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Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU


mafketis 23 | 8,360
19 Jan 2020 #301
not sure what you mean with that "contradiction"....

The EU has goals that are self-contradictory.

It is impossible to integrate manufacturing, finance and service economies and to maintain solidarity at the same time. It wants to integrate without assimilating.

Historical and cultural differences result in different types of economies. It's possible to create conditions where different kinds of economies interact. It's not possible to create a single economic system without interfering in culture (and maybe rewriting history).

Making Italians accept German economic values is impossible unless you turn them into southern Germans.... (not an overt goal that Italians are liable to welcome).
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
19 Jan 2020 #302
It is impossible to integrate manufacturing, finance and service economies and to maintain solidarity at the same time.

I disagree...it's necessary to maintain solidarity. After all I'm much more inclined to support people close to me than outsiders...Germans being solidary with Greeks was pushing it, especially as it became known that for example greek pensioners got earlier more support than german pensioners, so it was hard to explain to german poor pensioners why they should pay so that the greek pensioners could live on better than them.

But if the social systems for example would be all integrated then all pensioners had the same rights and duties, no matter if they live in Greece or Germany and it would be much easier to feel solidary towards each other.

Making Italians accept German economic values is impossible unless you turn them into southern Germans

There is no economically "good" country nor an economically "bad" country.

Every country has it's economically well off, successful regions and it's poor, less developed regions. That has nothing to do with the EU. But they get now support funds from the EU with the chance to invest in these regions, to develop them.

But without any closer integration nobody from the outside...say...from Brussels... can influence how the national gov is using these support funds, so it happens that poor regions stay poor, but that is not the fault of the EU and those support funds.

To make better choices to help with the development of poorer regions it would need a common economical ministry/department...but that would mean again much closer integrated economies!

The only thing that would happen outside the EU is that they either would have to chuck out this support by themselves now again or cut it out. That's the only options! These regions won't become developed now just because the country decided to leave the EU...there is no sense in that!
mafketis 23 | 8,360
19 Jan 2020 #303
Tbetter choices to help with the development of poorer regions it would need a common economical ministry/department..

See? You can't maintain solidarity (say support funds) and local autonomy (which will often be corrupt).

It's the foreign aid problem all over again.

social systems for example would be all integrated .all pensioners had the same rights and duties, no matter if they live in

so would pensions be tied to absolute amounts or percentage of average national income... Portuguese retirees receiving the same monetary amounts as Swedes.... doable?
Torq 32 | 2,999
19 Jan 2020 #304
Portuguese retirees receiving the same monetary amounts as Swedes.... doable?

Hmm... at first it doesn't seem sensible at all, considering the cost of living in Portugal and Sweden, but in the long run... - if Swedish pensioners would have higher standard of living for their pensions in Portugal (especially that they could probably buy better standard houses in Portugal for the money they would get for selling their houses in Sweden), they might simply move there, and if they did that en masse the cost of living in Portugal would rise. Something analogical might happen in Poland and Germany, and all the other EU regions really, so that eventually there would be no point of moving anywhere, as pensions/cost of living would eventually be on a very similar level. Just a theoretical thought experiment. Of course, it would be rather unfair, as Swedish or German pensioners would throughout their lifetime contribute much more to the pension funds than Portuguese or Polish pensioners.

Besides, one has to consider the willingness of 65+ people to move to a completely different country, learn a new language etc.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
19 Jan 2020 #305
It's the foreign aid problem all over again.

Why is that a problem? The EU shucks out support funds since the beginning! I never heard anybody complaining on the receiving end...

It's no accident that one argument for the Brexiters is that they no longer want to pay for the "EU-slackers"...but "local autonomy" somehow never featured much with the receiver populations.

Portuguese retirees receiving the same monetary amounts as Swedes.... doable?

In a closely integrated European Federation...logical!
Ironside 49 | 10,282
19 Jan 2020 #306
'not caring' what goes on in there would be stupid

I mean 'caring' and being formally a part of it are two different issues.

. You cant habe agreements without forceful rules,

sure but that mostly has to do with the economy or some such, spreading a red toltrlitrian ideology it is something different, Marx statue in Brussels is there for a reason..

Also reshaping rules to suit French or German interests are not a part of the agreement/ Polish transport companies are basically being kicked out of those countries, It is going back on a treaty. how about Poland start kicking out French or German companies from Poland?

