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What is Poles opinion on Intermarium (Międzymorze)?


Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,528
2 Feb 2019 #61
I'm not sure....I wonder about that actually.
Putin tries to break up the EU, he get's his claws into the V4, then into the Brussel-opposition of it's core members....he pays them, uses paid trolls, his RT and Sputnik propaganda etc......

What use is a hostile Poland to him? PiS is Brussels-sceptic...check...but that leaves Poland rather isolated in Brussels but not much else and his added hostility to Russia makes it not usable for the Kremlins goals actually.

Putin doesn't gains anything from a Poland which shoots to both sides...
xander1
2 Feb 2019 #62
How would you circumvent Hungary? They're not linguistically Slavic. Also only part Slavic by DNA. Bulgaria is also only minority Slavic by DNA (more common with Hungarians), but linguistically Slavic.

Also both Serbia and Bulgarian people tend to be very Russophilic.
Spike31 3 | 1,504
3 Feb 2019 #63
How would you circumvent Hungary? They're not linguistically Slavic

Linguistic has nothing to do when economic interests are at stake. Poland and Hungary have always had close political connections and language was never a great barrier between us. Even if Hungary satisfy their energy needs with gas from Russia, which is their own choice, they'll not block transfer of Polish gas to other 3SI countries.

The whole V4 and 3SI initiative block work on voluntary cooperation and not on German domination like the EU does.

Of course, this move is against both: Russian and German interests and they'll do anything to stop it, but with the US backing we can make it happen.

The US is not doing it for free either, they are a large LNG producer now, which is great cause such an alliance should be based on a solid economic foundations and not a political whim.

Once we build an infrastructure this will solidify the new economic order in Intermarrium for decades.
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
3 Feb 2019 #64
Language was never a great barrier between you both because Russian was the lingua franca of the former Eastern Block along with German.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,528
3 Feb 2019 #65
Of course, this move is against both: Russian and German interests and they'll do anything to stop it, but with the US backing we can make it happen.

What about V4 generally? Do you think it is viable in the long run, with it's members split on Russia? How should any US backing solve that?
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
3 Feb 2019 #66
It can't, B.B.
Spike31 3 | 1,504
3 Feb 2019 #67
What about V4 generally?

V4 cooperation is fueled by two engines:

Positive one: an economic cooperation between countries with similar-level economies and a similar political past. There are some large regional projects in making like a Via Carpathia highway, power transmission grids and gas and oil pipelines.

Negative one: a migrant crisis, and a threat of a mandatory migrant quotas, which would especially hits Hungary. Yet, opposition to taking "refugees" is very high in all V4 countries.

Right now both of those engines are running at full power

How should any US backing solve that?

US is a global power. US backing acts as an umbrella in case other players would want to play "dirty". Once the US will see a greater economic interest in cooperation with V4, they will be more likely to act on our behalf.

Poland needs it until we build up out economic and military power to a level in which it would be completely unprofitable, thus highly unlikely, to attack us. Basically to a point of a mutual destruction in case of aggression. Something that a much smaller Israel has achieved in Middle-East.

Until then we need the US in Europe.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,528
3 Feb 2019 #68
...and you totally avoided the core of my question, the sympathies by some of V4's members for Putin's Russia.

Russia doesn't want anymore US meddling in Europe, Trump seems to agree with that. So do the Russian-sympathizers in Europe....

I that regard the anti-refugee engine will run on empty very soon, as the quota-idea is now dead for good, and the numbers for newly incoming refugees are sinking lower and lower.

But the Russia-question still stands and will gain importance!
Spike31 3 | 1,504
3 Feb 2019 #69
Russia doesn't want anymore US meddling in Europe, Trump seems to agree with that. So do the Russian-sympathizers in Europe....

