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Poland's political crisis deepens


Observvver
17 Dec 2016  #31
>so how do you feel your right to protest and oppose is being limited - be precise please

Here's another example. Imagine your children have asthma. The government decide to build a truck depot behind your house, where trucks will assemble and wait. With their engines running, there will be lots of diesel fumes, lots of atmospheric particles. You and your neighbours wish to form a group to challenge the policy in court, on the grounds that it will seriosuly increase air pollution and damage your childrens' health. Maybe even shorten their life. Under this new law, you would be disqualified from challenging it. Even though you can accumulate the evidence from existing studies and reports of the likely effect of the trucks on your childrens' health, you are not a professional scientist, so you no longer have the right to a voice in court.
gumishu 11 | 4,956
17 Dec 2016  #32
Under this new law, you would be disqualified from challenging it.

under which new law? never heard of anything like that - are you sure we live in the same country

and well how do you feel your rights to protest are being limited - appart from that example I never heard about you haven't pinpointed anything precise
mafketis 17 | 6,894
17 Dec 2016  #33
under which new law? never heard of anything like that

maybe you're not very well informed, that does seem to be a common feature among PiS supporters....
gumishu 11 | 4,956
17 Dec 2016  #34
oh please do inform me - which law does observer have in mind mr informed
Observvver
17 Dec 2016  #35
>under which new law?

This one: m.wyborcza.pl/akcje_spoleczne/7,155841,21134354,rzad-chce-ograniczyc-nasze-prawa-do-wyrazania-opinii-i-protestu.html?disableRedirects=true

>appart from that example I never heard about you haven't pinpointed anything precise

I just gave you two precise examples. There are many many other possible examples around environmental law and the rights of environmental campaign groups.

Here's another example. This week Szyszko's department tabled a motion in parliament, without public consultation, to remove the need by the state forestry for permits from the Regional Directorate in the case of protected species. This emans that state forestry can now cut down whatever they want, whenever they want, even if destroys protected wildlife such as an eagle nest, without any need for a permit from anybody, just to make firewood. This places all power in the hands of the minister and his foresters, without any checks at all. Scientists, hunters, and just the general public now have no advocate to consider their opinions if they don't agree with Szyszko's foresters. In other words, your national emblem (the eagle) now has no protection in Poland if a forester wants to cut down its nest to make firewood.

Once again, total power is being concentrated in the hands of PiS politicians, and they are removing the rights of any independent state or public bodies to challenge them. Today eagles, tomorrow....who?
gumishu 11 | 4,956
17 Dec 2016  #36
I just gave you two precise examples. There are many many other possible examples around environmental law and the rights of environmental campaign groups.

ok - to be honest I haven't read the link when you first put it in - hmm this new law is hmmm fringe and in my opinion necessary to stop environmentalists from blocking important infrasturcture investment - your second example does not make sense - you can challenge any investment be it private or state if it puts your well-being at risk based on civil law

appart from this fringe law which tackles enviromentalist organizations can you give an example how your rights have been limited?

In other words, your national emblem (the eagle) now has no protection in Poland if a forester wants to cut down its nest to make firewood.

have you seen an eagle in your lifetime - I haven't and I live in a forest
Observvver
17 Dec 2016  #37
>have you seen an eagle in your lifetime - I haven't and I live in a forest

You're joking? They are common in Poland. There is a tourist industry (e.g. Milicz, Biebrza). Many Poles never saw Pope John Paul, but they still cared that he was there.

>appart from this fringe law which tackles enviromentalist organizations can you give an example how your rights have been limited?

Well, it is not 'fringe' if your interests happen to be environmental, such as the Polish Academy of Sciences or other Universities, citizens, tour guides, or people who just love nature like unspoilt forests and clean rivers. Bialowieza Forest is not 'fringe', it's a world heritage site, so it's the same 'fringe' as Wieliczka salt mines. So, yes, this directly affects such people.

But do you think it will stop at environmental groups? Now the precedent is set, the government might find other groups irritating to "blocking important infrastructure". Maybe next it will be healthcare groups, or maybe you and something you care about. After all, why not? What's the difference between one group wanting to protect or oppose something, and you wanting to do it - can you seriously say that your interests would never be threatened? Maybe you can;t imagine it today, but a year ago nobody thought that the government would want to expand logging to 2/3 of a world heritage site at Bialowieza Forest? Thin end of the wedge. You don't see it as worrying at all?
dolnoslask 5 | 2,462
17 Dec 2016  #38
have you seen an eagle in your lifetime

Every summer here in lower Silesia, Amazing.
gumishu 11 | 4,956
17 Dec 2016  #39
But do you think it will stop at environmental groups?

