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What is Poles opinion on Intermarium (Międzymorze)?


Spike31 3 | 1,504
16 Apr 2020 #91
What you call the "EU core" doesn't make sense at all.

By the EU core I call the most "progressive" [regressive in my opinion] EU countries binded together by neo-marxism which is a dominant ideology in Brussel's "elites".

It has nothing to do with the European civilisation. EU doesn't equals Europe. EU is an antithesis of an European civilisation traditionally based on Greek philosophy, Roman law and Christianity.
Torq 32 | 2,999
16 Apr 2020 #92
neo-marxism

Spot on. That's why I don't believe in Poland ever becoming the part of the so-called "core" if they don't drop this marxist nonsense.

EU is an antithesis of an European civilisation traditionally based on Greek philosophy, Roman law and Christianity.

Well, in certain aspects they definitely are.
Crow 138 | 8,391
16 Apr 2020 #93
whole point of Intermarium is for Poland to become a truly independent state.

Rather think of Intermarium in modern terms, in Multi-Polar world of emerging global civlizations. If Germany become part of it (Central European Union) then Germany cease to exist. It will join as several different states that embraced their Slaveno-Serbian past. It would be their return to us. What refuse that will join around France in Western European Union plus.

France should have their Mediterranean Union with Italy, Spain, Portugal and Greece where .....,

Exactly. We live in completely new era. Era where all have to have win win solution. If Germany collapse it won`t came as punishment to Germany. It would rather come as natural process, as salvation to population there and as measure of balance for that region and rest of Multi-Polar world.

And historical science must be liberated from politics. We all would learn to face facts and live with it. Why? Facts bringing progress. Lies bringing manipulation and decadency.
Spike31 3 | 1,504
16 Apr 2020 #94
If Germany become part of it (Central European Union) then Germany cease to exist.

And you're thinking that Germany would passively submit to that process?

Historically speaking Germany rather absorb than being absorbed. And given their [still] vast economic potential they would rather aim to dominate the organisation and transform it to serve their own purpose just like they did with the EU.
Ironside 49 | 10,174
16 Apr 2020 #95
I was thinking rather of including Germany in the union.

You can think what you want but that another wishful thinking completely unrealistic on your part.

I would see Belarus. Moldova and possibly Ukraine as a potential partners in that union.
Crow 138 | 8,391
16 Apr 2020 #96
And you're thinking that Germany would passively submit to that process?

What we all can against global government that is obliged to bring balance in the world. Germany and many other countries and experiments may cease to be of use in global affairs.

I would see Belarus. Moldova and possibly Ukraine as a potential partners in that union.

Your wish may become reality but, what you think, what decision maker have capacity to bring your wish become reality?
Torq 32 | 2,999
16 Apr 2020 #97
I would see Belarus.

Agree.

what decision maker have capacity to bring your wish become reality?

Let me guess - Serbia? ;)
Crow 138 | 8,391
16 Apr 2020 #98
We are all just merely a tool. A tool, if there is capacity. And final aim is to have balance in Multi-Polar world.
Ironside 49 | 10,174
17 Apr 2020 #99
. A tool,

yes you are ...
Crow 138 | 8,391
17 Apr 2020 #100
But of course. We are all tool, if there is potential in us. Are you tool to your female or you aren`t? Are you? Trick is to extract something for yourself while serve as tool.

And why would Poland complaint? Belgrade will profit and Warsaw, too. It was so even during amber trade route, before some strangers from the west of Europe came and robbed us both. Orban making sure that Budapest also profit. No problem, there is enough for him, too. For some others, too. For some. What is the problem then?

Krzysztof Krawczyk & Goran Bregovic - Moj przyjacielu [Official Music Video]

> youtube.com/watch?v=g0kgw2kkFnM


Let us control the game. Let cards role on the table. Like heads. As long as those aren`t our heads. Never again.
Vlad1234 16 | 604
18 May 2020 #101
Moved from

It's an English idiom which means "I wasn't being serious". It's a c*nt of a language, I know; I don't like it either.

So, which countries do you see in Intermarium? Is Ukraine one of them? I guess no one except Ukraine and possibly Belarus will agree to join a union in which Poland plays dominant role. I guess such union would be foremost helpful in the sense of economic and administrative cooperation.
Torq 32 | 2,999
18 May 2020 #102
So, which countries do you see in Intermarium?

Ideally, Intermarium would look like this (perhaps without Albania*, and we might include Greece)...

Intermarium

Of course that would be Intermarium in its final stage, I'm not saying all the countries would have to join at the same time. The core is already there - V4 (Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary).

in which Poland plays dominant role

The whole point of Intermarium is not creating an alliance in which one country would play a dominant role but to unite all those countries whose very existence and independence was threatened (and very often still is - listen for example to what this maniac Aleksandr Dugin is saying) in history by their aggressive neighbours.

Poland doesn't even dominate V4, even though her population and territory is larger than other three members put together. How would Poland dominate the entire Intermarium?

