first democratically elected President was gunned down on the steps of an art gallery by a loon with significant support,
Yes, that was some reason, indeed. But as always with dictatorships, they degenerate and become monsters which devour everything. For example, Bereza Kartuska prison for political opponents modeled on German concentration camps.
Pilsudski of course died before that happened. His famous "I am a dictator" speech shows howeevr that if he's lived linger, he'd not have ended uo like, say, Salazar.
Bereza Kartuska
The Polish Concentration Camp? Wasn't that after his death?
When he organised the military coup in 1926, he expected his political opponents would give up. They didn`t, what is worse - they became even more radical, partly because of the world crisis. So did Piłsudski - he decided to use dirty radical methods to deal with them. No more velvet gloves. .
You are a typical disgusting leftie. You are all the same, in Poland, UK or USA , you start off with debasing national history, but you view history through modern perspectives....irrelevant and pointless.
Yes, I know, I affect rightists` badly. One of my hobbies. :):):)
debasing national history,
Debasing? Don`t use words which you don`t understand. Jon and me are simply exchanging opinions of Piłsudski who was a great man when Poland regained independence and later a nasty dictator. Do you appreciate all politicians from British history?
Do you appreciate all politicians from British history
Why do you assume that my main historical interest is British history? Yet again, you show your leftard bias and narrow mindedness. It is quite laughable how ignorant you are. Go back to posting interesting facts about Poland, something you know about. And avoid politics, something that you clearly know nothing about!
that my main historical interest is British history?
We don`t care if it is main or minor. But certainly you know some basic facts about them and can express your opinion???
Go back to posting interesting facts about Poland,
Amasing. Didn`t you notice this thread is perfect for posting interesting facts? Like the one that Poland had a prison modeled on Nazi German concentration camp??? :):):)
politics, something that you clearly know nothing about!
Really??? :):):) And what did I just say about Piłsudski and his prison?? It is pure politics and history.
Yeah, yeah, yeah......just debase the history of your own nation and then impose a new ideology, Russians and Chinese did the same, now you lefties in the West are trying the same trick.
It won't work, in fact it may spectacularly backfire in a very unpleasant way. Stupid children should not play with fire. They are most likely to get burnt.
I see. So, you support concentration camps in Polish history. Sad. . :(:(:(
Stupid children should not play with fire. They are most likely to get burnt.
Yes, that`s what Piłsudski was thinking when he gave the green light to sending his political opponents to the prison modeled on Nazi concetration camp in Dachau.
It is really shocking you are supporting this style of thinking. :(:(:(
So, for you the concentration camp for Piłsudski`s opponents was justified??? Remember - morals do not change through centuries - either you are a decent person or lowlife. Piłsudski was both at various stages of his life.
Similarly to you. You might have been a decent man in the past but you have changed.
But we need to see that history through the eyes of the people that lived in that time. And not with modern perceptions and morals.
Actually, we can do both :) Besides, there are always two sides of the coin, so if you're serious about "seeing history through the eyes of the people that lived in that time", you would have to view that history also from the side of Piłsudski's opponents and not only from the side of his supporters.
I wasn`t but there are hundreds of reports from the place and about the torture - physical and mental - that was used by guards on political prisoners.
were you there or are you just using 21st century morals to form your opinion?
Sorry, Milo, but your reasoning is pretty ridiculous... Are you saying that we also shouldn't judge the Holocaust, Hitler, the Nazis, Stalin, gulags, etc. by using "21st century morals"?
Are you saying that we also shouldn't judge the Holocaust, Hitler, the Nazis, Stalin, gulags, etc. by using "21st century morals"?
Yes. We judge it by the prevailing periods of the time, where it was judged an antrocity and war crime. Your silly way of doing things is pointless, it would mean all the greek philosophers are condemmed for being pedos for example. also muhamed but of course like all people with his head up his a** pawian will condemm his own culture and too much off a pu**y to venture outwards and get a smack.
People who condemm pilsudski are traitors and will be dealth with after the next election
People who condemm pilsudski are traitors and will be dealth with after the next election
I've always been fascinated by Western versions of "democracy." And especially expats eager to turn their homeland into a concentration camp, while being at a respectable distance and risking nothing. ;)
When even Velund is defending pawian, and supporting his denunciation of pilsudski, shows how much of a traitor to poland he is. Why concentration camp when a lamp post is so much more efficient?
@amiga500, sorry, but most of your comment #141 doesn't make much sense, so I don't even know how to answer it.
Yes. We judge it by the prevailing periods of the time, where it was judged an antrocity and war crime.
No, we judge it both ways - from the perspective of our times and from the perspective of those times (or, rather, we may acknowledge the perspective of those times, while still holding our judgement from our modern perspective).
for being pedos for example. also muhamed
Well, if he f*cked a 9-year-old then he was a pedo - that's a fact. And I don't think there were ever times in the recorded history of humankind when having sex with a 9-year-old child was considered normal by the majority of the society. Besides, there are still places in this world where kids are being married off and even very young girls are forced to have sex with their husbands, so what times have to do with it?
People who condemm pilsudski are traitors
Don't be ridiculous. You sound like some crazy RuSSian nationalist who can't take the criticism of the "holy" Soviet Army, etc. Pawian acknowledges both the positive and the negative contribution of Piłsudski to Polish history. If you can't do both then you're a mental, intelectual and moral simpleton, imho.
This is pretty funny (and ironic) in a way that right-wingers and nationalists are defending Piłsudski, Piłsudski's May Coup and his persecution of political opponents lol After all, Piłsudski was a member and a leader of the Polish Socialist Party and the May Coup overthrew a right-wing government :)))
"Józef Piłsudski, at the head of certain military units devoted to his person and with the enthusiastic approval of the political and social forces of the Polish Left, staged a successful coup d'etat against the Polish parliamentary system dominated since the elections of November, 1922, by an agglomeration of Right-Center political parties."
So did Piłsudski - he decided to use dirty radical methods to deal with them. No more velvet gloves.
Yes, he wanted to eliminate his political opponents like rabid dogs. So he was a bit like you in this regard! ;) Also, he was a socialist at heart, so there's probably his portrait hanging somewhere in your house, isn't there? :)
Anyways, Piłsudski will always be remembered for his role in the independence struggle and the Battle of Warsaw. In the future Bereza Kartuska and the May Coup will be discussed only by historians specializing in the period.
Piłsudski will always be remembered for his role in the independence struggle and the Battle of Warsaw
Only by maniacs like you. hahahaha Normal people perceive Piłsudski in both aspects - the heroic leader and a brutal dictator. Not as brutal as Hitler or Stalin but still. Ha!
right-wingers and nationalists are defending Piłsudski, P
Yes. It is even funnier when semi- leftie wingers like amiga are defending him.
