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Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU


TheOther 6 | 3,821
18 Jan 2020 #271
Oh that nothing.

You are easily manipulated, aren't you?
Ironside 49 | 10,311
18 Jan 2020 #272
Very easily, I'm total sucker that never lived in a totalitarian country and have been a spoiled brat all my live. I have no idea that one need to differentiae between slogans and promises and the reality. Oh wait that would be you...

then it's not wisest approach

Why is that?
Tacitus 2 | 1,136
18 Jan 2020 #273
Well, unlike the Uk Poland is not a net payer, and Warsaw has not been particulary helpful partner since 2015, so I suspect the fallout of a Polexit would be much smaller than Brexit. As long as there is a strong core consisting of the Benelux countries, France, Germany, Austria and the Nordic ones the EU will survive, since those countries would still benefit from its' existence. A core EU might actually be the way forward, truth to be told.
Lenka 3 | 1,966
18 Jan 2020 #274
Why is that?

Because even outside the EU Poland would probably want to trade and cooperate with EU on certain things . Because it would be our neighbour and unless it fell apart completely- a huge force in the region. It's situation would still have impact on Poland, even if not as direct.
Ironside 49 | 10,311
18 Jan 2020 #275
A core EU might actually be the way forward, truth to be told.

Oh no! lol
I concur, go all the way - trum, trum, terum tum tum .

Alternately Brussels and all pen pusher could be fired and have some basic agreement of cooperation without any need forceful rules.

It's situation would still have impact on Poland, even if not as direct.

Yes, but Poland would have more freedom on more control over it direction and affairs'.
Braveheart16 18 | 195
18 Jan 2020 #276
Ironside....Yes, but Poland would have more freedom on more control over it direction and affairs'.

I'm not sure that now is the moment for Poland to even consider leaving the EU.....there is too much at stake....Poland is still rebuilding and creating its infrastructure and therefore will continue to rely on funding from the EU....Poland has a lot to offer but it really should not run before it walks....
Lenka 3 | 1,966
18 Jan 2020 #277
@Ironside
Even in that situation EU would be a huge player in the region and 'not caring' what goes on in there would be stupid Any strategy would have to involve analysis and plan for the EU.
Tacitus 2 | 1,136
18 Jan 2020 #278
and have some basic agreement of cooperation without any need forceful rules.

Look at the international scene. You cant habe agreements without forceful rules, otherwise the stronger would just abuse their position. And why wouldn't they, not like there would be anything to stop them or give them pause.
Miloslaw 7 | 3,264
18 Jan 2020 #279
A core EU might actually be the way forward,

It is the only way forward for the EU.
This mass expansion has been a huge mistake, as has been increased fedaralism.
Nobody wants it, apart from the French and Germans that run it for their own benefit...... everyone sees that now....the game is up.
TheOther 6 | 3,821
18 Jan 2020 #280
... lived in a totalitarian country

That's probably why you enjoy being manipulated and lied to by your politicians. I understand.

I'm total sucker

First time you tell the truth... :)
mafketis 23 | 8,404
18 Jan 2020 #281
A core EU might actually be the way forward, truth to be told.

If the EU cannot solve its inner contradictions that might be the only way forward for the non-northern countries.

You can't enforce austerity and preach solidarity at the same time (well you can, but that's a contradiction that will sooner or later tear you apart).
Tacitus 2 | 1,136
19 Jan 2020 #282
You can't enforce austerity and preach solidarity

This is hardly contradictary. Countries like Greece received an unprecedented amount of solidarity, so that they could remain in the EU and Euro. Austerity was the price they had to pay for it, because naturally other countries would have been hesitant otherwise to help them. Not only because Greece obviously needed reforms, but also because poorer countries like the Baltic states would have seen it as unfair.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590
19 Jan 2020 #283
You can't enforce austerity and preach solidarity at the same time.

Solidarity by strangers for strangers is called welfare, maf!

There is a limit people are willing to pay for non-family members to support them. It's hard to convince someone who has to struggle himself to pay for far away peoples privileges. Solidarity can't be ordered at will, people will start to balk! Austerity of the recipient is the price to pay to keep up that solidarity! (And the biggest motive to end that dependency).
mafketis 23 | 8,404
19 Jan 2020 #284
Greece received an unprecedented amount of solidarity

and

Austerity of the recipient is the price to pay to keep up that solidarity!

you're pretty much making my point, all the solidarity that Greece has received and its economy is still in the toilet and it's still hemorraghing young people with youth unemployment around 30%

Germany feels self-righteous and Greece is still poorer than it was before the euro.... a contradiction.

