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Poland's political crisis deepens


Harry
21 Dec 2016  #181
Dictatorship

Yep, although it was a nice Christmas gesture by The Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski to allow his minions to share his stage.
Crow 143 | 7,502
21 Dec 2016  #182
As I already mentioned. Poland need third political option. Something new. This PiS and previous regime are past.
Ironside 47 | 9,571
21 Dec 2016  #183
Crow, you know nothing. Please spare us your words of wisdom.
Ironside 47 | 9,571
21 Dec 2016  #184
Yep,

During rule of your beloved PO, secret services invigilated truckload of people. About 27 out of 1000 had been spied by their own country.
In German 0.2 out of 1000.
peterweg 36 | 2,315
22 Dec 2016  #185
invigilate
google.co.uk/search?q=invigilated&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&ei=M3xbWKDrEKun8wfh0JSwBg
OP jon357 64 | 14,382
22 Dec 2016  #186
Yep, although it was a nice Christmas gesture by The Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski to allow his minions to share his stage.

And there was he, only a week or so before, saying he was just an ordinary back bench MP...
Ziemowit 12 | 3,358
22 Dec 2016  #187
saying he was just an ordinary back bench MP...

He is an ordinary back bench MP.
Ironside 47 | 9,571
22 Dec 2016  #188
I see one can always count on a PF boy idiot to come out with a nonsense and two commie comrades to back him up. Not because they believe it but because there is no lie or low to which they wouldn't stoop just to destroy their ideological opponents. Which practically means any decent, normal human being on the planet.
Ziemowit 12 | 3,358
22 Dec 2016  #189
a PF boy idiot to come out with a nonsense and two commie comrades to back him up

Please specify whom exactly do you have in mind?
Harry
22 Dec 2016  #190
He is an ordinary back bench MP.

So why was he sitting in the middle of a panel of regime officials with the P Minister shoved off to one side?
Ziemowit 12 | 3,358
22 Dec 2016  #191
Why shouldn't an ordinary back bencher have the right to sit in the middle of a panel of regime officials?
Just asking ...
Harry
22 Dec 2016  #192
Why shouldn't an ordinary back bencher

Governments are led by a Prime Minister. People want to hear what the leader has to say.
cms 9 | 1,287
22 Dec 2016  #193
She is the person the population elected democratically - she should lead the discussion and not just repeat whatever Kaczynski says.

I have not noticed it but has Morawiecki made any comment on the disgraceful way the state budget was approved - clear illegalities and no debate. Why was he not there at this farcical no questions press conference ?
After2020
22 Dec 2016  #194
JAK. is the founder and undisputed leader of Poland's ruling Law and Justice party, moreover he is an elder - why shouldn't he sit in the middle of the panel.
mafketis 17 | 6,870
22 Dec 2016  #195
She is the person the population elected democratically

Not quite how it works in Poland though I get your point. She won the election for them in _spite_ of Kaczyński and the second the election was over he tried to shove her into the shadows and has belittled her consistently. He's a sexist little prig, fine with benefitting from a woman's work but not so happy to actually share power with one, even if she's the one who got him the power in the first place.
cms 9 | 1,287
22 Dec 2016  #196
I don't care who sits where. But I do care that as leader of the government she should lead this response to a serious crisis and also address the issue of why a legal budget has not yet been passed. God knows what goes through her brain when she has to sit through these humiliations.
Ziemowit 12 | 3,358
22 Dec 2016  #197
She is the person the population elected democratically - she should lead the discussion and not just repeat whatever Kaczynski says.

The weak point of your argument is that Beata Szydło is not a person elected democratically as Prime Minister. It was PiS which was elected democratically by the vote giving them a majority in parliament. Prime Minister Szydło may be easily dismissed from her position as PM by the parliamentary majory whose leader is Jarosław Kaczyński whom some people here refer to only as an "ordinary back bench MP" who he also is, but he is not only such one.

I am surprised that people born in countries having long-established parliamentary systems do not understand such things. Instead they concentrate solely on that fact that the leader of the governing party should automatically become PM and on this they build the base for assumptions that are false.
cms 9 | 1,287
22 Dec 2016  #198
Her election posters from 2015 described her clearly as PiS candidate for Premier. Its important because that vote was the mandate that PiS thinks gives them carte blanche to do what they want.