I see Intermarium either as an independent alliance in case of EU breakup - then it might cooperate closely with Germany and the EU core, or in case EU survives, as an eastern regional alliance within the EU (with time Intermarium nations should gravitate towards the EU).

* for reasons of religious/cultural cohesion - West of Intermarium is Catholic, East and South Orthodox, I'm not sure if it would be entirely reasonable to bring in an overwhelmingly Muslim country into the alliance
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527
18 May 2020 #103
How would Poland dominate the entire Intermarium?

It doesn't matter IF you do...alone because you are the biggest member will make fellow member suspicious....soon fellow member will lament a "polonization" of the Intermarium...that it only exist to support Poland and to exploit everybody else...politicians in the other member states will make it a policy to gain voters with hostility against Poland...

Welcome! :)
Torq 32 | 2,999
18 May 2020 #104
alone because you are the biggest member

Ukraine has both bigger population and territory than Poland. The Polish language would be the one with most speakers in the alliance, but we would probably adopt English as a useful and universal medium of communication anyway.

I see you share with me your own personal experience, BB. :)

politicians in the other member states will make it a policy to gain voters with hostility against Poland

If you mean PiS, then I already told you - they speak against Germany sometimes, but deep down they admire you and try to imitate the old German ordoliberalism as much as possible (whether they succeed in doing that is a completely different matter altogether ;)).
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527
18 May 2020 #105
...they speak against Germany sometimes, but deep down they admire you and try to imitate....

How could they not...we are cute! :)
Vlad1234 16 | 604
18 May 2020 #106
Ukraine has both bigger population and territory than Poland.

In terms of population it gets more on even now, with loss of Crimea. So, how exactly will Intermarium countries cooperate?
Torq 32 | 2,999
18 May 2020 #107
So, how exactly will Intermarium countries cooperate?

Economically and politically - pretty much as the EU countries do, plus a strong emphasis on common defence policy and wide military cooperation. Most of Intermarium members are already in NATO, which makes it easier as far as containing the Greater Mongolia (aka Russia) goes, but other non-NATO members would also receive safety guarantees. This, of course, implicates the need of acquiring nuclear weapons by Intermarium.

It is also worth noticing that Intermarium would have larger population and much stronger economy than GM (aka Russia).
Spike31 3 | 1,504
22 May 2020 #108
Welcome! :)

3 Seas Innitiative is perceived as a threat by Germany and Russia alike so I expect there will be a lot of opposition and obstacles to solve before it becomes a reality.

The positive thing is that it is supported not only by Poland but also by the US who seek to introduce an econo-political balance in Central Europe, especially in face of US skepticism in a continental part of Western Europe. It is important because, at this moment, Poland alone is too weak to fend off Germany and also Russia who are against this project.

Sovereignty is not some abstract idea but a sum of an economical, political, cultural, demographic and military power. And all of that is possible because of strength which let all other things in life to flourish. Geopolitical projects such as 3SI and V4 add up to strength and sovereigthy of Poland.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527
22 May 2020 #109
3 Seas Innitiative is perceived as a threat by Germany and Russia alike

Why do you say that?

I don't know about Russia but at the latest summits some of german big wigs attended (foreign minister Maas and even german president Steinmeier).

Not to mention that many of the members are quite germany-friendly (the Baltics, Croatia, Austria)....what has Germany to fear??? And Hungary for sure is quite Russia-friendly...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Seas_Initiative

The positive thing is that it is supported not only by Poland but also by the US

You shouldn't really put all your apples in a bag so fickle like the personal likes and dislikes of a president who will be gone after the next term at most. After Trump is gone the EU will still be there...just saying! :)

And to lick the boots of the US and/or China to gain their support doesn't mean sovereignity for Poland at all....you will never be an equal partner to them, contrary to your place in the EU, if you would commit to it fully!
Spike31 3 | 1,504
22 May 2020 #110
I don't know about Russia but at the latest summits some of german big wigs attended

They attended because since they cannot stunt the growth of the 3SI backed by the US at least they would like to have some say or, at bare minimum, be able to observe it from within. That's a compliment to German pragmatic mentality. Maybe to want to wait it out, in hope of political changes in the US, or to slow it down if possible? Maybe to try to push it in different direction? That's why Germany should remain an observer and not a member of 3SI.

Army has tought me one important thing: try to think like your enemy. What would you do and how would you react? And obviosly the most important question: where, and how, would you strike to deal your enemy the maximum amount of damage with the least amount of losses on your side.

So I often put myself in my adversory shous to be able to understand the situation better.

OK, I'm not saying that Germany is our enemy per se, but both our countries have different political and economical interests and geopolitical goals which are incompatible, especially in the long run. So the clash of interests is inevitable and long as Poland will pursue its ambitious goals.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527
22 May 2020 #111
They attended because since they cannot stunt the growth of the 3SI

And if nobody had showed up you would point it out as a sure sign of Germany's "fear"!

Right now anything Germany does or does not is a "proof" in your mind of Germany's fear or ignorance or hostility against Poland, isn't it....