Russia is getting more and more nervous, making aggressive moves towards their neighbours. First Ukraine and now they're even putting more pressure on Belarus...that's a good news in a way. The world sees it. Russia is showing that they are willing to attack or at least discipline their friends and allies.

rferl.org/a/analysis-under-moscow-pressure-could-belarus-s-balancing-act-come-crashing-down-/29720188.html

They've even made a peace loving Swedes to increase their military spendings and make a new national defense plan.

defensenews.com/global/europe/2018/09/12/new-swedish-government-advocates-for-greater-defense-spending/

Also the US, and Trump, wants to block NorthStream II, which is to be or not to be for Russia. So he can publicly tap Putin on the back but in his Oval office he's still making decisions which hits Russia.

fortune.com/2019/01/14/nord-stream-2-sanctions/

And let's not forget that Trump has recently suspended the INF treaty. Hardly a pro-Russian step.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,528
3 Feb 2019 #70
....So he can publicly tap Putin on the back but in his Oval office he's still making decisions which hits Russia.

I don't think he makes any decisions to "hit" Russia...he wants to support US firms selling expensive LNG"s and as long as you buy from him instead from the rival you are a "goodie" in his black book...that's a small but important difference, remember "MAGA".

The same with the INF treaty....the Kreml won't be now anymore oblieged to keep to the treaty either, which opens the doors to a new weapons race.

"They announced that they are engaged in research & technological development work, and we will do the same."

edition.cnn.com/2019/02/02/europe/russia-inf-treaty-intl/index.html

How cuddly for all countries between them, right?

There is nothing pro-polish or pro-V4 or anti-russian about Trumps decisions. I wouldn't bet on him when the **** hits the fan...
Ironside 49 | 10,177
3 Feb 2019 #71
he sympathies by some of V4's members for Putin's Russia.

Its hard to build a viable political connecting basing it solely on sympathies. Firstly there needs to a common interest that connect the parties and from there everything need to be and should worked on. Prerequisite factors for building a solid block of states in this part of the world without Russian or German meddling definitely exist.

What will happen? nobody knows.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,528
3 Feb 2019 #72
Prerequisite factors for building a solid block of states in this part of the world without Russian or German meddling definitely exist.

Hmm...I doubt that.

The foundation of the V4 was an interesting step, the idea had alot going for it. But the reality shows they don't live removed from the rest of Europe on a happy island...
Spike31 3 | 1,504
3 Feb 2019 #73
the Kreml won't be now anymore oblieged to keep to the treaty either, which opens the doors to a new weapons race.

And they never did respect the treaty. Only a cowardly Western European politicians have turned a blind eye to an obvious fact that Russians had such weapons at least since 2012.

Not to mention that the whole treaty banned only a land-based missile launchers with ranges 500-5000 kilometres.

Russians have build naval vessels capable of launching 3M-14/3M-14T Kalibr missiles with an effective range of up to 2500 kilometres. They could reach all parts of Europe right from a Baltic Sea.

The whole pact became just a shell and it only blocked NATO from developing an effective response to this threat.
delphiandomine 84 | 18,135
3 Feb 2019 #74
Right now both of those engines are running at full power

They're not running at all. You're promoting a fantasy that simply doesn't exist in reality.

In fact, the Czechs under Babis support Nord Stream 2. So, as we have it, the Czechs want Nord Stream 2 as they'll get large transit fees, the Slovaks are halfway through a long term gas deal with Russia and the Hungarians are about to sign a long term gas deal, as well as the nuclear power deal which will result in complete Hungarian dependence on Russian energy. All of this means that there's very little political support for Polish ideas, not least because gas supplied by Poland will be significantly more expensive than Russian gas. For most people in the V4 (especially in rural Slovakia and Hungary), they're not going to accept 20-30% higher gas bills just because Poland wants to play.