Yes I think it will stop there - if you think otherwise then in my eyes you are hysteric

but a year ago nobody thought that the government would want to expand logging to 2/3 of a world heritage site at Bialowieza Forest?

as far as I know the dead spruce stands will be removed - hardly logging of the 2/3rds of the Białowieża forrest

it is meant to prevent all spruce from dying out there - will it work? I don't know
Observvver
17 Dec 2016  #40
>as far as I know the dead spruce stands will be removed - hardly logging of the 2/3rds of the Białowieża forrest

Wrong. There is a revised management plan that will log 2/3 of the forest, and leave 1/3. All species will be logged, including 200 year old oaks, and replanted. This means turning a natural forest (world heritage site) into a commercial plantation. It is impossible to remove spruce without also removing other species because they grow in mixed stands, so they cannot get to individual trees with machinery, they clear fell large blocks, which conveniently includes the commercially valuable ancient oaks and limes which were previously protected from exploitation.

This action has been condemned by Polish Academy of Sciences, State Council of Nature Conservation, science departments of Universities of Wroclaw, Katowice, Krakow and Warsaw. So, basically, all major scientists in Poland. And UNESCO.

Who do you trust more on the issue of Bialowieza Forest, which is the natural heritage of all of us? Is it all of the highest Polish scientists, who have no commercial interests, or is it the forester minister with commercial interests?

>Yes I think it will stop there - if you think otherwise then in my eyes you are hysteric

And you are too trusting, because already there are propsals to ban street protests that might annoy Kaczynski at his monthly Smolensk meeting. After this week expect restrictions on protests around your parliament and by your elected politicians - Kaczynski vowed 'consequences'. Drip, drip, drip, drip...
gumishu 11 | 4,956
17 Dec 2016  #41
It is impossible to remove spruce without also removing other species because they grow in mixed stands,

it's definitely not impossible

maybe you are right about the plans though - I haven't followed the issue beyond a certain point

there are propsals to ban street protests that might annoy Kaczynski at his monthly Smolensk meeting

the new law says manifestations need to be separate by 100 meters - this is not banning in my dictionary
gumishu 11 | 4,956
17 Dec 2016  #42
maybe you are right about the plans though - I haven't followed the issue beyond a certain point

I read this article and well this doesn't sound
terriblebusinessinsider.com.pl/technologie/nauka/fakty-i-mity-o-puszczy-bialowieskiej-lasy-panstwowe-vs-greenpeace/bmt0w7e
- Białowieża National Park won't be affected as the article states - the other parts of Białowieża forest are a commercial forest anyway
gumishu 11 | 4,956
17 Dec 2016  #43
Every summer here in lower Silesia, Amazing.

are you sure they are/were not hawks or buzzards?
Observvver
17 Dec 2016  #44
It's hard to counter demonstrate from 100 m away! You are told WHERE you can and cannot demonstrate, giving preference to other (preferred) demonstrators. That is a kind of banning. You are restricted - "you cannot hold your sign here, sir, you cannot tell your opinion, move or be arrested".

Bialowieza: the spruce are 40 m tall, growing mixed amongst oaks, limes, hornbeams in dense forest. It's impossible to extract them without felling the rest (or they get caught up in the other trees), and this is what they do - they cut blocks, including the valuable old oaks and other species that were previously protected. The other key point to notice is that then they REPLANT with new trees. This means they put commercial trees (for timber) into what was previously a natural mixed forest grown by nature. If it was about protecting the forest then you would simply allow it to regenerate from its own seeds and stumps. Costs nothing, preserves the natural species and mixture. But no, this is about money, and 'taming' the wild forest by foresters to keep making money. Once it happens then it is changed forever and the wild forest can never be got back. Listen to the Polish scientists, they have nothing to gain in financial terms, and they are all unanimous that this is the wrong thing to do and will destroy the unique wild forest, which is known and revered all around the world as one of Poland's crown jewels.
Observvver
18 Dec 2016  #45
gumishu - here is a map of white-tailed eagle distribution in Poland: ornitho.pl/index.php?m_id=509&frmSpecies=158&action=species&y=-1

That is just one species, there are 4 kinds of eagle breeding in Poland.
Observvver
18 Dec 2016  #46
>Białowieża National Park won't be affected as the article states - the other parts of Białowieża forest are a commercial forest anyway

This is an article from Nature, the top science journal in the World (where nobel prizes are won):

nature.com/news/polish-scientists-protest-over-plan-to-log-in-bia%C5%82owie%C5%BCa-forest-1.19428
gumishu 11 | 4,956
18 Dec 2016  #47
It's hard to counter demonstrate from 100 m away!

why would you even want to counterdemonstrate?
Observvver
18 Dec 2016  #48
>why would you even want to counterdemonstrate?

Who knows? Are you happy to think that there will never ever be a situation, any time in the future, under any political climate, when you would not want to counter-demonstrate against something you thought was wrong?

This does not just affect liberals - conservatives might want to counter-demonstrate against many things, e.g. pro-abortion rallies, pro-secular rallies. That is their fundamental right. You're happy to be told that you have to be silent and go 100 m away, forever more, no matter what the situation?
gumishu 11 | 4,956
18 Dec 2016  #49
gumishu - here is a map of white-tailed eagle distribution in Poland: ornitho.pl/index.php?m_id=509&frmSpecies=158&action=species&y=-1

according to the map there are suspected 185 nests of white-tailed eagle in Poland - it means simply you can go all your life not seeing one - and they are limited to areas where larger water bodies are present - there are only 3 such nest locations in the GENERAL area of Puszcza Białowieska - I guess you rarely go to forests

You're happy to be told that you have to be silent and go 100 m away, forever more, no matter what the situation?

