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Poland and Britain started WW2


Harry Activity: 67 / 12,897
Joined: 2 May 2007 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #31

We were talking about the British ultimatum. Usually when there is an outbreak of hostilities the first step is a ceasefire. The retreat comes after a negotiated solution.

So you mean, no you cannot tell us which parts of Germany the Polish army should have retreated from. OK.

The war broke out because of a threatening fully mobilized Polish army on the German borders.

Really? So, given that the Polish army was not full mobilised until 30 August, as you told us here, (although I note that one of the source on that page, this one, actually says that the full mobilisation was announced on 30 August, which does rather suggest that you have been lying about what the sources say), why had Hitler decided to invade at 4.25 on 26 August? That fact is confirmed by the fact that one of the initial invasion units didn't get the cancellation order and went ahead with their mission on 25/26 August. Read about that here. Oops, just nailed yourself there.

t is questionable if there ever was an incident at the Sender Gleiwitz. And if there was an incident, who initiated it. Was it a rogue SS action or did Naujocks invent the story when he defected in 1944?

Would be impressive if he did invent it in 1944, given that US correspondents were invited to the site the very next day
source:
books.google.ie/books?id=PzfQSlTJTXkC&pg=PA100

You're not really very good at re-inventing history, are you?

OP DougTales Activity: 2 / 25
Joined: 21 Feb 2012 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #32

DougTales: in Danzig the overwhelming majority of the people wanted nothing to do with Poland.

Lie. Simple as that: lie. Repeating this will not make it true :)

The official census 1923 found that 95% of the city were Germans. The election put a majority of national socialists in the local parliament, so the Senat of Danzig was headed by NS personnel.

Are you talking about the province of Pomerelia or the "Free" City of Danzig?
GabiDaHun Activity: 2 / 157
Joined: 18 Jan 2012 ♀
 
21 Feb 2012  #33

I'm quite amazed that as this is THE most studied period in modern history, no respected historian has yet discovered this bombshell.

Has the OP considered a career at Oxford University?
OP DougTales Activity: 2 / 25
Joined: 21 Feb 2012 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #34

I hate people that try to stir the **** because they have access to the internet.

history1900s.about.com/od/worldwarii/a/wwiistarts.htm

That link provides a funny bonmot:

"After having gained both Austria and Czechoslovakia, Hitler was confident that he could again move east, this time acquiring Poland without having to fight Britain or France."

Hahaha, acquiring Poland? If Hitler would have wanted war he would have made unreasonable demands, such as "give Posen back" or some such. It would still have been reasonable to demand all lands near the border from Poland where Germans were the majority, or demand eastern upper Silesia. He did nothing of that. He even could wait until the Danzig problem resolves itself over time.

However, he could not sit idle when there is an alliance between France, UK and Poland and the aggressive Polish state has a fully mobilized army on the borders. Even then he waited more than 48 hours before he gave the order to move the Polish army away from the borders.

I'm quite amazed that as this is THE most studied period in modern history, no respected historian has yet discovered this bombshell.

What about Dr. David L.Hoggan and his book "The forced war"?

How come you are amazed? This topic is not a neutral topic but a VERY emotional one. Also the power of the Allies over Germany is at stake. OF COURSE the establishment court historians do not do their job properly, because if they would they would get into trouble.
Harry Activity: 67 / 12,897
Joined: 2 May 2007 ♂
 
21 Feb 2012  #35

However, he could not sit idle when there is an alliance between France, UK and Poland and the aggressive Polish state has a fully mobilized army on the borders. Even then he waited more than 48 hours before he gave the order to move the Polish army away from the borders.

I note that you are pointedly ignoring the problem presented to your theory by the Jabłonków Incident. This shows that you know the decision to attack Poland had been taken before the Polish army mobilised. Looks like you lie has been well and truly exposed and done so by your own information. Sure sucks to be you.
Marek11111 Activity: 9 / 828
Joined: 6 Aug 2009 ♂
 
22 Feb 2012  #36

Hitler was forced to defend Germany from Polish aggression.

Yes Hitler just shoot back for the radio station attack and Russians had to protect Polish minority from Poles on Sept. 17 1939 then Hitler created ghettos to protect Jews from Polish concentration camps.
scottie1113 Activity: 7 / 902
Joined: 13 Mar 2007 ♂
 
22 Feb 2012  #37

Because both armies were in attack mode, they were not prepared for defense.

