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Poland's political crisis deepens


After2020
19 Dec 2016  #151
@jon -The big one was in Warsaw on 13/12 do you have a source for 50,000 people on the street on Dec 13. All I am witness to is 3/4,000 outside the Sejm on 15/12 and a couple of thousand outside the presidential palace on 16/12. This movement is absolutely not well supported in Poland.
After2020
19 Dec 2016  #152
@CMS - Not having a proper debate about the budget has seriously spooked business - already there have been huge falls in investment the last 3 months. The Sejm was hijacked. PIS did exactly the right thing of legally adopting the budget. Any falls in investment are seasonally adjusted or due to Brexit and DJT, why would the British or Americans make any form of FDI until they know the policy.
OP jon357 63 | 14,123
19 Dec 2016  #153
already there have been huge falls in investment the last 3 months

Real estate, specifically land, prices in the posher areas around Warsaw have really fallen. Basically the well-to-do Poles are moving their money abroad.

We are also close to having sanctions from the rest of the Union.

do you have a source for 50,000 people on the street on Dec 13

Mentioned already in this forum.

The protesters were out again tonight, standing up for Poland. This one's not going to go away. The police have also been going in convoys up and down Nowy Swiat, again and again, basically a show of strength to intimidate and it should be said an unsuccessful one.
KiWo - | 23
19 Dec 2016  #154
PIS did exactly the right thing of legally adopting the budget

Except that it's far from clear that it was legally adopted. It seems a hell of a thing to leave open to possible future legal challenges.
After2020
19 Dec 2016  #155
@jon - Real estate, specifically land, prices in the posher areas around Warsaw have really fallen. Basically the well-to-do Poles are moving their money abroad. Jon we both know prices in Konstanscin,Wilanow and Izabelin have been falling for the last three years, nothing to do with PIS. You can understand wealthy Poles moving their assets abroad especially if that money was made questionably during PO era. @jon- basically a show of strength to intimidate and it should be said an unsuccessful one. Jon, please stop with the rebel rousing I live in the center of Warsaw, you have me looking outside my window and packing a case to get the next flight out of dodge.The streets of Warsaw are calm - all is quiet this silent night.
OP jon357 63 | 14,123
19 Dec 2016  #156
Jon we both know prices in Konstanscin,Wilanow

I'm talking about better areas than that, and the drop has been most dramatic within the past year. Quite a lot of other similar signs. Capital flight.

The streets of Warsaw are calm

I live in Warsaw too. You obviously didn't see Nowy Swiat last night. It was quite flagrant.

Still trying to make excuses for the unstable PIS regime.
Ironside 47 | 9,628
19 Dec 2016  #157
As good an analysis as it gets!

A conspiracy theory if I have ever seen one. lol!

I see, Ironside, that you know everything about what "zaplute karły reakcji" are thinking :D

I know a 'little bit' more than you Paulina about some issues at least.
Those are traitors who would rather destabilise Poland than take their chances in the general election in three years. For those Soviets and ex-political police scum soviet, propaganda against polish patriots is their daily bread and butter.

That is a shame that you and some people buy into it like fools and jump on the anti-PiS wagon. Look at your fellow travels and on their primitive lying soviet mugs - are you proud of yourself? Marching hand in hand with Bieruts, Kiszczaks and Stalin.

Then I am a "Soviet bastard" too, Ironside.

I don't know you so is hard to judge. In my opinion you belong to people who have been fooled by the propaganda and lies of KOD and other scum. For the last 30 years (almost) post-commies, opportunist and ex-soviet political police fuked Poland up.

Time to make Poland great again!!
PiS is not perfect but keep at bay soviet scums and hopefully that is but a first step to drain this swamp!!!

Who needs scientists anyway, right... lol Or the opposition... and the rest of that scum :D

Are they such scientist who never achieved anything significant apart from securing a state paid sinecure? The best Polish university is below 500 in the world ranking. Not because Poles are dumb but because corrupted nobodies with the political clout are calling the shots.

Maybe such a great intellectual nobodies like ex-judge corrupted Stępien - a simple churl and ignorant, arrogant buffoon with the ego the size of the Jupiter and with a brain size of a pea?

Such people have been dragging Poland down for years.
Maybe like his alter ego - Rzeplinski - who says - what rules I'm the rules!

Do you know who we are?

No I don't!

What we think?

Probably not great thinkers judging by you.

She meant that she took part in the demonstrations during the March events of 1968.

On which side? Anyhow that put the long march of Mao into shame that for sure.

