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Poland and Britain started WW2

OP DougTales 2 | 25    
29 Apr 2012  #61

Here is more about the British refusal to make peace:

The British government did not care at all about Poland. Poland could have been restored to prewar borders had the British not refused Hitler's peace offers. All the UK government at the time wanted was to destroy Germany - not just the Nazis but Germany itself.

From the article:
"We have - as Vansittart continued - "enough of offers from White Auer, Dahlerus, Goerdeler and his associates" (see document). "

irishguy11 7 | 157    
29 Apr 2012  #62

What is your connection to Poland? Next you will be saying that Ireland tried to invade England during the war.

Why don't you stop talking bullshit and go to join a nazi party.
szarlotka 8 | 2,210    
29 Apr 2012  #63

Next you will be saying that Ireland tried to invade England during the war.

Which of course is ludicrous. Mind you Ireland does invade England every year for the Cheltenham Festival;) As invasions go it's a great party!
isthatu2 4 | 2,712    
30 Apr 2012  #64

As invasions go it's a great party!

Of you were there late 90s early 00s,me to,crazy stuff,never has a last name got me so many drinks :)

Next you will be saying that Ireland tried to invade England during the war.

Liam Devlin did, came to kidnapp the PM with some Jerries,theyd have got away with it too if it hadnt been for JR Ewing !
Gruffi_Gummi - | 106    
30 Apr 2012  #65

"Poland and Britain started WW2", murdered the Jews, raided Pearl Harbor, and finally helped the Nazis launch their Moon rockets from the secret Antarctic base. Yeah, we rule!
17 Aug 2016  #66

if Britain and france had not told Poland they would back them up, Poland would have continued to negotiate with Germany, and possibly avoid conflict.
Jardinero 1 | 380    
19 Aug 2016  #67

Perhaps, but let's not forget the effect of huge propaganda in Poland before the war, where people were made to believe that the Reich was really not as strong as they seem, and Poland stronger than in reality. I remember reading S. Lem's recollections of that period. Either case, I personally believe there was a serious case of wishful thinking versus betting on reality, i.e. everyone's out for themselves when the **** hits the fan...
Crow 135 | 5,885    
19 Aug 2016  #68

No, Poland didn`t. Poland and other Slavs were main target. But Britain, i am sure about it, Britain or to say Britain`t ruling Anglo elite was inspiration of WWII. Same goes for USA. Their ruling establishments and Germany were those to put world and their own people to the sword. Rest was game.
Sajuuk Khar    
16 Jan 2017  #69

You disagree with his point? Enjoy.
16 Jan 2017  #70

Some of his statements are true but other false :
Poland did prepare a defensive war against Germany long before the war happens :

Poland wanted the war to get East Prussia, Danzig and all land east of the Oder

Poland did not have the means to oppose Germany.
That s why all Polish ships were sent to United Kingdom before WW2.
Poland knew their fleets would be destroyed at the start of the war so they had better chance to do damage abroad with UK.

Hitler provokes war at the polish-german border. Hitler needed a casus belli to start the war with false flag operation :
Lyzko 15 | 3,595    
16 Jan 2017  #71

In and of itself, the premise of the present thread is incorrect. If what is meant is that foreign instigation into Hitler's saber rattling finally induced the Germans into war, there is for sure some degree of truth, but certainly not as expressed by our more "conservative" posters. Some would have us believe the old self-pity that it was the Jews aka outsiders, perhaps even the US and the Versailles Treaty which all together were responsible for the rise of Hitler, and that the Germans were victims:-)

The latter argument is bull, because the roots of WWII go back further even than the start of the 20th century!
5 Jul 2017  #72

My mother lived in Beuthen. They frequently crossed over to Poland as did the Poles who worked in the German coal mines.
Polish extremist groups would come across the border and kill Germans. They'd poke their eyes out and cut their noses off, etc.

Immediately prior to the start of the war, the Polish didn't allow Germans to see the border area. The tram windows were covered as they crossed the border. That was the first time they realised that something was up.

There was definitely Polish aggravation. I suspect they thought that as soon as Hitler made his move, the Brits would immediately back them and they'd walk it.