Yes I understand her party can topple her and having lived in 3 other democracies I know that can happen. However it is normally extraordinary events that cause that, not one man's whim.
mafketis 17 | 6,870
22 Dec 2016  #199
But I do care that as leader of the government she should lead this response to a serious crisis and also address the issue of why a legal budget has not yet been passed

The problem is that JK wants to replace the rule of law with rule by party leader (again, the way things worked in the PRL). Szydło is the titular head of government but she has no real power within the party as JK frequently demonstrates.

Many PiS voters don't care as long as they get their pay offs in the from of 500+ or get to fantasize about revenge against their enemies (roughly - anyone who's more successful than them).

God knows what goes through her brain when she has to sit through these humiliations

So do I. Duda is another case, I'm sure he has no backbone whatsoever and doesn't mind being told what to do and what to say. Szydło struck me as someone more her own person and it's kind of sad to see her continued degradation (though many PiS voters might enjoy the spectacle of a woman constantly being reminded of her place)
Crow 143 | 7,502
22 Dec 2016  #200
Crow, you know nothing. Please spare us your words of wisdom.

I don`t think so divni pane brate. Where Tusk and previous regime started to destabilize Poland, no matter all opposition by Kaczynski and after he died, new Szydło `s administration continues. No real effort to deal with crucial problem. No annulment of Kosovo recognition and exactly with that recognition started Poland`s internal turmoils and separation of politicians and Polish people. You know that Irone. Exactly with `Serbian question` Polish politicians started to ignore will of most of the Poles.

When did you sow that Polish police beating Polish children? Pro-Serbian demonstrations in Poland after 2008
When did you sow first violent clashes between Poles and police, since communism fall in Poland? Pro-Serbian demonstrations in Poland after 2008
When did you sow that right, central and left political elements unites to protest together? Pro-Serbian demonstrations in Poland after 2008

Don`t get me wrong, Irone. I know that `Serbian question` isn`t primary focus of Polish politics but, its quite well indicator of how Polish politics breathe, because it stimulated primarily patriotic elements and those which purely care for legalism. So, patriots and legalists were alarmed, after they sow retreat of Polish interests in front of foreign.

Not to mention that, even if we disregard Polish sympathy on Serbians for all sorts of reasons, all honest people in Poland, due to deep moral reasons which awakening deepest emotions, really can`t accept obscene Poland`s official involvement in partition of Serbia. See, wrong isn`t right just because it suits to NATO or EU.

Yes, yes. We need new, third political option in Poland.
Ironside 47 | 9,571
22 Dec 2016  #201
The problem is that JK wants to replace the rule of law

The problem is that PO and KOD are traitors and should be locked away for treason.

the way things worked in the PRL

Ah an expert. so tell us Mr expert how things worked in the PRL.

Many Pis voters

Sure, are you calling yourself an American? Voters had they say and the results of the legal election should be expected. Shame on you for talking like a damn soviet!

Opposition have no popular support among the populace in Poland. They're far and between of those who are willing to go to the streets. They have some processional rioters who already committed few offences against the law (assault) and hopefully they'll be persecuted.

Add to dictionary behaviours of some parliament members should be punished by withholding their pay! Why the taxpayers money should be used on that scum and their treasonous antics?

Please specify whom exactly do you have in mind?

Isn't that not obvious?don't play dumb Z.
Ironside 47 | 9,571
22 Dec 2016  #202
We need new, third political option in Poland.

There is not option that would first and foremost and immediately demand Kosovo to be given back to Serbia. Nor there is option that would demand to withdraw from NATO.

Polish problem are internal. There two camps - Poles and polishspeoaking Soviets (traitors), until that conflict is solved all foreign affairs are secondary issues.
Crow 143 | 7,502
22 Dec 2016  #203
Marko Skawiński back in 2013, interview on Polish TV, explains why is necessary for Poland to support Serbians. Official Poland never listened these arguments, ignored will of Polish majority, betrayed national interests of Poland, obeyed to foreigners,... and why should today`s situation in Poland surprise us? Really, why? Why when ruling Polish politicians step by step destroys very legal and moral reasons for defense of Poland itself?