Poland needs it until we build up out economic and military power to a level in which it would be completely unprofitable

And where's the money coming from? The same fantasy source that claims the V4 to be a strong alliance and not just a hilarious local talking shop?
Crow 138 | 8,393
10 May 2019 #75
Alternative to EU if it fails to be Eastern-European and Slavic-friendly is Intermarium or to say Central-European Union. Now, alternative to Central-European Union, if countries failed to organize and escape to western European dictate, is this >>> Slavic Orthodox Union that will be joined to Eurasian Union >>>

If that happens, all Eastern European and Central European countries that aren`t in Slavic Orthodox Union will be locked within European Union permanently and serve as eternal younger player and base for assimilation, resources and border military regions. Those countries won`t be able to themselves form Central-European Union independent from western Europe and prospect is their clear internal division where some parts would seek to stay within EU and some would seek to join in Slavic Union previously formed by Orthodox Slavs. Czech Republic and Slovakia would become non-functional states if set in any conglomerate that separate them from Serbia permanently. Not to mention that prospect of Slavic Orthodox Union preventing any chance of Belarus ever making closer ties with Poland. Not to speak of Ukraine that will inevitable split on at least two to three separate states, where most of it would join with Slavic Orthodox Union.

Now, Serbia`s first choice will always be Central-European Union, if EU continue with failures. If Official Poland continue with betrayal of Serbia and continue to hijack Hungarian efforts in direction of Central-European Union, where Visegrad itself represent embryo of CEU, Serbia won`t have any choice but to make a move in direction of Slavic Orthodox Union and save its territory intact, save itself from assimilation by western Europeans and secure its future.

CEU

Initiation stage of Central-European Union (CEU) by suggestion of Hungarian PM Viktor Orban

sou

Orthodox Slavic Union (OSU)

eau

Eurasian Union (EAU)

What you think, did Duda and Tusk sold Poland and future of Poles?

My answer is positive.
Miloslaw 7 | 3,106
10 May 2019 #76
@Crow
Good luck with that one mate!
So you want to become a Russian citizen then?
Crow 138 | 8,393
10 May 2019 #77
I told. Serbia will seek its luck in Slavic Orthodox Union if Poland fails to turn to Central-European Union, if Poland`s leadership continue its anti-Polish policy. To us Serbs its clear that we have very good prospects in both- Central-European Union and in Slavic Orthodox Union (actually Eurasian Union). So, Serbia`s final choice will depend on choices of other players.

But Poland. You are blind if you don`t see that Poland don`t have chance to survive on all its territory without Central-European Union. Its so clear. In process Poland have all chances to ruin Czeska and Slovakia but they will make escape from EU more or less unharmed.
pawian 168 | 11,014
10 May 2019 #78
Poland don`t have chance to survive on all its territory without Central-European Union.

How come?
Crow 138 | 8,393
10 May 2019 #79
Explain to me HOW have chance to survive? Without CEU, in EU, in 50 years 15-20 million Poles won`t be Poles. Then, when becomes clear that won`t be CEU ever and when those countries that manage to escape EU join in Slavic Orthodox Union, pressure on Poland by western Europe will dramatically increase to the level where would those (Slavs in Poland) who refuse to be assimilated, attempt to secede and join with SOU. This development is absolutely certain.

We Serbs won`t eat French, German and Anglo sh**. If Poland is suicidal we aren`t. We will make our last stand within SOU if there is no CEU. We have greater chance to reform Russia and change it, then we have chance to affect western Europe that will only swallow us within EU.
pawian 168 | 11,014
10 May 2019 #80
Without CEU, in EU, in 50 years 15-20 million Poles won`t be Poles

I see your point. Who knows?

But we are living now, not in 50 years. Now Poles want to take advantage of all benefits that the EU offers (not only money) and nobody is thinking how Poland will look in 50 years` time.

We have greater chance to reform Russia and change it,

You should know that if you count on Russia to help you regain Kosovo, you will be disappointed. They can`t do it because it would mean they have to give up Crimea and that won`t happen soon, whether in a reformed or unreformed Russia.
Vlad1234 16 | 604
11 May 2019 #81
What an economic and administrative cooperation between Medzomorze members could look like?
Crow 138 | 8,393
11 May 2019 #82
nobody is thinking how Poland will look in 50 years` time.