You obviously have no knowledge of military tactics, nor do you have any of history. I would say delusional, but here I think idiot troll would be more appropriate,. Keep posting. I enjoy reading your ignorant "facts".
BBman Activity: - / 359
Joined: 4 Jan 2011 ♂
 
22 Feb 2012  #38

Hitler was forced to defend Germany from Polish aggression.

Stopped reading at this point. Poland was no threat to Germany.
/thread
modafinil Activity: - / 421
Joined: 28 Jun 2011 ♂
 
22 Feb 2012  #39

Poland and Lithuania were the corridor to Russia. There was sh1t-stirring in Germany regarding Poles persecuting Auslandsdeutsche before the invasion.
p3undone Activity: 8 / 1,153
Joined: 12 Jan 2012 ♂
 
22 Feb 2012  #40

Ahh so chamberlain was really trying to appease Poland all that time.Gee I never realized that the Polish war machine posed such a threat.Thanks for schooling me.I guess even the German Historians missed that one.Let me guess,Japan attacked Pearl Harbor to keep us tied up so we couldn't help stop the Polish menace.lol
Marek11111 Activity: 9 / 828
Joined: 6 Aug 2009 ♂
 
22 Feb 2012  #41

,Japan attacked Pearl Harbor to keep us tied up so we couldn't help stop the Polish menace.

the Poles attacked Pearl Harbor and blame it on peace loving Japanesese.
p3undone Activity: 8 / 1,153
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22 Feb 2012  #42

LMAO,good one
Richard Startup Activity: - / 1
Joined: 2 Mar 2012 ♂
 
2 Mar 2012  #43

Fact that Nazi Germany wanted to gain territory and to destroy everything that was not of aerian race. Germany never declared war on Britain, but France and Britain declared war on Germany for attacking Poland. The Soviets also attacked Poland from the East because of their pact with Germany.

? If Jerry had delayed their master plan for world domination by 4 years those that are left would be spricht the Deutsche by now!
Marek11111 Activity: 9 / 828
Joined: 6 Aug 2009 ♂
 
4 Mar 2012  #44

no you are wrong, Germany had to do it their war machine technology could be outdated in 4 years.
OP DougTales Activity: 2 / 25
Joined: 21 Feb 2012 ♂
 
18 Mar 2012  #45

I note that you are pointedly ignoring the problem presented to your theory by the Jabłonków Incident (full details here). This shows that you know the decision to attack Poland had been taken before the Polish army mobilised.

I don't ignore that. There was an order issued on 23 August to begin attack on 26 August. This was an obvious attempt to force Poland and Britain to negotiate.

The Ostwall (fortifications on the eastern German border) was continued to be built until 1940
ww2museums.com/article/5393/Ostwall---Panzerwerk-A8-West.htm

If Hitler had wanted to conquer Poland there would have been no need to start building fortifications on the eastern borders (started 1934, continued until 1940).

Hitler knew that many inside the German military were against him so there was a high probability that information about the attack order would be transmitted to the British. The goal was to shock Britain and Poland enough for serious negotiations. The same goal was supposed to be reached by the German-Soviet Pact.

However, neither Poland nor Britain tried anything to prevent the war.

Instead, Poland mobilises its army, forcing a German preemptive strike because Poland and France (bound by military assistance treaty with Poland and Britain) together were by far stronger than the Germans.
gumishu Activity: 10 / 4,185
Joined: 6 Apr 2009 ♂
 
18 Mar 2012  #46

Poland fully mobilized their troops on 30 August

if you are an agressive side you don;t fully mobilize on the day before the planned invasion - no? - Germans were mobilizing weeks before the September the1st and they even planned to strike earlier on 26th of August - the only reason they didn't was because the Polish-British treaty in case of war with Germany was signed that mandated Great Britain to declare war on Germany in case it attacks Poland - Hitler hestitated for a moment and thats why the attack was postponed (btw because of lack of coordination some sabotage actions of German Fifth Column took place on the 26th of August as planned

If Hitler had wanted to conquer Poland there would have been no need to start building fortifications on the eastern borders (started 1934, continued until 1940).

having your borders fortified doen't immediately prove defensive stance - one scenario Hitler must have considered was attacking France frist - in this case he needed some defence on his eastern borders - though Poland was on rather good terms with Germany in the years 1937-38 up to the early 1939 and Hitler was trying to make Poland his official ally and attack Soviet Russia together Poland proved not reliable to Hitler when she declared she will come back to defend France in accordance with the Franco-Polish pact

simply just having your borders fortified gives you more strategic and even tactical options
OP DougTales Activity: 2 / 25
Joined: 21 Feb 2012 ♂
 
18 Mar 2012  #47

Fact that Nazi Germany wanted to gain territory

Correction, you mean: Get back German inhabited lands by peaceful means.