To paint Hitler as an innocent is absurd. Everyone guessed his motives and history proves him to be a tyrant.

However it is equally erroneous to think that the Poles did nothing to aggravate the situation, or that they didn't provoke the situation. Those near the border were sick of it, so Polish aggravation probably brought the war forward a few months and gave Hitler the necessary backing of his own people.
dolnoslask 1 | 1,140    
5 Jul 2017  #73

kill Germans. They'd poke their eyes out and cut their noses off, etc.

Your mum might have bought into the nazi propoganda at the time (seee link below) or she might have been a nazi herself , it was amazing after the war how few germans would admit their allegiance to the nazi party.

Skip to the section marked Poles

My father killed Germans he never said that he poked any eyes out at the time, my grandfather never poked eyes out when he was fighting the bolsheviks, poking eyes out is not a Polish thing.

But thats history, you youngsters should move on and build a better world,focus on the positives don;t look back at bad history unless it is to learn from the mistakes.
Crow 135 | 5,885    
5 Jul 2017  #74

Yes. All started with a lot of British tears for Poland.
3 Aug 2017  #75

Though the mistreatment of ethnic Germans was something that is based in fact (though the numbers I hear some "revisionists" declare are ridiculous, one of which being that there were 40,000 Germans that were killed in Silesia not long before Hitler invaded. No graves have ever been found to indicate numbers anywhere close to that) the OP ignores the fact that the invasion of Poland was largely used as a springboard to begin Operation Barbarossa, which is a rather ignoble reason to invade a country as a whole, particularly when you claim it's for "ethnic Germans." Whilst two birds with one stone were indeed killed if such a thing is true, it doesn't look as "isolated" as one might try and make it seem, were said person just focusing on the invasion and nothing else.

"Noble" as those reasons might have been, the apparently sacrosanct reasons for the invasion of Poland did NOTHING to justify the Nazi's subsequent actions in the country after the occupation (and it also does little to justify Hitler's actions before it in Germany proper). That quote from an earlier page about how the British weren't offering peace at 11 o'clock, but an ultimatum? Nice job being so pedantic. Of COURSE it was an ultimatum, they and France declared war right afterwards! There's absolutely no denial of this being an ultimatum from any officials, it was never a diplomatic offering. And of course Britain wasn't going to directly order Poland (their ally, let's remember, obviously an ally will receive favourable treatment, much like how Hitler supported the ridiculousness of Italy and Japan during the war) to pull back its weaker military FROM ITS OWN LAND. If you're suggesting these things from some childish "got-you!" presupposition that the Poles would actually invade Germany in response, everyone and their grandma knows Germany could have repelled them with ease (the Polish had almost no armour and a small navy, only their air force was able to decently match the Luftwaffe and even then, they simply weren't as effective overall). Also, posturing by the Poles over Danzig, East Prussia and the land beyond the Oder doesn't actually mean an invasion is justified, ESPECIALLY when you consider what the Nazis did to occupied Poland afterwards, ESPECIALLY when you consider Hitler's actions in Europe once Poland WAS occupied and ESPECIALLY when you consider what amazingly thin ice Hitler was already on, by 1939 (which is another topic entirely).

Let us also remember that the concept of "Lebensraum" was very much something Hitler still wanted to enact and had held these views since at least the 1920's. Poland was included in Lebensraum, so if Poles really were the vicious monsters revisionists claim they were that just had to be invaded through false flags, well, it's convenient how such a thing happened to fulfill tenets of this very un-unique 20th century fascist ideologue (Mussolini possessed a very similar ideology, but with the Mediterranean and North Africa).

