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Poland and Britain started WW2


DougTales Activity: 2 / 25
Joined: 21 Feb 2012 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #1

Recently I found out that actually the governments of Poland and Britain started what became WW2. I'm pretty upset about this, so please don't take it personally if anything I write appears to be offensive to you.

Peace and friendship.

Hitler was forced to defend Germany from Polish aggression.

Facts:
- Poland wanted the war to get East Prussia, Danzig and all land east of the Oder
- They believed that in case of war there would be a revolutionary breakdown in Germany and they could easily march to Berlin
- Poland openly threatened Germany with war if it would act in the interest of the people of Danzig
- Poland unnecessarily partly mobilized their military on 23 March 1939
- Poland stole land from its German minority by land reform law 1938 and border land law 1939
- Poland put their troops close to the German-Polish border
- their operation plan was to march to Berlin, i.e. they were in attack mode, not defense mode
- Poland put an ultimatum to Danzig to allow it to be occupied by Polish police forces
- Poland fully mobilized their troops on 30 August
- all offers to ease the situation and to find a negotiated way to live together came from Berlin. NONE came from London or Warsaw.
- all offers were rejected by the Warsaw government
- more than 48 hours AFTER the Polish general mobilization Hitler gave the order push back the Polish troops close to the border because a Polish attack was imminent.

Even afterwards a full out war could have been prevented if Britain had not rejected any peaceful outcome.

scottie1113 Activity: 7 / 902
Joined: 13 Mar 2007 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #2

Your source?
JonnyM Activity: 12 / 2,634
Joined: 9 Mar 2011 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #3

- Poland wanted the war to get East Prussia, Danzig and all land east of the Oder..

These are not 'facts', just trolling. None are true.
OP DougTales Activity: 2 / 25
Joined: 21 Feb 2012 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #4

Your source?

Udo Walendy, "Truth for Germany: the guilt question of the Second World War" is quite comprehensive and lists all the sources.
teflcat Activity: 5 / 1,035
Joined: 29 May 2011 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #5

Udo Walendy,

A convicted criminal and holocaust denier.
JonnyM Activity: 12 / 2,634
Joined: 9 Mar 2011 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #6

Evidently a nut. Just posting such rubbish is trolling.
Gregrog Activity: 4 / 100
Joined: 2 Feb 2009 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #7

We were so big treat to Germany that they need to end almost in Moscow, London and Giza :D
OP DougTales Activity: 2 / 25
Joined: 21 Feb 2012 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #8

DougTales: Udo Walendy, A convicted criminal and holocaust denier.

You did not address any points. Just name calling. That's it?

And because someone is jailed as a political dissident does not make him a criminal.

BTW, did you know that many Polish Jews preferred to live in Hitler's Germany than in Rydz-Śmigły's Poland.
That should tell you something.

We were so big treat to Germany that they need to end almost in Moscow, London and Giza :D

"We never thought of making a separate peace even in the years when we were all alone and could easily have made one without serious loss to the British Empire and largely at your expense." -- Churchill letter to Joseph Stalin, 24th January, 1944

sweetliberty.org/issues/wars/witness2history/12.html

Yes, the Polish army was a threat to Germany because of the French and British guarantee which would have led to a two-front war (Poland and France).

And do you know why Germany could at first easily overrun both the Polish and then the Soviet armies?
Because both armies were in attack mode, they were not prepared for defense.
Both Poland and then the USSR wanted to attack Germany, therefore Hitler was forced to preempt them.
Harry Activity: 67 / 12,846
Joined: 2 May 2007 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #9

BTW, did you know that many Polish Jews preferred to live in Hitler's Germany than in Rydz-Śmigły's Poland.

