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What is Poles opinion on Intermarium (Międzymorze)?


Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,960    
2 Feb 2019  #61
I'm not sure....I wonder about that actually.
Putin tries to break up the EU, he get's his claws into the V4, then into the Brussel-opposition of it's core members....he pays them, uses paid trolls, his RT and Sputnik propaganda etc......

What use is a hostile Poland to him? PiS is Brussels-sceptic...check...but that leaves Poland rather isolated in Brussels but not much else and his added hostility to Russia makes it not usable for the Kremlins goals actually.

Putin doesn't gains anything from a Poland which shoots to both sides...
xander1    
2 Feb 2019  #62
How would you circumvent Hungary? They're not linguistically Slavic. Also only part Slavic by DNA. Bulgaria is also only minority Slavic by DNA (more common with Hungarians), but linguistically Slavic.

Also both Serbia and Bulgarian people tend to be very Russophilic.
Spike31 2 | 863    
3 Feb 2019  #63
How would you circumvent Hungary? They're not linguistically Slavic

Linguistic has nothing to do when economic interests are at stake. Poland and Hungary have always had close political connections and language was never a great barrier between us. Even if Hungary satisfy their energy needs with gas from Russia, which is their own choice, they'll not block transfer of Polish gas to other 3SI countries.

The whole V4 and 3SI initiative block work on voluntary cooperation and not on German domination like the EU does.

Of course, this move is against both: Russian and German interests and they'll do anything to stop it, but with the US backing we can make it happen.

The US is not doing it for free either, they are a large LNG producer now, which is great cause such an alliance should be based on a solid economic foundations and not a political whim.

Once we build an infrastructure this will solidify the new economic order in Intermarrium for decades.
Lyzko 20 | 6,170    
3 Feb 2019  #64
Language was never a great barrier between you both because Russian was the lingua franca of the former Eastern Block along with German.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,960    
3 Feb 2019  #65
Of course, this move is against both: Russian and German interests and they'll do anything to stop it, but with the US backing we can make it happen.

What about V4 generally? Do you think it is viable in the long run, with it's members split on Russia? How should any US backing solve that?
Lyzko 20 | 6,170    
3 Feb 2019  #66
It can't, B.B.
Spike31 2 | 863    
3 Feb 2019  #67
What about V4 generally?

V4 cooperation is fueled by two engines:

Positive one: an economic cooperation between countries with similar-level economies and a similar political past. There are some large regional projects in making like a Via Carpathia highway, power transmission grids and gas and oil pipelines.

Negative one: a migrant crisis, and a threat of a mandatory migrant quotas, which would especially hits Hungary. Yet, opposition to taking "refugees" is very high in all V4 countries.

Right now both of those engines are running at full power

How should any US backing solve that?

US is a global power. US backing acts as an umbrella in case other players would want to play "dirty". Once the US will see a greater economic interest in cooperation with V4, they will be more likely to act on our behalf.

Poland needs it until we build up out economic and military power to a level in which it would be completely unprofitable, thus highly unlikely, to attack us. Basically to a point of a mutual destruction in case of aggression. Something that a much smaller Israel has achieved in Middle-East.

Until then we need the US in Europe.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,960    
3 Feb 2019  #68
...and you totally avoided the core of my question, the sympathies by some of V4's members for Putin's Russia.

Russia doesn't want anymore US meddling in Europe, Trump seems to agree with that. So do the Russian-sympathizers in Europe....

I that regard the anti-refugee engine will run on empty very soon, as the quota-idea is now dead for good, and the numbers for newly incoming refugees are sinking lower and lower.

But the Russia-question still stands and will gain importance!
Spike31 2 | 863    
3 Feb 2019  #69
Russia doesn't want anymore US meddling in Europe, Trump seems to agree with that. So do the Russian-sympathizers in Europe....

Russia is getting more and more nervous, making aggressive moves towards their neighbours. First Ukraine and now they're even putting more pressure on Belarus...that's a good news in a way. The world sees it. Russia is showing that they are willing to attack or at least discipline their friends and allies.

rferl.org/a/analysis-under-moscow-pressure-could-belarus-s-balancing-act-come-crashing-down-/29720188.html

They've even made a peace loving Swedes to increase their military spendings and make a new national defense plan.

defensenews.com/global/europe/2018/09/12/new-swedish-government-advocates-for-greater-defense-spending/

Also the US, and Trump, wants to block NorthStream II, which is to be or not to be for Russia. So he can publicly tap Putin on the back but in his Oval office he's still making decisions which hits Russia.

fortune.com/2019/01/14/nord-stream-2-sanctions/

And let's not forget that Trump has recently suspended the INF treaty. Hardly a pro-Russian step.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,960    
3 Feb 2019  #70
....So he can publicly tap Putin on the back but in his Oval office he's still making decisions which hits Russia.

