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Poland and Britain started WW2


pawian 200 | 21,490
7 Jan 2023 #121
first democratically elected President was gunned down on the steps of an art gallery by a loon with significant support,

Yes, that was some reason, indeed. But as always with dictatorships, they degenerate and become monsters which devour everything. For example, Bereza Kartuska prison for political opponents modeled on German concentration camps.
jon357 71 | 20,799
8 Jan 2023 #122
they degenerate and become monsters w

Pilsudski of course died before that happened. His famous "I am a dictator" speech shows howeevr that if he's lived linger, he'd not have ended uo like, say, Salazar.

Bereza Kartuska

The Polish Concentration Camp? Wasn't that after his death?
pawian 200 | 21,490
8 Jan 2023 #123
Wasn't that after his death?

Nope, Piłsudski gave the green light.

The originator of the creation of the camp was Prime Minister Leon Kozłowski , and his idea was accepted by Józef Piłsudski .

That is sth I will never forgive him.
jon357 71 | 20,799
8 Jan 2023 #124
What was his motivation?
pawian 200 | 21,490
8 Jan 2023 #125
When he organised the military coup in 1926, he expected his political opponents would give up. They didn`t, what is worse - they became even more radical, partly because of the world crisis. So did Piłsudski - he decided to use dirty radical methods to deal with them. No more velvet gloves. .
Miloslaw 14 | 4,912
8 Jan 2023 #126
@pawian

You are a typical disgusting leftie.
You are all the same, in Poland, UK or USA , you start off with debasing national history, but you view history through modern perspectives....irrelevant and pointless.
pawian 200 | 21,490
8 Jan 2023 #127
You are a typical disgusting

Yes, I know, I affect rightists` badly. One of my hobbies. :):):)

debasing national history,

Debasing? Don`t use words which you don`t understand. Jon and me are simply exchanging opinions of Piłsudski who was a great man when Poland regained independence and later a nasty dictator. Do you appreciate all politicians from British history?
Miloslaw 14 | 4,912
8 Jan 2023 #128
Debasing

It's what leftards do to their own history.

Do you appreciate all politicians from British history

Why do you assume that my main historical interest is British history?
Yet again, you show your leftard bias and narrow mindedness.
It is quite laughable how ignorant you are.
Go back to posting interesting facts about Poland, something you know about.
And avoid politics, something that you clearly know nothing about!
pawian 200 | 21,490
8 Jan 2023 #129
that my main historical interest is British history?

We don`t care if it is main or minor. But certainly you know some basic facts about them and can express your opinion???

Go back to posting interesting facts about Poland,

Amasing. Didn`t you notice this thread is perfect for posting interesting facts? Like the one that Poland had a prison modeled on Nazi German concentration camp??? :):):)

politics, something that you clearly know nothing about!

Really??? :):):) And what did I just say about Piłsudski and his prison?? It is pure politics and history.
Miloslaw 14 | 4,912
8 Jan 2023 #130
@pawian

Yeah, yeah, yeah......just debase the history of your own nation and then impose a new ideology, Russians and Chinese did the same, now you lefties in the West are trying the same trick.

It won't work, in fact it may spectacularly backfire in a very unpleasant way.
Stupid children should not play with fire.
They are most likely to get burnt.
pawian 200 | 21,490
8 Jan 2023 #131
.just debase the history of your own nation

I see. So, you support concentration camps in Polish history. Sad. . :(:(:(

Stupid children should not play with fire.
They are most likely to get burnt.

Yes, that`s what Piłsudski was thinking when he gave the green light to sending his political opponents to the prison modeled on Nazi concetration camp in Dachau.

It is really shocking you are supporting this style of thinking. :(:(:(
Paulina 13 | 3,328
8 Jan 2023 #132
you start off with debasing national history, but you view history through modern perspectives....irrelevant and pointless.

I disagree. We all have the right to have a critical view of history and historical figures. Without that we wouldn't learn anything.
Miloslaw 14 | 4,912
8 Jan 2023 #133
We all have the right to have a critical view of history

We do.
But we need to see that history through the eyes of the people that lived in that time.
And not with modern perceptions and morals.
pawian 200 | 21,490
8 Jan 2023 #134
And not with modern perceptions and morals.

So, for you the concentration camp for Piłsudski`s opponents was justified???
Remember - morals do not change through centuries - either you are a decent person or lowlife. Piłsudski was both at various stages of his life.

Similarly to you. You might have been a decent man in the past but you have changed.
Paulina 13 | 3,328
8 Jan 2023 #135
But we need to see that history through the eyes of the people that lived in that time.
And not with modern perceptions and morals.

Actually, we can do both :)
Besides, there are always two sides of the coin, so if you're serious about "seeing history through the eyes of the people that lived in that time", you would have to view that history also from the side of Piłsudski's opponents and not only from the side of his supporters.
Miloslaw 14 | 4,912
8 Jan 2023 #136
So, for you the concentration camp for Piłsudski`s opponents was justified?

You tell me....were you there or are you just using 21st century morals to form your opinion?
A typical flaw in left wing liberal thought....
pawian 200 | 21,490
8 Jan 2023 #137
were you there

I wasn`t but there are hundreds of reports from the place and about the torture - physical and mental - that was used by guards on political prisoners.
Paulina 13 | 3,328
8 Jan 2023 #139
were you there or are you just using 21st century morals to form your opinion?