Its sad actually. And events even accelerate.

What an economic and administrative cooperation between Medzomorze members could look like?

Possibilities are enormous. In economic sense it can function similarly how function European Union or Eurasian Union.

Plus, we can achieve greater level of internal unity than it would be ever possible within EU. Within EU would always exist regional clans: western Europe, Spain and Portugal, Visegrad group, western Balkan zone, Southern Balkan zone, etc.

How is possible that this thread isn`t more interesting for discussion to Poles here. Are Poles blind not to see how things developing in Europe? There will be Central-European Union and Poland within it or there would be catastrophe for Poland.

Would it be Poland by the `Kanopisht pact` or somewhat similar to it, after EU? Catholic state where is Catholicism important and ethnicity isn`t important. Is it the project where would be Poland contained with what remain of Ukraine and some other Catholic countries. If things goes this way, Poland will be kind of rogue, extremist country, fascist or nazi and we all know what get countries with such a role in international arena on the long run.

Would be partition of Poland on parts that stays within EU and parts that goes who knows where, when new conglomerates emerge in Europe?

And don`t get me wrong. If I as a Serbian some time ago was upset with development regarding status of Serbia in the future, I am now quite peaceful. I understand now what role befall my country and its a role of continental economic hub. One can`t ask for more. You have major continental economic wealth flow, you affect continental policy. So I don`t force this discussion because of Serbia that will be just fine. I now only worry for Poland. I sow Poland in future Central-European Union with Serbia. Duda said he would push for Intermarium/Central Europe but Duda betrayed his promises. He, or those who controls him, whoever they are, isolates Poland from all countries that push in direction of Central-European Union. From Hungary and Serbia, firstly.
Crow 138 | 8,393
15 May 2019 #83
Interesting view >>> What was the INTERMARIUM PLAN ?

youtu.be/s3Znu1sIJ7M

News

Hungarian troops on Kosovo are on the verge of rebellion against NATO. Hungarian soldiers harder and harder accepting to be put in situation to cooperate with radical Muslim mafia Albanians against Christian Serbs. Serbian President Vucic talked last night by phone with Hungarian PM Orban.

Are you people aware that right in this moment, Serbia and Hungary write history of Intermarium. No, you aren`t aware. You absolutely don`t have information. Poland don`t have information.
Torq 32 | 2,999
16 Apr 2020 #84
This looks OK...

Intermarium

...as far as Międzymorze is concerned, but apparently there is one sea missing in Intermarium - Adriatic. Slovenia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Montenegro and Macedonia should also be included (with Lithuania, Moldavia and Bosnia as optional members to consider).

In any case - the core is already there - V4. If we add Romania to V4, we have access to the Black Sea. When we add Slovenia or Croatia we have access to Adriatic. So, theoretically the addition of only two of those three countries (all memebers of the EU) creates ABC (Adriatic, Baltic, Czarne), which is the whole point of Intermarium.

Addition of other countries will give additional strategic/economic/demographic depth, so the optimal form of Međumorje should take this into account.

Of course there are other ideas (like including all the Baltics and Austria in the Union)...

Medumorje

...but Latvia and Estonia gravitate rather towards the Scandinavia, and Austria towards the EU core. Also, I wouldn't leave Serbia out of the equation.
Spike31 3 | 1,504
16 Apr 2020 #85
Of course there are other ideas (like including all the Baltics and Austria in the Union)...

I've got a feeling that Austria is a Trojan horse in 3SI but since it's too weak to influence the decision making process it is not a major threat to the whole organisation.

The major win would be to somehow include Italy to 3SI but for that the whole innitiative needs to mature and become more powerful and influential in Europe.
Crow 138 | 8,393
16 Apr 2020 #86
Main question is what Poland want. Is that Intermarium as Pilsudski suggested (balance between western Europe and Russia) it or Poland by the Kanopisht (Clero-Catholic Poland, Vatican-Germanic project, as ultimately anti-Russian creation).