What we care about? What is important for us? You clearly haven't got the slightest idea.

Really people who wasn't born yesterday and have no vested interest in post-commie system in so called PRL- bis and still supporting PO, KOD or the like, are a big mystery to me. I assume that are fooled or to dumb to get what is going on and hence are might confused.

And what where you doing during March protests in 1968?

Is that a mystical question? I don't know, wasn't born yet.

Where were you during Solidarity strikes?

Too young to care!

Who are you to call these people "Soviet scum"?

Which people exactly? Some are soviets, some are soviet scum and some are just common fools and some are fooled. I have been talking bout those who are pulling the strings in this staged protests, as well as provocateurs and liars.

What did you do for Poland?

Is that a serious question? lol!

You don't even live here, do you?

What makes you say that? eh?

understaning by PiS supporters

I'm so called PiS supporter(not really) by default. Soviet Scum and their idiot followers by they irresponsible and traitorous actions are forcing me into this unwanted position.

Kuchciński excluded an opposition MP and he did that against the rules

BS to that. Not true.

The opposition got pis$ed because

They were waiting for a pretext. Are you telling me that that laying scum Szczeba didn't deserve to be kicked out? Hell, he deserved to be smacked with something heathy on the ugly head. what a vile despicable creature. A soviet scum to the T!

PiS at this point is all about

blah blah At this point it is clear that you have a vested interest in supporting rule of the soviet scum in Poland. Shame on you for siding with scum for money.
After2020
20 Dec 2016  #158
jon- I'm talking about better areas than that, and the drop has been most dramatic within the past year. Quite a lot of other similar signs. Capital flight. Around Warsaw would mean external to Warsaw proper. Real estate prices across the board in Poland are going down, there are a number of reasons for this, none related to PIS. As for your pockets of dissent, they do not represent the majority of Poles, I do not agree with PIS 100% although I do belive this party is better for Poland medium and long tern than PO.
OP jon357 63 | 14,123
20 Dec 2016  #159
As for your pockets of dissent

A strange thing to say. The political crisis is far more than "pockets of dissent" (and why "my"?).

There is currently capital flight from Poland due to instability and the dangers inherent in the PIS regime.
After2020
20 Dec 2016  #160
jon (and why "my"?). You are promoting untruths jon, in respect of the number of dissenters on the streets of Warsaw. PIS is intent on cleaning up Poland, they will not bend to Brussels and Tusk et al. The only people on the streets of Warsaw are those who will lose their privileges or the liberal left which have been feeding off the belly of the PO ' golden pig' there are around 9,000 NGO's in Poland all claiming funding from the Government and EU. Time to get a proper job and add to the well, instead of taking from it. It goes without saying that many of foreign liberals who have found their niche in Poland, working for and with Polish NGO's are shaking in their boots, the gravy train has come to an end. PIS has the majority to finally do something positive.
Chemikiem 6 | 1,814
20 Dec 2016  #161
in respect of the number of dissenters on the streets of Warsaw.

thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/232640,Fifty-thousand-protest-in-Warsaw-against-ruling-party
bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35083561
After2020
20 Dec 2016  #162
Chemikien - Both articles are from 12/12/2015 that's is over 12 months ago... jon was referring to 13/12/2016 with his big numbers:-)
Chemikiem 6 | 1,814
20 Dec 2016  #163
Both articles are from 12/12/2015 that's is over 12 months ago

Oops! Sorry! Should have looked more closely.
cms 9 | 1,272
20 Dec 2016  #164
Lets forget about land prices in Konstancin and look at investment in new fixed assets by Polish businesses - a drop of 40 percent in the last 3 months. Quite how that is caused by Brexit I have no idea since no such falls were seen in the other 26 countries, except Ireland.