Er, you do know that in 1938 Germany actually expelled the Polish Jews which lived in Germany, don't you?
ladykangaroo Activity: - / 165
Joined: 2 Jan 2009 ♀
 
21 Feb 2012  #10

Hitler was forced

Poor guy.
First the blood-thirsty Czechs and not even a year later Poles...
Of course he had to protect the Vaterland.
OP DougTales Activity: 2 / 25
Joined: 21 Feb 2012 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #11

These are not 'facts', just trolling. None are true.

Really none are true?
Ok, here is what I could find in neutral sources for some of my claims:

- Poland unnecessarily partly mobilized their military on 23 March 1939

https://www.google.ie/webhp?rlz=1C1IRFD_enIE417IE417&sourceid=chrome-instant&ix=sea&ie=UTF-8&ion=1#hl=en&rlz=1C1IRFD_enIE417IE417&tbm=bks&sclient=psy-ab&q=poland+mobilisation+23+march+1939

- Poland put an ultimatum to Danzig to allow it to be occupied by Polish police forces

http://www.google.ie/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=poland+ultimatum+danzig+au gust+1939&btnG=

- Poland fully mobilized their troops on 30 August

http://www.google.ie/webhp?rlz=1C1IRFD_enIE417IE417&sourceid=chrome-in stant&ix=sea&ie=UTF-8&ion=1#hl=en&rlz=1C1IRFD_enIE417IE417&tbm=bks&scl ient=psy-ab&q=poland+mobilisation+30+august+1939&pbx=1&oq=poland+mobil isation+30+august+1939&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=3&gs_upl=78528l80562l0l807 39l9l9l0l0l0l0l76l628l9l9l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=4c82 51637adca4d7&biw=1280&bih=923&ix=sea&ion=1

- all offers to ease the situation and to find a negotiated way to live together came from Berlin. NONE came from London or Warsaw.

If you don't believe that then find me only ONE peace or negotiation offer from London or Warsaw after March 1939.
I bet you cannot find ONE.
teflcat Activity: 5 / 1,035
Joined: 29 May 2011 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #12

You did not address any points.
Just name calling.
That's it?

Yes, that's it. You joined the forum today and posted a thread the content of which is to assert that Poland and Britain started WW2. You quote as a source a notorious Nazi apologist and expect people to engage in debate? I often wonder why threads such as these, specifically designed to inflame, are allowed on PF.

You are Dublin-based troll with no connection to Poland. I suggest you try one of the many neo-fascist forums out there. You won't get much attention here.
noreenb Activity: 7 / 550
Joined: 22 Apr 2009 ♀
 
21 Feb 2012  #13

first world war was strarted in order to killling the prince, who remembers his name? i don't.
Oh, I do, of course, Ferdynand.
Second, was started due to compilation of facts like ambition of the countries of certain front, philosophy of Nietzsche who wanted the race of "masters" and "the strongest" Germans to be the most important in the area of Europe and not only.
ladykangaroo Activity: - / 165
Joined: 2 Jan 2009 ♀
 
21 Feb 2012  #14

find a negotiated way to live together

Live together as in:
- we are taking over one of the main ports on your coast
and in exchange
- you will allow for a country to be split in two by exterritorial highway and rail track
- you will fight ZSRR commies with us?

Last time I checked after Beck's proposal issued in March 1939 there were no further negotiations. Unless of course Germany terminating in April the non-agression agreement from 1934 (and Fall Weiss) can be called "negotiations"... I'm sure in Walendy's mind it can.

You won't get much attention here.

He got enough from me to get one answer, but I think this may be it :D
OP DougTales Activity: 2 / 25
Joined: 21 Feb 2012 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #15

Live together as in:
- we are taking over one of the main ports on your coast

Nope, the proposal was that the port remains free for Polish ships.
And Poland had already another port in Gdynia/Gdingen.
And Danzig was a German city anyway, the people there wanted nothing to do with Poland.

and in exchange
- you will allow for a country to be split in two by exterritorial highway and rail track

Well, Germany was split in two because of the unjust situation.
And that because of a territory for which Poland had no legitimate right whatsoever (except the "might makes right").