I have no issues with that - the real decisions are made through voting not on the streets
Observvver
18 Dec 2016  #50
>I guess you rarely go to forests

As you might have guessed, I am actually a forest scientist. Maybe I know what I'm looking at ;)
We can talk woodpeckers instead if you wish. Bialowieza has globally important populations of Three-toed and White-backed Woodpeckers, which require the extensive old forest complex. The wider forest acts as a buffer and cushion for the small National Park, which is why it is all a UNESCO world heritage site. If it was just a normal commercial forest, UNESCO would not designate it!
Observvver
18 Dec 2016  #51
>I have no issues with that - the real decisions are made through voting not on the streets

But think of this. PiS must know that the restrictions work both ways - they might want to protest one day, when they are in opposition. But this doesn't seem to matter to them. Isn't that a bit chilling? It's almost like they don't ever expect to need to protest, either because they will never be out of power or they will prevent the kind of demonstrations that they might want to oppose on the streets.
gumishu 11 | 4,956
18 Dec 2016  #52
As you might have guessed,

every lay person could have posted what you have (after a bit of research)

I still doubt whole blocks of the forest will be chopped - haven't found anything that supports your claim of the 2/3 of the Puszcza to be cut down - I have no idea how wide is the area designated as the UNESCO heritage site and what it entails in practice - I don't know if the planned dead spruce removal can help - spruce is dying here as well (Bory Niemodlińskie) and in the entirety of the Polish mountains - can we help it? i don't know - there are people who probably know better (somewhat better - i doubt their infallibility)

It's almost like they don't ever expect to need to protest, either because they will never be out of power or they will prevent the kind of demonstrations that they might want to oppose on the streets.

again - YOU ARE PARANOID - I think it comes with education - the more educated people are the more paranoid they get
Observvver
18 Dec 2016  #53
> - haven't found anything that supports your claim of the 2/3 of the Puszcza to be cut down -

Read this: euobserver.com/environment/134841

Or this, from PiS-controlled media: thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/254202,Extensive-logging-starts-in-Bialowieza-forest

So who's paranoid? ;) Honestly, I'm on the level.
gumishu 11 | 4,956
18 Dec 2016  #54
every lay person could have posted what you have (after a bit of research)

and if you claim that the removal of dead spruce is impossible without removing all trees I simply doubt your competences
gumishu 11 | 4,956
18 Dec 2016  #55
@gumishu

Read this: euobserver.com/environment/134841

Or this, from PiS-controlled media: thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/254202,Extensive-logging-starts-in-Bialowieza-forest

neither of these support your claim
Observvver
18 Dec 2016  #56
>I don't know if the planned dead spruce removal can help - spruce is dying here as well

It's probably climate change that's responsible, pushing the limit of spruce further north. It's been happening for about 30 years in the puszcza. The bark beetles are irrelevant. There has been an ongoing struggle between the foresters and the scientists over what Bialowieza is, or should be. Unesco designated the whole forest complex, which was seen as the 'victory' in finally preserving the forest as a mostly natural system for science, posterity, all of Europe (such wild forest was wiped out everywhere else). This latest action by Szyszko is widely seen as his revenge over his humiliation over the Rospuda affair (his wish to build a motorway through important marshes was foiled). Szyszko is a forester, he's repaying old friends, and also settling scores with scientists and conservationists. But the irrepalceable Bialowieza (which really is the most important natural site in Poland, famous internationally in science) is the victim in this. That is a tragedy for all Poles. In the equivalent of the Taj Mahal or Big Ben or the Sydney Opera House. It is the only place left in Europe where the original wild forest remains, with minimum intervention from man, and so it is a unique natural laboratory that all other European and American sites are compared to. It's that important to European science and culture, as ultimately that's the only place where we can see what Europe was like before farming, where Europeans originally lived as hunter-gatherers.
Observvver
18 Dec 2016  #57
>neither of these support your claim

They both specifiy "two-thirds" of the forest will be logged!
gumishu 11 | 4,956
18 Dec 2016  #58
They both specifiy "two-thirds" of the forest will be logged!

it does not mean all of the trees will be removed simple as that - I think you have problems with reading comprehension
Observvver
18 Dec 2016  #59
>it does not mean all of the trees will be removed simple as that - I think you have problems with reading comprehension

Ok, it's all fine. And the major scientific institutions in Poland are wrong. Why don't you trust Polish science? The universities and academies are a poor standard?

kochampuszcze.pl/ilovebialowieza/StateCouncilOfEnviProtection_Statement.pdf

kochampuszcze.pl/ilovebialowieza/EN_%20PolishAcademyofScience_statement.pdf

kochampuszcze.pl/ilovebialowieza/EN_%20Statementof17Scientists .pdf
gumishu 11 | 4,956
18 Dec 2016  #60
Ok, it's all fine. And the major scientific institutions in Poland are wrong. Why don't you trust Polish science?

as I said if you claim that the removal of dying spruce is impossible without removing all other trees I doubt your competences


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