...as far as Międzymorze is concerned, but apparently there is one sea missing in Intermarium - Adriatic.

If its Intermarium Poland want, then you don`t worry for Adriatic. You know how Adriatic came to Slavic hands? First, it was always populated by Serbs, even when Rome, Venice, Hungary or Austria controlled it. Then Serbs liberated it and opposition countered with project of `Clero-Catholic Croat nation`, firstly, out from Catholic Serbs and then also from converted Orthodox Serbs. Then finally, Serbian state liberated Slavic/Serbian part of Adriatic and won it for the Slavic world. But Serbs mistaken. We didn`t listen good Polish Czartorisky and we didn`t create Greater Serbia (as he pointed out- Greater Serbia is just ethnic natural Serbia, ie where live all Serbs, of Orthodox, Catholic and Muslim faith), after WWI but, we fell in trap of creating Yugoslavia. We now know that Yugoslavia was Vatican`t and cominetrna`s trap for Serbs, with consent of western Europe and USA, our allies who betrayed us.

All in all, its not over yet. Things change rapidly. How things stand, all states, except Serbia, created from the ruin of former Yugoslavia, are semi-states, puppets, false states and not able to exist in real world, out of their political projects. For various reasons. Apart from Serbia, only Slovenia may be exception here.

In any case - the core is already there - V4. If we add Romania to V4

Conditionally. As I said, all depend on what Poland or to say it correctly, what those who lead Poland want or to say even more correctly, depending on what world powers already agreed to be destine of Poland. In any case, Poland, Poles and those who love them may try to at least tackle and affect things.

I will tell you what political commentators in Serbia says and they knows. Sums up of it is that when collapse, EU is going to split on at least two conglomerates. 1. Western Europe (French-German axis), 2. Poland (by Kanopisht), 3. Serbia (extended so called working title `Little Shengen` or it would be 4. Poland-Serbia (Intermarium or New Commonwealth).

In game is also `Orthodox Union` but, essentially, its rather trap same is `Kanopisht` is trap for Poland. So, more and more in Serbia we speak of `Little Shengen` and `Little Shengen plus` as working title. Hungarian Orban is wise and he speaks of `Visegrad plus` and call Serbia to be main plus in it, while at the same time don`t see survival of Croatia. Orban speaks real politic and possible speaks in name of those in Poland, as possible agreed, ... those who knows that Poland have no true option but Intermarium.

Serbia, on the other side, when once consolidate entirely, when dust in the region settle down and Serbia encompass of at least 60-70% of former Yugoslavia, all would want with Serbia, even Visegrad members. Its about ideology and spirit that Serbia promote and defend. Its about only force that can make things normal again, that can make us all great again as we truly are great and that is `Sarmatism`, that essentially refuse any foreign rule over us and care for all our specific interests.

But Poland have it in itself and we wait for Poland. Corey Lewandowski knows it. We Serbs wait for Poland to awake.

ps

ps

ps

Corey Lewandowski in Belgrade, some year ago, in talk with richest Serbia`s economic magnates, with Serbia`s decision-makers; few days after this lunch Cory Lewandoski opened private Polonia`s company that established money flow with Serb Bosnian leadership

I've got a feeling that Austria is a

Austria becoming interesting in combination if Pan-Serbian card is activated, if entire Germanic world start to fall apart and return to its natural/original Slaveno-Serbian state, if the parts of very Germany secede from Germany and seek joining to rising Intermarium or some Central-European Union led by Belgrade, while rest of Germany join with France in some future Western European Union or Western European Union plus (read plus Northern Africa).

Sure, this scenario or any other depend on agreement between three main world powers, USA, China and Russia. I heard, I had right information. New Yalta is truly suggested to happen in June in Belgrade.
Torq 32 | 2,999
16 Apr 2020 #87
The major win would be to somehow include Italy

I don't know about that. Intermarium cannot be too small, but it can't be too large either. It's a question of cohesion.

