined cost of materials (profit for components like bricks and cement) and labour (industrial wages and salaries) it is going to be much lower that the final profit from selling the house to the new owner (great profits made from selling to end customer).
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527
22 May 2020 #133
Nuclear is the best source of energy.

Then don't complain in a few years why others are again more competitive than you.....

With the research, developing and engineering comes highly sellable knowledge and skill for the whole high tech industry!
(Whereas everybody and their grandmom does nuclear...or even worse, coal!)

It is a basic economy once you stop thinking in term of wages and salaries and start thinking in terms of profits.

So, you want only what's best for a multi-national corporation with global interests but not for Janusz? Interesting....

it is going to be much lower that the final profit from selling the house to the new owner

The final profit is only higer because the seller could save wages and salaries with employing much cheaper foreign supplier...

Polish firms do the same, the moment they can heighten the profit through cutting wages they will relocate their production lines to somewhere cheaper. Great for the polish company, not so great for Janusz!
Spike31 3 | 1,504
22 May 2020 #134
So, you want only what's best for a multi-national corporation with global interests but not for Janusz? Interesting....

Not for multi-national corps. but for Polish companies, own by Polish capital and based in Poland.

The best thing is that this can be done using the same tools and regulations which were operated by Germany to protect its own industry and economy which will shut all the vocal opposition coming from the "EU core". So Germany better buckle up when Konfederacja get more political power in Poland because those are not only my personal view but they are shared by many clear thinking Poles.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527
22 May 2020 #135
which were operated by Germany to protect its own industry

Yeah....that's why China has bought out so much of the german industry (and with it old engineering skill and knowledge)....

Tell me more of this protection please!!!

own by Poles and based in Poland.

Good luck with that!

All of these world wide successful brand names work and employ globally...and they are owned multi-nationally by their shareholders from all over the world (and China).

Your famous, competitive, rich company owned only by Poles and employing only Poles is only an illusion! (But so would be the same in the german variant).
Spike31 3 | 1,504
22 May 2020 #136
Tell me more of this protection please!!!

Germany will block foreign takeovers to avoid economy sell-out

reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-germany-fund/germany-will-block-foreign-takeovers-to-avoid-economy-sell-out-idUSKBN21717T

Your famous, competitive, rich company owned by Poles and employing only Poles is an illusion!

Doesn't have to employ Poles only. The most important factor here is who controls it, where its HQ is based, where does it spend money for R&D and where does it pay taxes.

CD Projekt Red for example is a Polish company based in Warsaw and run by Polish CEO and president which employs multinational specialists. And it is the biggest game developer in Europe. That's the way

kitguru.net/desktop-pc/mustafa-mahmoud/cd-projekt-has-overtaken-ubisoft-to-become-europes-biggest-game-company/
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527
22 May 2020 #137
Germany will block foreign takeovers to avoid economy sell-out

We never have....we should start though.....just take a look at german big names and tell me which one of those are owned solely by Germans anymore!

and where does it pay taxes.

Again....good luck with that! A big lure to get big firms and many jobs to you (or keep them there) is the exception from taxes (between other bribes)....it's a shark pool out there.

Maybe your Konfederacja will manage to work miracles where every other country failed....Germany (and I) will observe with interest!

And it is the biggest game developer in Europe. That's the way

PS: Game developing is such a niche technology like high green tech would be....nothing everybody and their grandmom does....that's the way!

But right now Games aren't feeding a whole population...(sadly:)
Ironside 49 | 10,174
22 May 2020 #138
I have read that exchange. It generally pointless as it goes on about generalities and some ideas about big plans about three seas initiative.
Devil is in the details. My points:
1. Torq is out with the fairies, putting in as an arguments - Germany has been friendly. WTF is that Torq? Go back to nursery.
2.Spike talking grandiose plans about some mystical Intermarium as if that was an empire building game. Go back on the ground.
3. BB taking spin to the next level. Selling a big cuddly benevolent and innocent German teddy bear image of the country. I don't even blame him, he is doing great job with kids on this Forum.

A. Three seas initiative is economical plan to unlock potential in the trade and exchange on the south - north axis in this part of Europe. Poland want to make sure that some other power won't take over economical and pollical control over that project.