Polish police was harassing German travelers, therefore it had to be extraterritorial.
There is nothing special about that, for instance trains between West Berlin and Western Germany through East Germany were de-facto extraterritorial.

- you will fight ZSRR commies with us?

Not fight but be strong and prevent fight.
Hitler wanted a strong Poland to be a bulwark against "the Bolshevik masses".

Last time I checked after Beck's proposal issued in March 1939 there were no further negotiations.

Of course there weren't any, because Poland explicitly forbid it. Any mention of the topic by Germany would be treated by Poland as an act of war.

Unless of course Germany terminating in April the non-agression agreement from 1934 (and Fall Weiss) can be called "negotiations"... I'm sure in Walendy's mind it can.

The non-aggression agreement was de-facto terminated by Poland already (by acting aggressively). Hitler only spelled it out.
ladykangaroo Activity: - / 165
Joined: 2 Jan 2009 ♀
 
21 Feb 2012  #16

And Danzig was a German city anyway, the people there wanted nothing to do with Poland.

That's actually my (and my family) city and the above only further proves the point that you have no idea what you are writing about.
p3undone Activity: 8 / 1,153
Joined: 12 Jan 2012 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #17

As if Hitler wouldn't have advanced either way it happened?
p3undone Activity: 8 / 1,153
Joined: 12 Jan 2012 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #19

I wholeheartedly agree,thanks for the source
Grzegorz_ Activity: 52 / 6,248
Joined: 16 Nov 2006 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #20

Recently I found out that actually the governments of Poland and Britain started what became WW2.

Congrats.
JonnyM Activity: 12 / 2,634
Joined: 9 Mar 2011 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #21

f you don't believe that then find me only ONE peace or negotiation offer from London or Warsaw after March 1939.
I bet you cannot find ONE.

One pretty obvious offer. 2 September 1939 - undertake by 11 o'clock to cease hostilities.

You might also want to check out the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

You are Dublin-based troll with no connection to Poland. I suggest you try one of the many neo-fascist forums out there..

Obviously. One wonders if some people have nothing better going on in their lives.
[quote=teflcat You won't get much attention here.[/quote]
Unfortunately that is precisely what he is getting. Though naturally very negatively. A kind of masochism really.
OP DougTales Activity: 2 / 25
Joined: 21 Feb 2012 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #22

DougTales: And Danzig was a German city anyway, the people there wanted nothing to do with Poland.

That's actually my (and my family) city and the above only further proves the point that you have no idea what you are writing about.


Did your family live there before 1945?
If yes, isn't it true that non-Germans were a tiny tiny minority there?
ladykangaroo Activity: - / 165
Joined: 2 Jan 2009 ♀
 
21 Feb 2012  #23

Yes. For centuries, to be precise.

and

No.
(unless of course you want to follow old German rule that once you consider someone German on paper they are German - but even then you can hardly use the term "minority", not to even mention "tiny, tiny").

You know nothing about the region (Kashubia, FYI), people living there, their attitudes, mentality and history and yet you feel entitled to write some far fetched interpretations. I really don't feel obliged to answer any other of your questions here.
OP DougTales Activity: 2 / 25
Joined: 21 Feb 2012 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #24

From above link:

"Furthermore, even a narrow German corridor through Polish Corridor would mean putting Polish people under German rule"

Absurd. Are Switzerland, Austria or Hungary under German rule because they have no access to the sea?
What about the mistreated 2 or so million Germans that were under Polish rule. Not to speak of the Belarussians and Ukrainians.

"In the meeting at the Reichschancellery on 23 May 1939, Hitler made it quite clear, and so stated, that Danzig had nothing to do with the real Polish question. "I have to deal with Poland because I want lebensraum in the East"- that is the effect of Hitler's words at that time: that Danzig was merely an excuse."