Ever heard the term "self-determination"? That was supposed to be the goal of the Treaty of Versailles, only that it did not apply for the Germans in the western border regions of the 2nd Polish Republic, South Tyrol, Bohemia (Sudetenland), Memel, Danzig, Alsace-Lorraine or Eupen-Malmedy.

and to destroy everything that was not of aerian race.

LOL
So wrong. That is the story the Allies tried to pitch with the propaganda trials at Nuremberg.

Germany never declared war on Britain, but France and Britain declared war on Germany for attacking Poland.

The British-French guarantee of March 1939 actually made the war happen by fostering an unsustainable Polish stance.

The Soviets also attacked Poland from the East because of their pact with Germany.

Stalin attacked Poland and Finland because he saw the opportunity. The US media were running much more favourable stories about the USSR than about NS-Germany. Also he knew that the Polish-British-French alliance was outnumbered by far by the Red Army.

? If Jerry had delayed their master plan for world domination by 4 years those that are left would be spricht the Deutsche by now!

Nope, that part of the story is pure BS.
There was no "master plan for world domination".

The chain of events proves it. Even after the war started there were continuous requests by the German side to end the war by negotiations, all rejected by the Allies with demands of "unconditional surrender".
gumishu Activity: 10 / 4,185
Joined: 6 Apr 2009 ♂
 
18 Mar 2012  #48

Instead, Poland mobilises its army, forcing a German preemptive strike because Poland and France (bound by military assistance treaty with Poland and Britain) together were by far stronger than the Germans

the thing you completely miss is that tripartite Polish-British-French guarantees were purely defensive - it meant that if one of the countries would be attacked by Hitler all other will join the war and help the attacked

Poland could have avoided war with Germany even as late as early 1939 by joining up with Hitler - this is what Hitler wanted - up to the moment that he realized Polish rulers will be loyal to their military pact with France (from that point detailed plans for war with Poland started to be drawn)

could Poland have avoided the war in the days leading up to September - I think it is possible still - the demands Hitler gave were pretty symbolic and didn't touch any strategic Polish interests - it was actually a stick and a carrot offering by Hitler - Hitler still counted that Poland switches alliances but being a bit humilated by Poles wanted some symbolic punishment on Poles

so I guess if Poland abandoned her western allies in the early to middle August and went for reconciliation, cooperation and then an alliance with Germany there wouldn't have been war with Germany in 1939 - the World War would break out anyway - with Hitler and Poland attacking the Soviet Union jointly (most probably with the assistance of Romania and several other countries (Hungary, Slovakia perhaps Bulgaria)
Foreigner4 Activity: 12 / 1,778
Joined: 18 Nov 2007 ♂
 
18 Mar 2012  #49

Do any other sources corroborate what the op has stated?
One thing I am confident of, is without the disproportional Treaty of Versailles, WW2 would have been Europe vs Soviet Union and not what occurred.
OP DougTales Activity: 2 / 25
Joined: 21 Feb 2012 ♂
 
18 Mar 2012  #50

if you are an agressive side you don;t fully mobilize on the day before the planned invasion - no?

Why not?

- Germans were mobilizing weeks before the September the1st

Poland started to mobilise on 23 March 1939.
Poland issued an ultimatum to the Senat of Danzig on 4 August 1939 to de-facto become a part of Poland.

and they even planned to strike earlier on 26th of August - the only reason they didn't was because the Polish-British treaty in case of war with Germany was signed that mandated Great Britain to declare war on Germany in case it attacks Poland - Hitler hestitated for a moment and thats why the attack was postponed

As I explained in post #47 Hitler's actions were supposed to shock the governments of PL and UK into negotiations. If UK and PL had wanted peace they would have gotten it.
gumishu Activity: 10 / 4,185
Joined: 6 Apr 2009 ♂
 
18 Mar 2012  #51

Poland started to mobilise on 23 March 1939.