That's why Germany should remain an observer and not a member of 3SI.

There is no need for Germany to be a member....the 3SI members are also members of the EU after all.

Maybe to try to push it in different direction?

What is it's direction now?

Army has tought me one important thing: try to think like your enemy.

???

....but both our countries have different political and economical interests and geopolitical goals which are incompatible,....

Political freedom, military security, economical stability.....yeah....totally incompatible!
Spike31 3 | 1,504
22 May 2020 #112
Right now anything Germany does or does not is a "proof" in your mind of Germany's fear or ignorance or hostility against Poland, isn't it....

Because I believe that Germany didn't gave up on its strategic goals but simply changed the tools in order to achieve it in more peaceful way. There's nothing wrong with that - when looking at it from a German perspective - but it's simply against the best interest of Poland. That's why Poland should neutralize that threat and pursue its own strategic goals which are not compatible, and on many level opposite, German long term goals.

Political freedom, military security, economical stability.....yeah....totally incompatible!

Yes. Because for each country it means something different. For Germany "economical stability" means having Central European workforce producing components for German industry. And for Poland economical stability has completely different meaning.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527
22 May 2020 #113
but it's simply against the best interest of Poland.

What exactly IS the best interest of Poland? And how do you define the best interest of Germany? And I mean the end goal, the long term goal!

And for Poland economical stability has completely different meaning.

What exactly?

Not to mention the other member of the 3SI? How do you plan to direct them to help to fulfill Polands end goal? If that's really so different to Germany's and every others...
Torq 32 | 2,999
22 May 2020 #114
@Spike

Since 1989 Germany has been nothing but consistently friendly and supportive towards Poland. So maybe (just maybe) now, 30 years after the fall of communism, would be a good time to give up the old grudges and prejudices?
Spike31 3 | 1,504
22 May 2020 #115
It doesn't have much to do with "old grudges" and a lot to do with future politico-economic subjugation or a full independence of Poland.

What exactly IS the best interest of Poland?

What exactly?

In economic terms: to have a fully developed economy - and industrial capability - which is competitive and not complimentary to German economy. An economy in which the most important braches ie. like heavy industry, banking, media, energy proividers are controlled by Polish private capital
Torq 32 | 2,999
22 May 2020 #116
which is competitive not complimentary

There might be a problem with that - when our economy is complimentary to Germany's, it means that we produce things that Germany needs and is willing to buy from us. If we switch into "competitive" mode, whom are we going to sell it to? Germans wouldn't want to buy from their direct competition, and you surely realise that most of our exports goes to Germany?

The entire idea of EU, as an ever closer cooperating union of countries, is for the economies to be complimentary to one another instead of having 27 closed, "self-sufficient", eternally competing rivals.

like heavy industry, banking, media, energy proividers are controlled by Polish private capital

If you had written "by Polish state", then I might hesitantly agree. But by "Polish private capital"? What makes a Janusz in white socks, worried only about his own profit, better than Hans who is also only worried about his own profit?
Spike31 3 | 1,504
22 May 2020 #117
it means that we produce things that Germany needs and is willing to buy from us.

It also mean two other important things which are major disadvantages for Poland:

first: we would be completely reliant on German economy and industry and in turn we would not have much control over our own economy.

second: as a suppliers of components we would receive much less income that Germany does for shipping a final products which offers the biggest profit margins.

instead of having 27 closed, "self-sufficient"

No country is self-sufficient but there's a huge difference in what position one occupy in a global supply chain. It is also worth competing over some highly competitive niches which offer biggest profit margins.

If you had written "by Polish state", then I might hesitantly agree

The state is not as effective as a private owner when it comes to managing companies. Entrepreneurs are much better managers than state beaurocrats. Good example is a privately owned WB Electronics* which produce innovative systems for Polish army.

Obviously, just like in the US, the most important players in strategic sectors like energy and military industry have to comply with state rules and cannot make decisions which would stand against the best interest of Poland.

wbgroup.pl/en/wb-electronics/
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527
22 May 2020 #118
.....which is competitive and not complimentary to German economy.

Erm....

Which country on Earth develops it's economy "complimentary" to another country? And which one demands that???

are controlled by Polish private capital

Good luck with that!

Right now big parts of the german industry is concerned about being bought out by chinese capital....but I guess you have no problems with that?

Germans wouldn't want to buy from their direct competition,

We buy chinese! Even if it's crap, just because it's cheaper.....

Spike, I have to wonder about your view of Germany...I fear it's not very realistic at all!
Spike31 3 | 1,504
22 May 2020 #119
And I believe that your personal view and the view of German big industry are also different.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527
22 May 2020 #120
and in turn we would not have much control over our own economy.

Poland should go into high-green-tech and leave old stinkers like coal behind.....there lies a golden future.

Actually Germany is reliant on it's suppliers much more than the other way around....this pandemia was a good lesson for us. We depend on continous and reliable deliveries....that's not a nice feeling either!

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