That "document" about the meeting in the Reichschancellery on 23 May 1939, the so-called "Schmundt-Protokoll" is a fraud by the Allies (ALL LIES they should better be called). This piece of paper was created by the Allies for the tribunal in Nuremberg. It states "Headmatter. Only By Officer" but it does not have letterhead, date, no 'secret' sign and was not entered into the secret journal as it should be if it were a "Headmatter. Only By Officer".

No, the war was started because the Polish army were fully mobilized and standing on the German borders, ready to attack together with France.

DougTales: If you don't believe that then find me only ONE peace or negotiation offer from London or Warsaw after March 1939.
I bet you cannot find ONE.

One pretty obvious offer. 2 September 1939 - undertake by 11 o'clock to cease hostilities.

Source please.
Who offered it?
The Polish ambassador? Britain?

You might also want to check out the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

That pact was made to isolate Poland, to persuade Beck and Rydz-Śmigły to accept some rationality. Didn't work though.

...

Superfluous namecalling disposed.

ladykangaroo
Poland and Britain started WW2

I was not talking about Pomerelia or Kashubia. I was just referring to Danzig, and in Danzig the overwhelming majority of the people wanted nothing to do with Poland.
Harry Activity: 67 / 12,846
Joined: 2 May 2007 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #25

Source please.
Who offered it?

The Polish ambassador? Britain?

He said the British ambassador to Berlin had handed a final note to the German government this morning saying unless it announced plans to withdraw from Poland by 1100, a state of war would exist between the two countries.

news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/3/newsid_3493000/3493279.stm
OP DougTales Activity: 2 / 25
Joined: 21 Feb 2012 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #26

He said the British ambassador to Berlin had handed a final note to the German government this morning saying unless it announced plans to withdraw from Poland by 1100, a state of war would exist between the two countries.

That is not a peace offer. That is an ultimatum.
An unacceptable ultimatum. Only the German army should retreat but not the Polish one? Totally unacceptable double-standard.

No, it the Brits had wanted peace they would have pressured the Polish government to accept the extremely modest German proposals.
Harry Activity: 67 / 12,846
Joined: 2 May 2007 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #27

Only the German army should retreat but not the Polish one? Totally unacceptable double-standard.

Could you perhaps go into detail about the parts of Germany which the Polish army was occupying? Apart, of course, from Sender Gleiwitz.
ladykangaroo Activity: - / 165
Joined: 2 Jan 2009 ♀
 
21 Feb 2012  #28

in Danzig the overwhelming majority of the people wanted nothing to do with Poland.

Lie. Simple as that: lie. Repeating this will not make it true :)

As for Kashubia - I highly recommed checking how far from the Old Town did the Freie Stadt Danzig go :D
irishguy11 Activity: 7 / 157
Joined: 3 Sep 2011 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #29

I hate people that try to stir the **** because they have access to the internet.

history1900s.about.com/od/worldwarii/a/wwiistarts.htm

I'am surprised that he has not gone into detail on the payments that Germany was forced to make after both wars.
OP DougTales Activity: 2 / 25
Joined: 21 Feb 2012 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #30

DougTales: Only the German army should retreat but not the Polish one? Totally unacceptable double-standard.

Could you perhaps go into detail about the parts of Germany which the Polish army was occupying?

We were talking about the British ultimatum. Usually when there is an outbreak of hostilities the first step is a ceasefire. The retreat comes after a negotiated solution. The war broke out because of a threatening fully mobilized Polish army on the German borders. Nothing had changed so far.

Either way, the Polish government was confident that they could handle the "weak huns".

So, you agree to the claim that there never was a peace or negotiation (or later a ceasefire) offer from either London or Warsaw after March 1939?

Apart, of course, from Sender Gleiwitz.

It is questionable if there ever was an incident at the Sender Gleiwitz. And if there was an incident, who initiated it. Was it a rogue SS action or did Naujocks invent the story when he defected in 1944?

Anyway, neither Hitler nor another NS bigwig ever mentioned it.




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