B. EU dealing with Polish transport companies as well as their internal recursions aimed at making playfield difficult for participants from the new EU countries, simply proves that that organization is corrupt and rotten. Focusing instead in some empire building futile exercise with leftie neo-Marxist and Marxist agenda make them bloated fools doomed to fail.

C.Poland economy is in a better shape now that has been for years. In a large part it is due to the fact that Poland is complimentary with German economy. It is good and it is bad. I say that three sea imitative doesn't interfere with the role. Even possible Pol-exist doesn't need to serve those ties.

Also a will to evolve above just a supplementary role of a German powerhouse is not a bad idea. In fact it a must for any country. If not lest just roll up the carpet after 1000 plus years and lets become Germans.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527
22 May 2020 #139
Selling a big cuddly benevolent and innocent German teddy bear image of the country.

Where did I do that?
Torq 32 | 2,999
22 May 2020 #140
In a large part it is due to the fact that Poland is complimentary with German economy.

Yes, that's what I have been saying, if you read the conversation here closely. :)

...and Germany has been, by and large, friendly towards Poland in the last 30 years, so there!
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527
22 May 2020 #141
...ja genau....we only ever beat you at footie now!!!

(And even that might be over now too)
Torq 32 | 2,999
22 May 2020 #142
we only ever beat you at footie now!

Not always! ;)

@Iron - they even gave us Leopard tanks FOR FREE. If that's not friendly, then I don't know what it. *rolls eyes*

let's just roll up the carpet after 1000 plus years and lets become Germans

Well, at least that would improve our position in football. :D
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527
22 May 2020 #143
Gerpolia's football team would so ruuuuuule!!!! :)

*wanders off dreaming*
Spike31 3 | 1,504
22 May 2020 #144
In a large part it is due to the fact that Poland is complimentary with German economy

That's a simple fact. But what's more important is that such a role doesn't benefit Poland and Polish economy in the long run. And after realization of that fact the next step would be

delivering a plan and tools for dealing with that issue cause it will not magically go away. It is a structural problem.

PiS has started solving it with regional cooperation but that's as far as they went so far. They are quite content with the auto-component industry solving an issue of possible higher unemployment rates yet hampering possible future growth of Polish industrial power.

They simply don't understand that skilled wortkforce is a commodity just like any other valuable resource. For them it is more like an issue to deal with than an asset which has a potential to build the wealth of the nation. And that's why we need Konfederacja.

mystical Intermarium as if that was an empire building game

Geopolitics is a very serious zero sum game. Learn the rules of the game and play better than anyone else. Germany understood that in the 50's (and Japan in the 60's) and that's why they're now not delivering components for, lets say, French automotive industry...
Ironside 49 | 10,174
22 May 2020 #145
Where did I do that?

lol!

Germany has been, by and large, friendly towards Poland i

dude, they have being realizing their interests. Friendly my foot. That vocabulary doesn't fit a political debate. Not the way you are using it anyways.

But what's more important is that such a role doesn't benefit Poland and Polish economy in the long run.

There is no disagreement between you and I.

Learn the rules of the game a

Nah, not my point. My point being you don't start with a grandiose plan for the future. Too many unknowns and variables. You go with a simple design a one step of the way. As they say step by step with many options open. That gives you a flexibility.
Zlatko
22 May 2020 #146
Bratwurst Boy, is Bavaria any good for visiting? One lady here complained from the locals in Krakow, she said they're less friendly than Germans lol.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527
22 May 2020 #147
Why not? They can't be worse than Berliners....
Torq 32 | 2,999
22 May 2020 #148
People in Ingolstadt (also Bavaria) are very friendly - I always stop there for a night or two on my way to Italy.
Zlatko
22 May 2020 #149
It seems Poles need to take parts of Ukraine back, around Lwow there are very nice soils it seems: eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/figures/the-major-soil-types-of-europe/image_print

So Poland lost lands with good soils and got poor soils from Germany, what a tradeoff!
Bratwusrts Boy can be proud, Germany has more chernozem (the most fertile soils) than Poland in the Dresden/Magdeburg/Halle areas.
jon357 63 | 15,061
22 May 2020 #150
It seems Poles need to take parts of Ukraine back

Ukraine might have something to say about that.

and got poor soils

And industrial cities, far more valuable.

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