This is important - new machines need new people to switch them on and fix them, generate new production. When that is falling so quickly then real workd effects follow.
After2020
20 Dec 2016  #165
CMS - if you read the thread jon was suggesting old money was leaving Poland, Konstancin is the most affluent area of Warsaw so its representative to jon's assertion. As for investment in fixed assets, if you are a business owner you are investing in fixed assets at the end of the year for tax reasons or the beginning of the new tax year. Why would a farmer buy a new tractor in October????? As an add on, there was also EU funds available from the begging of 2016 for machinery as you will probably know, being a recipient of EU funds. This may have caused a spike in purchases during Q1/Q2...
kondzior 8 | 946
20 Dec 2016  #166
Let's put things into perspective first. For 8 years we were governed by pro-EU, christian liberals from PO. Last year PiS won the parlimentary and presidential elections, and for the first time since 1990 we have an absolute majority in the parliment, meaning PiS is able to do everything they want. Moreover, none of the true leftist parties entered the parliment (those who are pro-gay, anti church etc.). The christian liberals who ruled for past 8 years along with leftists got so butthurt, they started this whole KOD movement (Komitet Obrony Demokracji - Committee for the Defence of Democracy). They basically want to rule indefinitely becuse they know better, the election results notwithstanding (nobody questioned election results, they were 100% legit as far as i can tell). They're trying to jump back into power ever since, doing everything they can, from begging the EU to get rid of current democratically elected government "save democracy" and spreading their lies through Soros-sponsored liberal media (TVN, Gazeta Wyborcza, Newsweek Polska among others) to making regular protests on every possible ocasion (pro-abortion feminist rallies, the anniversary of the imposition of the 1981 martial law, "anti-nationalist" independece day marches etc.). The funniest thing must be the kind of people who started to support this "pro-democracy" movement lately, and who are in turn endorsed by the leader of KOD. I'm talkig about former members of the communist internal security services who are best known for incarcerations, torture and murder of opposition members, priests, WWII veterans who fought in the west etc. They joined in because PiS wants to take away their pensions. Yeah, you read it right. Former communist oppresors and aparatchiks endorse the so-called pro-democracy movement now lol People like the former press secretary and spokesperson of the socialist party Jerzy Urban. So yeah, the sh!t happening today is nothing new. These people won't rest, though their support ins't all that great.

But to be clear, PiS are no saints. They're braindead populists who stirred up more sh!t with their retarded decissions than they should. Their defence minister is borderline retarded, their commie persecution mania is so strong even I'm against it (and all commies should hang imo), because they are going to hurt decent people too, and their blatant power grabs and shady proceedings lately are worrisome. There's a complete and utter lack of reason and common sense in our politics. It's never been that bad, people just support one of the two options these days without any dose of critical thinking. And the worst thing is, there is no real alternative.
OP jon357 63 | 14,123
20 Dec 2016  #167
Police have forcibly moved demonstrators from outside the Sejm during the night. Not for any other reason that a show of strength which in fact didn't work. The police are unable (or unwilling and it should be said they are uncomfortable being used as a political pawn) to give any reason for that or more worryingly say under what legal grounds they did it. Also, the fire brigade have now been unwillingly politicised and used to build roadblocks.

It didn't work, since the crowds are now larger and another all nighters is expected.
Crow 137 | 7,540
20 Dec 2016  #168
This all reminds me on time from big brother, Warsaw Pact and repression. But seams that now, and opposition, and regime, works on the behalf of big brother that now have name- NATO. So, seams that big brother brutally experiments on Poles.
Wincig 2 | 174
20 Dec 2016  #169
It's never been that bad, people just support one of the two options these days without any dose of critical thinking.

I am afraid that this is nothing new if you look at Poland's history. Although Poland was one of the first European countries to dismiss absolute monarchy and have "parties" (kings were elected, 2nd written constitution in the world), it never really managed to get opposing parties to sit down, hammer out a reasonable compromise and abide by it. I put this down to slavic temperament.. And that's also why I believe that Crow's dream of a slavic Intermarum will never materialize.. Even if it would, it would collapse soon thereafter :)
sawii
20 Dec 2016  #170
kondzior: I agree with you on 80 %, however, I don't think that opposition to the party that wants to destroy legal procedures, doesnt care at all about people's freedoms etc. WOULD BE A WRONG thing.

samples: buying farm land, proposed abortion laws, Trybunal (illegal !!! what PO did wasnt good, but what PiS does now is like law wouldnt exist at all) , new manifestation laws, proposed journalists - parlament, access "laws", total propaganda from national TV (i dont remember situation in there being that bad.... TVN and others also lie, but not so blantly, like you would be idiot... methods borrowed from PRL), saying about half (or more) society as a worthless idiots that don't reserve such "briliant" government etc. etc. I will skip here SIM card registration as this is what PO would do too, unofortunately - thats the current trend in governments that lie about national security, gamble with nation's emotions to get more power and privileges and trample the others. been there like that since 1000s of years everywhere.

so while I have also mixed feelings about KOD etc. - well at least, any people that go to the streets signal to the current government that "not everything is OK".
mafketis 20 | 7,058
20 Dec 2016  #171
But to be clear, PiS are no saints. They're braindead populists who stirred up more sh!t with their retarded decissions than they should

They campaign so hard on the platform of "It's a rotten crooked system!" they have to break the law to maintain any credibility with their gullible followers.