Demonstracja w Warszawie - "Kosowo jest serbskie!"


Crow 143 | 7,502
22 Dec 2016  #204
Polish problem are internal. There two camps - Poles and polishspeoaking Soviets (traitors), until that conflict is solved all foreign affairs are secondary issues.

But `Serbian question` represent natural indicator of situation in Poland`s politics. For example.... how would Poland defend its sovereignty in Silesia when recognizes separation of Kosovo from Serbia? How would Poland prevent eventual attempt for new partition of Poland if takes part in partition of Serbia? How could Poland claim its own honesty in international relations if betray Serbians who are historically loyal to Poland? How is even possible that Poland taking part in formation of narco-Muslim mafia Greater Albania on Serbian Christian, Slavic ground?

There is not option that would first and foremost and immediately demand Kosovo to be given back to Serbia.

but its crucial question which define stance of Poland on its own interests. Its far bigger then just `Serbs`. Spot how Marko Skawiński speaks. Ruling Polish politicians of previous and this new administration destroying Poland. I am so sorry if you aren`t able to see this.
KiWo - | 23
22 Dec 2016  #205
I am surprised that people born in countries having long-established parliamentary systems do not understand such things

Speaking purely for myself as an interested, but unaffected, foreigner, there is usually a tradition in long established parliamentary systems that couples power with responsibility.

A succinct summary from more than a hundred years ago:

I believe in a strong executive; I believe in power; but I believe that responsibility should go with power

So, the fact that the person making all the big decisions in Poland today doesn't actually hold one of the positions listed in the Constitution as constitutionally accountable strikes me as, well, rather less than ideal.
OP jon357 64 | 14,382
23 May 2017  #206
It gets worse:

evidence of widespread logging of trees in apparent contravention of Polish and European law, including many trees that appeared to be more than 100 years old in Unesco-protected areas, with logs marked for commercial distribution

It's very possible they'll not only lose UNESCO World Heritage status, but also have problems getting it for any other sites in the future. And of course it's the usual PiS behaviour:

Foresters and hunters are a key electoral constituency of Poland's ruling rightwing Law and Justice party; the new director general of state forests, Konrad Tomaszewski, is the cousin of the law and justice leader, Jarosław Kaczyński.

The sooner they're gone the better.

theguardian.com/environment/2017/may/23/worst-nightmare-europes-last-primeval-forest-brink-collapse-logging
Crow 143 | 7,502
23 May 2017  #207
Of course that political crisis deepens in Poland. Leadership can`t successfully distance itself from EU, NATO is blindly followed, government is by EU forced to cooperate with radical Muslim Shquiptar narco terrorists while disrespect sovereign Serbia, Tusk as main traitor is out of reach of justice, Duda fails to move Poland in direction of Intermarum as promised, Poland didn`t properly support Hungary and isolating itself from other Visegrad Group members, Poland failed to support ethnic Poles in Ukraine. That for starter.
OP jon357 64 | 14,382
23 May 2017  #208
NATO

That isn't connected to Jaroslaw Kaczynski's cousin being appointed head of the state forests, nor the current illegal destruction of a UNESCO world heritage site.
OP jon357 64 | 14,382
24 May 2017  #209
And now, the Swiss Franc scandal rears its head again, still not sorted despite promises and rhetoric from the PiS junta. The way this turns out has consequences for a huge number of people.

Polish banks' ability to continue to extend credit may be hurt, along with investor confidence in the financial industry, if lenders face tighter requirements, Moody's Investors Service said in February.

A large-scale conversion of the mostly Swiss-franc loans into zloty may also strain Poland's foreign-exchange market, potentially drain the nation's currency reserves and force the central bank to help lenders gain access to enough francs to close such positions.

bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-23/understanding-poland-s-quiet-retreat-from-costly-swiss-loan-fix
Crow 143 | 7,502
24 May 2017  #210
That isn't connected to Jaroslaw Kaczynski's cousin being appointed head of the state forests, nor the current illegal destruction of a UNESCO world heritage site.

To put cross on myself, I don`t see connection.

PiS junta

Oh, no, no. PiS isn`t junta. They just don`t deflect enough from EU. See, its not easy and their attempts are clumsy. But, if they open Poland more to Hungarian and Serbian influences wonders may happen.


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