Sorry, Milo, but your reasoning is pretty ridiculous... Are you saying that we also shouldn't judge the Holocaust, Hitler, the Nazis, Stalin, gulags, etc. by using "21st century morals"?
pawian 200 | 21,490
8 Jan 2023 #140
Milo, I hope you won`t leave Paulina`s question unanswered..... :):):)

Are you saying that we also shouldn't judge the Holocaust, Hitler, the Nazis, Stalin, gulags

Exactly.
Milo`s reasoning is really appalling.
amiga500 3 | 1,314
8 Jan 2023 #141
Are you saying that we also shouldn't judge the Holocaust, Hitler, the Nazis, Stalin, gulags, etc. by using "21st century morals"?

Yes. We judge it by the prevailing periods of the time, where it was judged an antrocity and war crime.
Your silly way of doing things is pointless, it would mean all the greek philosophers are condemmed for being pedos for example. also muhamed but of course like all people with his head up his a** pawian will condemm his own culture and too much off a pu**y to venture outwards and get a smack.

People who condemm pilsudski are traitors and will be dealth with after the next election
Velund 1 | 672
9 Jan 2023 #142
People who condemm pilsudski are traitors and will be dealth with after the next election

I've always been fascinated by Western versions of "democracy." And especially expats eager to turn their homeland into a concentration camp, while being at a respectable distance and risking nothing. ;)
amiga500 3 | 1,314
9 Jan 2023 #143
When even Velund is defending pawian, and supporting his denunciation of pilsudski, shows how much of a traitor to poland he is. Why concentration camp when a lamp post is so much more efficient?
Paulina 13 | 3,328
9 Jan 2023 #144
@amiga500, sorry, but most of your comment #141 doesn't make much sense, so I don't even know how to answer it.

Yes. We judge it by the prevailing periods of the time, where it was judged an antrocity and war crime.

No, we judge it both ways - from the perspective of our times and from the perspective of those times (or, rather, we may acknowledge the perspective of those times, while still holding our judgement from our modern perspective).

for being pedos for example. also muhamed

Well, if he f*cked a 9-year-old then he was a pedo - that's a fact. And I don't think there were ever times in the recorded history of humankind when having sex with a 9-year-old child was considered normal by the majority of the society. Besides, there are still places in this world where kids are being married off and even very young girls are forced to have sex with their husbands, so what times have to do with it?

People who condemm pilsudski are traitors

Don't be ridiculous. You sound like some crazy RuSSian nationalist who can't take the criticism of the "holy" Soviet Army, etc.
Pawian acknowledges both the positive and the negative contribution of Piłsudski to Polish history. If you can't do both then you're a mental, intelectual and moral simpleton, imho.
Paulina 13 | 3,328
9 Jan 2023 #145
Also:

You are a typical disgusting leftie.

This is pretty funny (and ironic) in a way that right-wingers and nationalists are defending Piłsudski, Piłsudski's May Coup and his persecution of political opponents lol After all, Piłsudski was a member and a leader of the Polish Socialist Party and the May Coup overthrew a right-wing government :)))

cambridge.org/core/journals/slavic-review/article/abs/military-background-of-pilsudskis-coup-detat/38AAB58D3C1E6FA5FF7832FDB0C6AAFA

"Józef Piłsudski, at the head of certain military units devoted to his person and with the enthusiastic approval of the political and social forces of the Polish Left, staged a successful coup d'etat against the Polish parliamentary system dominated since the elections of November, 1922, by an agglomeration of Right-Center political parties."

LOL!
GefreiterKania 25 | 1,187
9 Jan 2023 #146
So did Piłsudski - he decided to use dirty radical methods to deal with them. No more velvet gloves.

Yes, he wanted to eliminate his political opponents like rabid dogs. So he was a bit like you in this regard! ;) Also, he was a socialist at heart, so there's probably his portrait hanging somewhere in your house, isn't there? :)

Anyways, Piłsudski will always be remembered for his role in the independence struggle and the Battle of Warsaw. In the future Bereza Kartuska and the May Coup will be discussed only by historians specializing in the period.
pawian 200 | 21,490
9 Jan 2023 #147
Piłsudski will always be remembered for his role in the independence struggle and the Battle of Warsaw

Only by maniacs like you. hahahaha Normal people perceive Piłsudski in both aspects - the heroic leader and a brutal dictator. Not as brutal as Hitler or Stalin but still. Ha!

right-wingers and nationalists are defending Piłsudski, P

Yes. It is even funnier when semi- leftie wingers like amiga are defending him.
Alien 12 | 2,675
14 Jan 2023 #148
perceive Piłsudski

Pułaski, Paderewski, Piłsudski, Prezydent Wałęsa, Premier Tusk, Pan Kleks...all great Poles start with "P".
Alien 12 | 2,675
14 Jan 2023 #149
all great Poles start with "P".

There is of course one exception: Prezes K.😀
amiga500 3 | 1,314
14 Jan 2023 #150
Prezydent Wałęsa, Premier Tusk,

also known as pizdu


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