Their defence minister is borderline retarded

You're far more charitable than I am. I think he's mentally ill.

their commie persecution mania is so strong even I'm against it (and all commies should hang imo), because they are going to hurt decent people too

What do you expect? They're all about creating paper targets for the base to get riled up over. Meanwhile they have a loyal communist party member (there till the bitter end) as one of their public faces for decommunization. It's an old PRL tactic - make your followers appear to believe lies. Then they're complicit and have no choice but to follow.

their blatant power grabs and shady proceedings lately are worrisome

That's what all the other hubbub is supposed to cover up. Internally it's a kleptocracy all about diverting public resources to themselves and their chronies.

There's a complete and utter lack of reason and common sense in our politics

Sadly true. I would say that it won't get better till JK's generation dies off but chances are they're poisoning the young (they've certainly tarnished all the younger talent in the party).
kondzior 8 | 946
21 Dec 2016  #172
I would say that it won't get better till JK's generation dies off but chances are they're poisoning the young (they've certainly tarnished all the younger talent in the party).

Whats the alternative? Some EU cucks that will flood Poland with truck drivers from Middle East?
Ironside 47 | 9,628
21 Dec 2016  #173
don't think that opposition to the party that wants to destroy legal procedures, doesnt care at all about people's freedoms etc. WOULD BE A WRONG thing.

Well, opposition is there. None is saying that they shouldn't oppose all those things that PiS is introducing.
They have NOTHING to offer to the country and people? It has been a year after election and all we can hear from some called opposition is a hysterical constant yelling - PiS is bad, PiS is evil, PiS is doing evil things.

However for them ALL things PiS have been doing for the last year have been described as bad. There wasn't a single issue that post-commie establishment considered to be a good thing.

The problem as I see that they have nothing to offer to people - they ingenuity amounts to standing there with close eyes, covered ears and yelling on the top of their voice - NO, no no like a petulant child.

All that to a constant theme choir - that is an end of democracy, dark times indeed!
Somehow people and I mean the general populace do not buy it!

Procedures:
That is not factual. Opposing preventing Parliament from proceeding in they they did is clearly in the direct violation of the standards and procedures.

People freedom:
Yes that is a general problem with the commie opposition they say things like that without any specifics. In what way freedoms are infringed? Eh?

(i dont remember situation in there being that bad....

Memory lapses or just general inability to face the truth?

TVN and others also lie, but not so blantly,

Now I know that you are a jester.
Ironside 47 | 9,628
21 Dec 2016  #174
they have to break the law

Is that an opinion or a fact? testing!

I think he's mentally ill.

Its obvious that you have never met men of his calibre. Judging him by the standards of your average politician is a big mistake. That dude stood (with a very few) alone against Soviet Union regime and reminded unbending. You cannot even imagine how it is to be him. This guy will do and say what he think is right no matter what - he is unbending. Mentally ill - yes if you consider a dude who survived 20 years of soviet prison or a war vet - mentally ill.

I would say that you lack capacity to comprehend him.

their commie persecution mania is so strong even I'm against

You are a clown! What mania? WTF are talking about? Do you even know?

Meanwhile they have a loyal communist party member

So what? What it has to do with anything? You're full of shyt!
cms 9 | 1,272
21 Dec 2016  #175
Not denying his bravery or his principles but I thought he was 3 years in internment, not 20 years in a Soviet prison ?
Ironside 47 | 9,628
21 Dec 2016  #176
was 3 years in internment, not 20 years

A figure of speech. However his anti-Soviet activity lasted almost 20 years. That is not a small feat.
mafketis 20 | 7,058
21 Dec 2016  #177
his anti-Soviet activity lasted almost 20 years. That is not a small feat.

But it is not a suitable qualification for the position he now holds...
Wixxi
21 Dec 2016  #178
Let psychoanalysts deal Poland's politics. No kidding at all. Let professionals deal another clinical case. The deeper goes PiS headed by mentally poor person with its killing democracy initiatives, the deeper political crisis we get.

For medical record please follow: medium/@SabineBoeddinghaus/poles-are-hiding-the-truth-about-mental-health-of-jaroslaw-kaczynski-42d502a995b5
Ironside 47 | 9,628
21 Dec 2016  #179
But it is not a suitable qualification for the position he now holds...

His voters do not agree with you.
smurf 39 | 1,982
21 Dec 2016  #180
Dictatorship Level: 8.5


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