I understand.

I think you understand very little and you care even less, what you enjoy is paying a lip serves to issues that do not affect you at all but gave you a feeling that you are a good man cause you support 'morally just cause' or you just go with the flow. In fact you are just a lame dick.
Spike31 3 | 1,610
19 Jan 2020 #307
Do you think solidarity is ideological?

A word "solidarity" suggests that something is done on a voluntary basis because a given group or a society thinks that it is a right thing to do. And they are willingly doing that.

However, when the action is enforced by some governing body a word "solidarity" losses its original meaning. It becomes a form of opression. Pushing unwanted refugees from Germany to Poland against Polish will in the name of a false "solidarity" is an act of opression.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
19 Jan 2020 #308
However, when the action is enforced by some governing body a word "solidarity" losses its original meaning

It's the same with taxes!

Every democratic gov demands them...and all people are nagging about it!

If left to be fully voluntarily there would be much less of it....but also much less of infrastructure, usable streets, medical and educational services, military, police security, welfare for the old and sick, pensions and what not.

It's the solidarity of a nation...and totally enforced!

Pushing unwanted refugees from Germany to Poland against Polish will in the name of a false "solidarity" is an act of opression.

Tell me again how many of these refugees pushed Germany into Poland exactly?
mafketis 23 | 8,360
19 Jan 2020 #309
Poland showed an amazing amount of solidarity in explaining to Germany just how dysfunctional its migration policy was!
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,752
19 Jan 2020 #311
Every democratic gov demands them...and all people are nagging about it!

No! People are pis*ed off when they see the taxes they paid to fund useful projects - like clean water and dirty sewers - squandered on (1) stupid wars, (2) crony deals, (3) obscene pensions,... You get the drift.

In fact, in many school districts here, people vote directly for more taxes if they are convinced their kids will benefit. But even in those cases, the new money typically does not end up in the classrooms but in the gold-plated teacher retirement funds.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
19 Jan 2020 #312
No! People are pis*ed off

It's very rare that people are happy paying their taxes...but if not enforced, the gov would starve to death, so would soon many people. Once advanced rich societies would soon look like african third world pits (with only a few have-it-alls) including rising instability and violent conflicts.
Spike31 3 | 1,610
19 Jan 2020 #313
It's the same with taxes!

Taxes - the lower the better - are a necessary evil in a modern society and they benefit the nation with beneficial services like a strong army, police and an effective administrative apparatus.

Night-watchman state* model comes in mind and that's the type of a govenment which has my support. In Poland the closest political party to this model is Konfederacja.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night-watchman_state

So don't compare paying taxes to taking in German muslim refugees. A people without any work qualifications, often without any papers, and from a different culture which is openly hostile towards Christianity and our way of living. That is an unnecessary evil which only generates costs, social unrest and brings no value whatsoever.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
19 Jan 2020 #314
So don't compare paying taxes to taking in German muslim refugees.

You have been really traumatized by that, haven't you....

But I too hope such a situation never unfolds again!
Spike31 3 | 1,610
19 Jan 2020 #315
Tell me again how many of these refugees pushed Germany into Poland exactly?

None. But not because Germany and the EU didn't wanted to do that. It is only only because of Polish opposition that this project has failed.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
19 Jan 2020 #316
So...how does that fact compute with the build image of the EU as the "mean dictatorial german led oppressor" in Brussels? The "yoke of the polish people"? :)

Poland just said "no" and that was it...
TheOther 6 | 3,821
19 Jan 2020 #317
German muslim refugees

What do you call the tens of thousands of refugees that were already in Greece and Italy before Merkel opened her mouth?
cms neuf - | 1,573
19 Jan 2020 #318
So in your night watchman state there is no education ? No roads? No health service ? No pensions ?
Spike31 3 | 1,610
19 Jan 2020 #319
You have been really traumatized by that, haven't you....

No, actually I'm quite happy about it.

In my opinion Poland has benefited from that situation in two major ways:

1) it opened the eyes for many Poles about the true intentions and goals of the "EU core"

2) it helped right-wing and conservative movements to grow and to gain support among society.