I don't think he makes any decisions to "hit" Russia...he wants to support US firms selling expensive LNG"s and as long as you buy from him instead from the rival you are a "goodie" in his black book...that's a small but important difference, remember "MAGA".

The same with the INF treaty....the Kreml won't be now anymore oblieged to keep to the treaty either, which opens the doors to a new weapons race.

"They announced that they are engaged in research & technological development work, and we will do the same."

edition.cnn.com/2019/02/02/europe/russia-inf-treaty-intl/index.html

How cuddly for all countries between them, right?

There is nothing pro-polish or pro-V4 or anti-russian about Trumps decisions. I wouldn't bet on him when the **** hits the fan...
Ironside 47 | 9,497    
3 Feb 2019  #71
he sympathies by some of V4's members for Putin's Russia.

Its hard to build a viable political connecting basing it solely on sympathies. Firstly there needs to a common interest that connect the parties and from there everything need to be and should worked on. Prerequisite factors for building a solid block of states in this part of the world without Russian or German meddling definitely exist.

What will happen? nobody knows.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,960    
3 Feb 2019  #72
Prerequisite factors for building a solid block of states in this part of the world without Russian or German meddling definitely exist.

Hmm...I doubt that.

The foundation of the V4 was an interesting step, the idea had alot going for it. But the reality shows they don't live removed from the rest of Europe on a happy island...
Spike31 2 | 863    
3 Feb 2019  #73
the Kreml won't be now anymore oblieged to keep to the treaty either, which opens the doors to a new weapons race.

And they never did respect the treaty. Only a cowardly Western European politicians have turned a blind eye to an obvious fact that Russians had such weapons at least since 2012.

Not to mention that the whole treaty banned only a land-based missile launchers with ranges 500-5000 kilometres.

Russians have build naval vessels capable of launching 3M-14/3M-14T Kalibr missiles with an effective range of up to 2500 kilometres. They could reach all parts of Europe right from a Baltic Sea.

The whole pact became just a shell and it only blocked NATO from developing an effective response to this threat.
delphiandomine 85 | 17,644    
3 Feb 2019  #74
Right now both of those engines are running at full power

They're not running at all. You're promoting a fantasy that simply doesn't exist in reality.

In fact, the Czechs under Babis support Nord Stream 2. So, as we have it, the Czechs want Nord Stream 2 as they'll get large transit fees, the Slovaks are halfway through a long term gas deal with Russia and the Hungarians are about to sign a long term gas deal, as well as the nuclear power deal which will result in complete Hungarian dependence on Russian energy. All of this means that there's very little political support for Polish ideas, not least because gas supplied by Poland will be significantly more expensive than Russian gas. For most people in the V4 (especially in rural Slovakia and Hungary), they're not going to accept 20-30% higher gas bills just because Poland wants to play.

Poland needs it until we build up out economic and military power to a level in which it would be completely unprofitable

And where's the money coming from? The same fantasy source that claims the V4 to be a strong alliance and not just a hilarious local talking shop?
Crow 143 | 7,407    
10 May 2019  #75
Alternative to EU if it fails to be Eastern-European and Slavic-friendly is Intermarium or to say Central-European Union. Now, alternative to Central-European Union, if countries failed to organize and escape to western European dictate, is this >>> Slavic Orthodox Union that will be joined to Eurasian Union >>>

If that happens, all Eastern European and Central European countries that aren`t in Slavic Orthodox Union will be locked within European Union permanently and serve as eternal younger player and base for assimilation, resources and border military regions. Those countries won`t be able to themselves form Central-European Union independent from western Europe and prospect is their clear internal division where some parts would seek to stay within EU and some would seek to join in Slavic Union previously formed by Orthodox Slavs. Czech Republic and Slovakia would become non-functional states if set in any conglomerate that separate them from Serbia permanently. Not to mention that prospect of Slavic Orthodox Union preventing any chance of Belarus ever making closer ties with Poland. Not to speak of Ukraine that will inevitable split on at least two to three separate states, where most of it would join with Slavic Orthodox Union.

Now, Serbia`s first choice will always be Central-European Union, if EU continue with failures. If Official Poland continue with betrayal of Serbia and continue to hijack Hungarian efforts in direction of Central-European Union, where Visegrad itself represent embryo of CEU, Serbia won`t have any choice but to make a move in direction of Slavic Orthodox Union and save its territory intact, save itself from assimilation by western Europeans and secure its future.