It doesn't even matter who's right and who's wrong, it's that kind of contradiction that will eventually (not in the next few years but eventually) tear the EU apart or simply turn it into a de facto German economic crypto-empire.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590
19 Jan 2020 #285
all the solidarity that Greece has received and its economy is still in the toilet....

Welfare/Solidarity is meant to prevent the worst....starving/freezing to death on the streets! It's a generous help to absorb the worst of life's shocks which can happen to everybody.

It's granted with the case in mind that the giver can become a taker and needing this help at one time in his life too. But it is always meant SHORT TERM, only as long till you get on your own feet again. But that you have to do yourself!

When you pay for strangers welfare and the recipient keeps on receiving without any signs of getting out of it, is it your fault now?

Germany feels self-righteous

Every giver feels self-righteous...and every taker feels not only gratefulness but also resentment....it' only human!

Greece is still poorer than it was before the euro.... a contradiction.

Now that is just a lie!

It doesn't even matter who's right and who's wrong

It matters alot!

tear the EU apart or simply turn it into a de facto German economic crypto-empire.

Only if the welfare recipients really truly want to stop the welfare...thinking they would be better off without!

The only ones tearing the EU apart could be the givers stop wanting to provide solidarity/welfare...
Torq 32 | 2,999
19 Jan 2020 #286
Solidarity by strangers for strangers is called welfare, maf!

Exactly.

That's why the entire idea of "free money" (farming subsidies, structural funds etc.) should be abandoned for good. You can't get rich by receiving handouts.

I see that happening in Poland: local authorities become too dependent on European funds, and very often they draw loans for completely unnecessary projects (where they have to provide 50% of the funds) and get even deeper in debt as a result.

Unrestricted access to European markets, free competition (without subsidies of any kind), decreasing bureaucracy, simplifying the law, hard work, innovation, frugality - that's how it should work in the entire EU. We know from history that socialism and central planning don't work - let's not make the same mistakes all over again.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590
19 Jan 2020 #287
You can't get rich by receiving handouts.

That's not "handouts" or welfare...it's investment. When your industry is not able to compete you will never be able to pull your own weight. So most of this money is meant to get your economy up to par...so that you in the future no longer only export cheap laborers and in time will become an asset, maybe even a giver yourself.

West-Germany got this kind of help after WWII with the Marshall-plan and it is paid back thousandfold...East-Germany got this kind of help after the re-unification..and it ends now (end of the solidarity-tax 2021).

That's a huge difference than to pay welfare for people who can't help themselves!
Torq 32 | 2,999
19 Jan 2020 #288
most of this money is meant to get your economy up to par...

I'm not quite sure if that's exactly how it works. Remember the Polish shipyards case?

Most of Poland's heavy industry was outdated, and unable to compete with western companies, so most of those factories were closed, and it was the right thing to do. Imagine if instead of that they were subsidised forever to avoid closing them. Nobody would complain if it wasn't for the fact that western companies (i.e. German shipyards) did receive government subsidies. Unequal treatment is another problem which hasn't been properly addressed. If we gave up "free money" altogether, there would be no reason for resentment or accusations of unequal treatment.

so that you in the future no longer only export cheap laborers and in time will become an asset, maybe even a giver yourself.

It's already happening. Poland is a huge importer of cheap labour in fact (3 million Ukrainians is about 15-17% of the entire workforce!).

Poland is at a point when it would be beneficial to stop receiving EU structural funds, and if unfair farming subsidies were abandoned as well, we could become the bread basket of Europe (western farming is kept alive artificially by the huge subsidies).
Spike31 3 | 1,637
19 Jan 2020 #289
Warsaw has not been particulary helpful partner since 2015

That's interesting that you've chosen that date. I have to agree with you. Since Germany wanted to enforce their, previously invited, unwanted 'muslim guests' on Poland political relations between our countries got a lot colder.

You can't get rich by receiving handouts.

Tell that to the socialists running the EU and expect to be publicly lynched
mafketis 23 | 8,404
19 Jan 2020 #290
It matters alot!