All that good stuff without taking in even a single muslim "refugee". The threat was real though, yet the society has mobilized against it.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
19 Jan 2020 #320
1) it opened the eyes for many Poles about the true intentions and goals of the "EU core"

So....since the "true intentions and goals of the EU" have been officially rejected by the Poles...what now?
Spike31 3 | 1,610
19 Jan 2020 #321
Now we have to build a critical mass of the EU sceptics in Poland just like the Brits did in the UK. We have to convince most Poles that by now the benefits of the EU are outweighed by its drawbacks. And the EU core is only making it easier for us.

Basically, the only thing in a modern EU which is really beneficial for Poland is a single market. So the whole challenge lies in rejecting the EU neomarxism while taking part in a free trade and growing the economy as long as it's possible.

In this case time works for us and Poles are very resilient as you must know by now. And the young generation in Poland is more right wing, more EU sceptic than the mid-aged folks.

Apart of that we have to collaborate with the other EUsceptic (a word "eurosceptic" is misleading) countries on how to reverse this project into a decentralized European Economic Area. Or to deconstruct it and rebuild it in a better form.
cms neuf - | 1,573
19 Jan 2020 #323
And I guess that for you the drawbacks are something in relevant about immigration, something irrelevant about Muslims and something irrelevant about gay marriage?

Will be tough to convince people that those outweigh making a richer, safer, healthier, and having more opportunities.
Spike31 3 | 1,610
19 Jan 2020 #324
So in your night watchman state there is no education ? No roads? No health service ? No pensions ?

Well, it's not mine. It is over a century old idea. Right libertarianism operates on a basis that a private enterprises are, due to competition and more rational spendings and investments, far more efficient than a state owned ones.

Let's take for an example the universities in the US. The best of them: Harvard, MIT, Stanford etc. are private ones.

And also a health system in the US is largely operated by a private sector.
cms neuf - | 1,573
19 Jan 2020 #325
And if you can't afford to go to Stanford ? What then ?

What about primary school ? What about teaching people to read and arithmetic ?

US life expectancy is lower than in high tax EU countries so why follow that rule ?

What about pensions ?

What about roads ?
Miloslaw 7 | 3,216
19 Jan 2020 #326
it opened the eyes for many Poles about the true intentions and goals of the "EU core"

You are spot on in your analysis mate!

Will be tough to convince people that those outweigh making a richer, safer, healthier, and having more opportunities

I don't think so.
People in favour of the EU give far too much weight to economic "benefits" and "opportunities", there is a huge world outside of the restricted, stagnant EU.

Poland is not ready to leave the EU just yet but when the success of the UK post Brexit is seen, it will embolden them to consider leaving too...... and then the whole deck of cards that this false union has been created upon will start to collapse.

This is the beginning of the end of the EU..... a failed project because people pushed too hard....
TheOther 6 | 3,821
19 Jan 2020 #327
Right libertarianism ... universities in the US ... health system in the US

I take it that you never set foot on American soil. Otherwise you wouldn't praise our crazy "healthcare" system and our overprized private universities as shining examples for the superiority of libertarianism. It's exactly the opposite.
cms neuf - | 1,573
19 Jan 2020 #328
Ok - so tell me some of the soft or emotional benefits of Poland leaving the EU. And why would they outweigh health and security? Of course you spend no time here so you have not much to go on
mafketis 23 | 8,360
19 Jan 2020 #329
wouldn't praise our crazy "healthcare" system

In which you never know how much something will cost and even if you have insurance out the wazoo you spend massive amounts of time doing insane paperwork.

Bonus: Many doctors don't accept cash and will only work through the insane insurance system.

And, it's essentially a criminal enterprise (and the pharmaceutical industry is even worse)

newser.com/story/284712/she-had-a-routine-throat-swab-the-bill-was-28k.html
Spike31 3 | 1,610
19 Jan 2020 #330
And if you can't afford to go to Stanford ? What then ?

I took a programming in a private Polish-Japanese Academy of Information Technology in Warsaw and paid for it from my part-time job. And I'm satisfied.

What about primary school ? What about teaching people to read and arithmetic ?

There are private schools of all levels, even in a post-PRL Poland. And they are affordable. This market is still growing and developing in Poland.

Examples from Warsaw:

ourkids.net/pl-en/primary-schools-in-warsaw.php

And do I have to remind you that people send their kids to private schools while still paying in taxes for the state schools which they don't use? If state schools were better they would not pay double.

What about pensions ?

In the UK many companies provide a workplace pension. We should take an example and promote it in Poland. Apart of that there are private pension funds. The money that you're currently paying for a state pension you easily could transfer to a private entity.

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