CEU

Initiation stage of Central-European Union (CEU) by suggestion of Hungarian PM Viktor Orban

sou

Orthodox Slavic Union (OSU)

eau

Eurasian Union (EAU)

What you think, did Duda and Tusk sold Poland and future of Poles?

My answer is positive.
Miloslaw 6 | 1,522    
10 May 2019  #76
@Crow
Good luck with that one mate!
So you want to become a Russian citizen then?
Crow 143 | 7,407    
10 May 2019  #77
I told. Serbia will seek its luck in Slavic Orthodox Union if Poland fails to turn to Central-European Union, if Poland`s leadership continue its anti-Polish policy. To us Serbs its clear that we have very good prospects in both- Central-European Union and in Slavic Orthodox Union (actually Eurasian Union). So, Serbia`s final choice will depend on choices of other players.

But Poland. You are blind if you don`t see that Poland don`t have chance to survive on all its territory without Central-European Union. Its so clear. In process Poland have all chances to ruin Czeska and Slovakia but they will make escape from EU more or less unharmed.
pawian 150 | 7,961    
10 May 2019  #78
Poland don`t have chance to survive on all its territory without Central-European Union.

How come?
Crow 143 | 7,407    
10 May 2019  #79
Explain to me HOW have chance to survive? Without CEU, in EU, in 50 years 15-20 million Poles won`t be Poles. Then, when becomes clear that won`t be CEU ever and when those countries that manage to escape EU join in Slavic Orthodox Union, pressure on Poland by western Europe will dramatically increase to the level where would those (Slavs in Poland) who refuse to be assimilated, attempt to secede and join with SOU. This development is absolutely certain.

We Serbs won`t eat French, German and Anglo sh**. If Poland is suicidal we aren`t. We will make our last stand within SOU if there is no CEU. We have greater chance to reform Russia and change it, then we have chance to affect western Europe that will only swallow us within EU.
pawian 150 | 7,961    
10 May 2019  #80
Without CEU, in EU, in 50 years 15-20 million Poles won`t be Poles

I see your point. Who knows?

But we are living now, not in 50 years. Now Poles want to take advantage of all benefits that the EU offers (not only money) and nobody is thinking how Poland will look in 50 years` time.

We have greater chance to reform Russia and change it,

You should know that if you count on Russia to help you regain Kosovo, you will be disappointed. They can`t do it because it would mean they have to give up Crimea and that won`t happen soon, whether in a reformed or unreformed Russia.
Vlad1234 14 | 536    
11 May 2019  #81
What an economic and administrative cooperation between Medzomorze members could look like?
Crow 143 | 7,407    
11 May 2019  #82
nobody is thinking how Poland will look in 50 years` time.

Its sad actually. And events even accelerate.

What an economic and administrative cooperation between Medzomorze members could look like?

Possibilities are enormous. In economic sense it can function similarly how function European Union or Eurasian Union.

Plus, we can achieve greater level of internal unity than it would be ever possible within EU. Within EU would always exist regional clans: western Europe, Spain and Portugal, Visegrad group, western Balkan zone, Southern Balkan zone, etc.

How is possible that this thread isn`t more interesting for discussion to Poles here. Are Poles blind not to see how things developing in Europe? There will be Central-European Union and Poland within it or there would be catastrophe for Poland.

Would it be Poland by the `Kanopisht pact` or somewhat similar to it, after EU? Catholic state where is Catholicism important and ethnicity isn`t important. Is it the project where would be Poland contained with what remain of Ukraine and some other Catholic countries. If things goes this way, Poland will be kind of rogue, extremist country, fascist or nazi and we all know what get countries with such a role in international arena on the long run.

Would be partition of Poland on parts that stays within EU and parts that goes who knows where, when new conglomerates emerge in Europe?

And don`t get me wrong. If I as a Serbian some time ago was upset with development regarding status of Serbia in the future, I am now quite peaceful. I understand now what role befall my country and its a role of continental economic hub. One can`t ask for more. You have major continental economic wealth flow, you affect continental policy. So I don`t force this discussion because of Serbia that will be just fine. I now only worry for Poland. I sow Poland in future Central-European Union with Serbia. Duda said he would push for Intermarium/Central Europe but Duda betrayed his promises. He, or those who controls him, whoever they are, isolates Poland from all countries that push in direction of Central-European Union. From Hungary and Serbia, firstly.
Crow 143 | 7,407    
15 May 2019  #83
Interesting view >>> What was the INTERMARIUM PLAN ?

youtu.be/s3Znu1sIJ7M


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