Polish army managed to mobilize around 1 Mio troops on the 1st of September - the full mobilization potential was 1,5 - 1,6 million - this is because many mobilized during the 30th mobilization never managed to reach their units

the march mobilization was just a preliminary - you can't create defensive postions without such a preliminary mobilization
OP DougTales Activity: 2 / 25
Joined: 21 Feb 2012 ♂
 
18 Mar 2012  #52

Do any other sources corroborate what the op has stated?

For which of the statements do you want additional sources?
gumishu Activity: 10 / 4,185
Joined: 6 Apr 2009 ♂
 
18 Mar 2012  #53

- their operation plan was to march to Berlin, i.e. they were in attack mode, not defense mode

this is simply rubbish - Polish troops were set along the borders for fears that if we leave these lands undefended Germans will ocuppy them without a shot and then offer peace demanding the territories in question - Polish army staff realized the power discrepancies and were not up to aggresive war
Foreigner4 Activity: 12 / 1,778
Joined: 18 Nov 2007 ♂
 
18 Mar 2012  #54

the opening post
gumishu Activity: 10 / 4,185
Joined: 6 Apr 2009 ♂
 
18 Mar 2012  #55

- more than 48 hours AFTER the Polish general mobilization Hitler gave the order push back the Polish troops close to the border because a Polish attack was imminent.

oh, my - pall - start reading some different sources too - if you believe this you are quite hmm gullible? prejudiced?

how on earth would Poland attack Germany in 1939 when they knew pretty well Germany was stronger and at a strategic advantage - what would be the purpose of it tell me? no basic logic pal
OP DougTales Activity: 2 / 25
Joined: 21 Feb 2012 ♂
 
18 Mar 2012  #56

the thing you completely miss is that tripartite Polish-British-French guarantees were purely defensive - it meant that if one of the countries would be attacked by Hitler all other will join the war and help the attacked

Not only in case of attack.

avalon.law.yale.edu/wwii/blbk19.asp

(1) The provisions of Article I will also apply in the event of any action by a European Power which clearly threatened, directly or indirectly, the independence of one of the Contracting Parties, and was of such a nature that the Party in question considered it vital to resist it with its armed forces.[/quote]

That article says basically that whenever the gov of PL (or one of the other two) "considers it vital" that its independence is threatened then they are allowed to "resist it with its armed forces."

You see what that means? Germany does not need to do anything and Poland could still claim that they "threaten their independence."

This is a blanco cheque for war.

Poland could have avoided war with Germany even as late as early 1939 by joining up with Hitler - this is what Hitler wanted - up to the moment that he realized Polish rulers will be loyal to their military pact with France (from that point detailed plans for war with Poland started to be drawn)
could Poland have avoided the war in the days leading up to September - I think it is possible still - the demands Hitler gave were pretty symbolic and didn't touch any strategic Polish interests - it was actually a stick and a carrot offering by Hitler - Hitler still counted that Poland switches alliances but being a bit humiliated by Poles wanted some symbolic punishment on Poles

so I guess if Poland abandoned her western allies in the early to middle August and went for reconciliation, cooperation and then an alliance with Germany there wouldn't have been war with Germany in 1939

Thank you, exactly that is what I am talking about.

- the World War would break out anyway - with Hitler and Poland attacking the Soviet Union jointly (most probably with the assistance of Romania and several other countries (Hungary, Slovakia perhaps Bulgaria)

Depends if in that alternate world Stalin also would have deployed massive attack forces on the western USSR borders like he did in 1941.
Maybe he wouldn't have. We will never know.
Ironside Activity: 42 / 7,691
Joined: 26 Feb 2009 ♂
 
18 Mar 2012  #57

You do realize that it is all nonsense ?
OP DougTales Activity: 2 / 25
Joined: 21 Feb 2012 ♂
 
18 Mar 2012  #58

What specifically?
Alligator Activity: - / 261
Joined: 15 Dec 2010 ♂
 
18 Mar 2012  #59

Aside from nonsence you are spewing here it is great that you decided to answer Harry, when he got suspended. Bravo! That, aside from nonsence, shows what kind of partner in conversation and person you are.
Trevek Activity: 28 / 1,708
Joined: 21 May 2008 ♂
 
19 Mar 2012  #60

Funny thing... The British Ambassador asked the Polish consulate for Gdansk if he wasn't worried about the obvious military build up in gdansk, including a few warships and a brigade of SS a few months before the outbreak of war. The Polish consulate replied "wars aren't won by a few tourists".

Bet those words were ringing in his ears a few months later...

(British government Blue Book on the outbreak of war. 1939)




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