In game is also `Orthodox Union` but, essentially, its rather trap same is `Kanopisht` is trap for Poland.

The solution is to include Serbia in Intermarium, and finally pull it out from Russia's orbit. Mind you, Międzymorze doesn't have to be hostile towards Russia - it all depends on whether Russia wants cooperation or confrontation.

Germany

I was thinking rather of including Germany in the union. After all - they are essentially a Central European nation...

CEE

...if we could somehow combine Medjumorje with Mitteleuropa ("Two M's" - a nice slogan :)) that would truly be a power bloc.

As for France - they can have their northern Africa, I don't care, but I want Germany with us (that would give us nice industrial/financial backup too).
Crow 138 | 8,393
16 Apr 2020 #88
I don't know about that. Intermarium cannot be too small, but it can't be too large either. It's a question of cohesion.

When it comes to Italy, its predestined for another civilization. With France.

But, don`t hesitate to think in truly large measures of territory. What we live now is era of forming of global civilizations. It can be small as Isreal or Japan (one sole global civilization) or it can be as double as Russia. It depending on factors that will determine those civilizations and their role in world that emerging.

The solution is to include Serbia in Intermarium, and finally pull it out from Russia's orbit.

You too much worry for Russia, my friend. Today`s politics work other way. Listen... Russia is to become Eurasian Union, one of global civilizations that will include even Iran, Kazahstan, etc.

Chance that Serbia become part of that Eurasian Union is same as chances of Poland itself. How so? Because, if need to happen that way, it will happen and it will happen in scenario if USA and Russia agree to split entire Europe on two zones- Slavic and Anglo. In that case even France cease to exist.

But, I read different signals in forming global civilizations. Its as I said before.

I was thinking rather of including Germany in the union. After all - they are essentially a Central European nation...

Yes. You know, some in Germany, in Saxony and Lusatia already thinks this way. They know where they belong.

Great chance is that plan bringing collapse of Germany. I do believe it goes with us, with Central European Union. But it would be allowed only if Belgrade lead the process of it. Why? Simple, because of future role of such a conglomerate. Why would now Russia allow to be formed something that is founded on hate on Russia? See? Do you begins to understand why it must be Belgrade? Yes, Russians would be satisfied that conglomerate not to be anti-Russian and neutral. And that factor of neutrality is exactly what will satisfy USA. Only Belgrade can bring it and most probably, only thanks to historical and geo-strategic position of Belgrade, Intremarium (Central European Union) even becoming possible.
Spike31 3 | 1,504
16 Apr 2020 #89
The major win would be to somehow include Italy to 3SI

It's a question of cohesion.

and then

I was thinking rather of including Germany in the union

if we could somehow combine Medjumorje with Mitteleuropa

The whole point of Intermarium is for Poland to become a truly independent state. If Poland wanted to become a German orbiting state we could stay in the EU, join eurozone and the EU core and "ever closer union" and opt for federalization...
Torq 32 | 2,999
16 Apr 2020 #90
Only Belgrade can bring it

Well, Serbia can definitely be a valuable asset, for many reasons.

the EU core

What you call the "EU core" doesn't make sense at all. Germany doesn't belong to the same civilisation as Latin countries. It's as Crow says - France should have their Mediterranean Union with Italy, Spain, Portugal and Greece where they can feel at home, discussing what new loans to take, and how much deeper in debt to sink. And they can have Northern Africa on top of it as far as I'm concerned. Unless by "EU core" you mean Germany, Austria and Netherlands (but that wouldn't be much of a union, would it?).

Actually, Germany has much more to do with Poland than with France (you know what they say - scratch a German, and you find a Pole underneath ;)). Including Germany in the union wouldn't mean such a loss of cohesion as including Italy, and the benefits they might bring with them would be huge (as opposed to Italy, who will most likely bring more problems than solutions). The only thing that would seriously worry me is German/Austrian muslim population - rather large and still growing. We might want to keep that outside our borders. Hm...

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