Let's say Germany is right. There is still a contradiction if most Greeks disagree.

Let's say Greece is right. There is still a contradiction if most Germans disagree.

It doesn't matter who's wrong or right in terms of the existence of a contradiction.

The type of integration that EU officials want can only genuinely come into being over decades and decades and not be rushed. Trying to accelerate integration beyond natural speeds is a recipe for disaster, but EU officials only know one speed: FASTER!
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590
19 Jan 2020 #291
Imagine if instead of that they were subsidised forever to avoid closing them.

These are support funds paid by the givers of the EU...but there is not much Brussel can do to force the receiver gov to use them wisely...that's the problem about it!

But imagine Berlin or Paris or others would decide what to do with it IN Poland...can you imagine that outcry?

There is where the influence ends, you can only hope for a good gov who knows what to do with the support...but all in all I think Poland had better luck with economy savvy politicians than...say....Greece!

Let's say Germany is right. There is still a contradiction if most Greeks disagree.

Greece is a democratic country...they chose their government fair and square.

Lately they even chose a conservative gov again...not wanting to leave the Euro at all...so, with what exactly are they disagreeing? Surely not with receiving the solidarity!

Or...where is Varoufakis now?
Torq 32 | 2,999
19 Jan 2020 #292
Well, all in all I suppose we can't complain - the progress is undeniable, we learnt a lot and Poland today is a MUCH better place to live in than it was in 2004 (not to mention 1989). Having said that, there is plenty of room for improvement, and it would be a better idea to move the Union more to the right economy-wise, and gradually prepare to abandon the subsidies.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590
19 Jan 2020 #293
but EU officials only know one speed: FASTER!

To chose to become part of the EUROZONE is the end of the integration, there is nothing faster than that. But it had been Greece totally wanting, demanding to become part if this zone of highly competitive, integrated countries. So much so that they cooked their books to present themselves as much more advanced and stable as they truly were..

Who is at fault now?

Having said that, there is plenty of room for improvement,

In East-Germany too...

We will proably need the same time to catch up as we have lost!

There are good news too....Brussels just decided to cut the support for Turkey at about 75%!

Money well saved! :)
Torq 32 | 2,999
19 Jan 2020 #294
Brussels just decided to cut the support for Turkey at about 75%!

Money well saved! :)

Hear, hear :)
mafketis 23 | 8,404
19 Jan 2020 #295
Lately they even chose a conservative gov again...not wanting to leave the Euro at all...so, with what exactly are they disagreeing?

They've given up on the idea that voting can change anything, so might as well vote for someone your boss likes....

Again, you're arguing right and wrong and I'm saying in terms of a contradiction that's irrelevant. Unless a majority of Greeks come to regard Germany as right and austerity as a good thing imposed by a loving authority figure with their best interests in mind (in other words, self-colonization) then.... the contradiction still exists.

And I'm using Greece as an example. This is also true of Spain and Italy... much bigger countries (not to mention France - where anti-EU feeling is almost as high as in the UK!)
Crow 139 | 8,609
19 Jan 2020 #296
as there is a strong core consisting of the Benelux countries, France, Germany, Austria and the Nordic ones the EU will survive,

When process of EU dissipation finish, most probably neither all Nordic countries won`t all go with western Europe, neither will Germany survive in its current borders. Finland, Sweden, Norway, as well as Eastern Germany may very easily opt to stay in Central European Union with Baltic states, Visegrad countries, Romania, Slovenia, new Serbia, etc. Austria also.

A core EU might actually be the way forward, truth to be told.

Wishful thinking.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590
19 Jan 2020 #297
They've given up on the idea that voting can change anything

I'm sorry Maf....even when I'm disagreeing with the outcome of elections....I still accept the democratic process (and hope for the next one).

Neither is the EU the mean dictatorial all-powerful overlord nor are the Greeks the totally helpless, weak, naive sheep as you prefer to present both. Just accept that the political and economical realities are alot more multifaceted and that there often is no clear cut solution to fit all!
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590
19 Jan 2020 #298
.... the contradiction still exists.

I'm not sure what you mean with that "contradiction"....
Spike31 3 | 1,637
19 Jan 2020 #299
it would be a better idea to move the Union more to the right economy-wise, and gradually prepare to abandon the subsidies

Yes, to tranform the union into a purely economical pact and a free trade zone without its ideological undertone.

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