I'm not denying that Britain comes across as awfully cavalier in its treatment towards Hitler (a man who nobody had an obligation to believe at face value either way, considering his already highly shady and manipulative past), but let's actually remember what ended up occurring in Poland alone during WWII. From the pincer-invasion of Poland by Stalin and Hitler (evidence of Hitler's allegedly absent scheming side) and the usage of Poland as the starting point into launching Operation Barbarossa; ethnic Poles, their resources and land little more than collateral damage, to Intelligenzaktion, to the Katyn Massacre & the Palmiry Massacre (the former at the hands of Soviets, facilitated by Germany's allowance of their invasion), to ghettos such as the Kraków Ghetto, Łódź Ghetto, the heinous Warsaw Ghetto and others, to the rampancy of Oskar Dirlewanger and his brigade of chiefly Ukrainian criminals, many of which were convicted murderers and rapists (Dirlewanger was not only never dishonourably discharged for his crimes, but was actually given ACCOLADES by Himmler & Heinz Reinefarth), the general importation of many of Europe's Jews into Poland (which, from a Nazi's perspective, would be a great declaration of dishonour upon the land), Aktion T4, the building of different camps to hold nationals from all over Europe, including the three Auschwitz camps, Auschwitz of course practically being the home for men like Dr Josef Mengele; "Angel of Death", and the subsequent and insanely costly repatriation process just to find out where many of the locked up people were even from and many, MANY other anecdotal atrocities that I'm sure are lost to time.

I do not deny the screw-ups of the Allies, I do not deny the way that many Allies treated the innocent themselves and I ESPECIALLY do not deny the absolute butchery of men like Joseph Stalin, who, in many ways, was worse than our own meth-addicted Adolf Hitler. But for one man to cause so much bloodshed in the face of just over two decades, and to then claim that OTHERS were the reason for his warmongering? To call it laughable is generous.
Ironside 43 | 8,187    
3 Aug 2017  #76

Though the mistreatment of ethnic Germans

Boo, what are you talking about? Are you an apologist for the German Nazi regime?
3 Aug 2017  #77

Are you an apologist for the German Nazi regime?

Haha, yes, I'm one of their biggest apologists. In truth, even this I'm highly sceptical of, as, at least to my knowledge, there has never been any concrete numbers of just how many Germans were allegedly killed at the hands of random Poles; or indeed that these attacks even took place. It's highly anecdotal and is a "factoid" chiefly circulated by people with zero credibility that only ever look at WWII through a niche, biased, often Jew-hating worldview, such as Udo Walendy, Deanna Spingola and others. It doesn't help that these people are attracted to one another like moths to a flame, so they end up simply sourcing one another, rather than actually sourcing largely unbiased, credible historians (and they are out there). I've asked many of the people who believe these things for trustworthy, verifiable sources and they provide none.

Incidentally, Polish mobilisation of its military does not necessitate invasion. Polish expansion of its military does not necessitate invasion (particularly when everybody else was violating the treaty of Versailles to do it by this point, why shouldn't have Poland expanded?) and unless I'm given some credible evidence that things like the Glewitz Incident were faked and that semi-staged actions like the Bromberg Massacre weren't just used to "justify" invasion (the Bromberg Massacre being the only clearcut example I know of where Poles actually killed ethnic Germans, though it matters less considering this was AFTER Germany invaded and most of them were Selbstschutz aggressors, anyway), I'll continue to believe what I believe.

I'm actually highly curious as to just how empowering the claims are that the Polish government was bolstering their people with propaganda that they could take Germany in war, that they could own Danzig, own East Prussia, etc. It seems somewhat radical that the Polish government would focus on pointless aggression and border conflicts with Germany, when Poland originally considered the Soviet Union to be the much larger threat. It also seems particularly silly to rile up aggressive instincts in people, when it's been proven that the government was preparing for defensive wars with Germany and the Soviets. Did the government suddenly have a change of heart when 1939 came? When did this propaganda even start? It couldn't have been at least until before 1934 or after 1938, as Poland and Germany had a non-aggression pact in these years. Or were they doing it despite this pact as many revisionists claim? There are many factors to consider, here. Others in this thread have mentioned the propaganda did exist and I'm willing to buy that it did despite the relative lack of info on it (almost everyone in this period was using propaganda, after all); I'm simply questioning how intense it was, when it was and could it have really had such an aggressive effect on Polish minds. Was it more intense than the public brainwashing of Goebbels? It appears quite difficult to even find anecdotes about it. I believe if there was any Polish aggression against ethnic Germans, it was done by an extreme minority and did not constitute invasion by either Germany or the Soviets, particularly when the invasion ended up turning the country into an abattoir.

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