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Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU


cms neuf - | 1,589
19 Jan 2020 #331
God only knows this night watchman state thing withstands about 2 minutes of discussion. But it's surprisingly popular among Kowin Mike followers
Miloslaw 7 | 3,264
19 Jan 2020 #332
And why would they outweigh health and security?

So now you have dropped "Economic benefits"and "Opportunities" from your argument and based it on health and security.
What has health in Poland got to do with the EU?
And as for security, that is down to NATO, again, not the EU.....
cms neuf - | 1,589
19 Jan 2020 #333
I dropped those because you said some people only measure economic benefits.

It is not only about NATO - the EU has a great deal of police and border cooperation. And war is less likely when your economies and supply chains are joined.

As for health then the EU makes drugs and equipment cheaper but rising living standards, lower unemployment all have huge effects on public health.

So what are the benefits of leaving the EU for a Pole, in Poland ?
Spike31 3 | 1,637
19 Jan 2020 #334
I take it that you never set foot on American soil

Nope. I've travelled around Europe and Asia but never set a foot in the US. That doesn't stop me from understanding a principle (and advantages) of a private education system.

And since those universities occupy the top of the list of the best in the world they must be managed better than state-owned ones.

God only knows this night watchman state thing withstands about 2 minutes of discussio

Is that you final substantive argument? :-)
cms neuf - | 1,589
19 Jan 2020 #335
Nope - who would check your Japanese school was a real school ? Who would make sure those companies pension schemes invested it safely ?

Who would supervise airports ? The police can protect property but not stop people speeding (even though there wouldn't be any roads). Who would give accurate weather forecasts ? Who would make sure my beer wasn't poisonous ?

And the only place for police to recruit is in private primary schools ?

Btw - UK companies have pension schemes because it used to be the law. Where it is not the law (like in Poland) they don't have them. Chances of such a system being voluntarily implemented and self regulated are zero.

I'm not sure Harvard and Stanford are managed better - they are old and have the benefit of the English language to attract the worlds best teachers - just like state run Oxford and Cambridge which are always in those top 10 lists.

In Poland for instance stare run universities have far better students than most private ones.
Spike31 3 | 1,637
19 Jan 2020 #336
Nope - who would check your Japanese school was a real school ?

The best indicator of a good school are skills acquired by students in the process. Probation period would tell the future employer whether it was real or not.

Many state owned schools in Poland educate students which has a lot of theorethical knowledge and not enough practical skills. Private schools cannot afford to produce such a sub-standard results cause they have to attract paying students in the future.

Who would make sure my beer wasn't poisonous ?

Poisonous beer would sell worse than a regular one I presume ;-) Is this a real argument?

Chances of such a system being voluntarily implemented and self regulated are zero.

The inneficient system which is in place in Poland now wasn't voluntary implemented but enforced by a previous communist government. And it's about to go bancrupt. Changing it for a more efficient system based on a private funds would not only be logical but necessary.

Just ot be clear. A minimal state, a watchman state, doesn't eliminate the state as a whole but greatly reduces its size - thus reducing the operating costs payed in taxes - and the competences of the state which incleases the amount of freedom for its citizens.
toboyek 1 | 4
19 Jan 2020 #337
I am of Polish heritage from the US and do not like the way that state's rights are being dimished here and fear our union may not last forever with the extremist liberal views being pushed these days. I sympathize with the EU members who are seeing their sovereignty be trampled by globalist powers running the show. Being forced to take immigrants who despise western ideals and being told more and more of how you need to run your country to be compliant is not what forefathers died for. The EU will fall apart someday and I hope Poland gets out before it does.
cms neuf - | 1,589
19 Jan 2020 #338
But the Wikipedia link you sent talks about police, army and laws to protect property. This is a medieval system that would only ever benefit the people who had money at the time it was set up.

The state performs thousands of functions and generally the more advanced a state's role is the richer the country is - the highest living standards are in high tax countries, and mostly that comes with a good balance of freedom and citizens rights. I am generally a free markets, low tax person myself but I would rather live in Sweden than in Somalia.

There are some activitIes like public sanitation, protecting wildlife or looking after disabled people that will never be profitable - in your nightwatchman state then those people and animals would presumably be left in the street (except there would not be any streets because it's not profitable to maintain them).
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,752
19 Jan 2020 #339
Sweden than in Somalia.

So would Somalians. Move over, Swedes.
cms neuf - | 1,589
19 Jan 2020 #340
Exactly - you would think the Somalis would be happy with their minimalist state !

What actually happens there is the person most able to control security temporarily also controls food and water - no wonder people want to leave
TheOther 6 | 3,821
19 Jan 2020 #341
And since those universities occupy the top of the list of the best in the world they must be managed better than state-owned

Ivy League colleges and other top universities charge outrageous amounts for tuition alone. You have to ask yourself who can afford that kind of money. Scholarships help a little, but you also have to pay for living expenses, books, insurance ... you name it.

it's essentially a criminal enterprise (and the pharmaceutical industry is even worse)

I wouldn't call it criminal, but the system is set up to take advantage of both patients and doctors. The pharmaceuticals have a quasi monopoly here and are protected by laws that prohibit the import of drugs for personal use ( fda.gov/about-fda/fda-basics/it-legal-me-personally-import-drugs ). The doctors are threatened by law suits (litigation) and have to shell out enormous amounts of money to buy coverage. Health insurers charge a fortune, but often refuse to cover certain medications and procedures. If you want the best treatment, you'll have to pay out of pocket. If you're good with something generic, your insurance might pay.

Praise libertarianism? Don't think so.
Spike31 3 | 1,637
19 Jan 2020 #342
Exactly - you would think the Somalis would be happy with their minimalist state !

They don't have a civilisational foundations to run one or even to be able to comprehend its basic mechanics. What is suitable for an intelligent Europeans with their work ethics and rich traditions wouldn't work in Africa. To be honest nothing works, or ever worked, in Africa except perhaps of the Republic of South Africa.
mafketis 23 | 8,404
19 Jan 2020 #343
I wouldn't call it criminal, but the system is set up to take advantage of both patients and doctors

Rico violations!

The pharmaceuticals

What do you know about the Sacklers? Responsible for the deaths of thousands.... why are they free when small time pot sellers are put behind bars?
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,752
19 Jan 2020 #344
in Africa except perhaps of the Republic of South Africa.

...because it was constructed and operated by whites. And now, like in Zimbabwe,...you know the rest...
TheOther 6 | 3,821
20 Jan 2020 #345
why are they free

Because they have the money to pay the best defense attorneys.
Torq 32 | 2,999
20 Jan 2020 #346
Tell that to the socialists running the EU and expect to be publicly lynched

Maybe not lynched but definitely ridiculed.

At the end of the day, it all boils down to the basics - your core values. That's why I am optimistic about Poland's future. As long as we remain a Catholic country (and I can't see that changing in foreseeable future), we will have this natural armour against all sorts of nonsense.

Poland should stay in the EU, as a representative of the original European Union idea of Schuman, Adenauer and De Gasperi (all practising Catholics, building the union on firm neo-scholastic foundations), even if today Spinelli is the most respected founding father. *shivers*
Crow 139 | 8,609
20 Jan 2020 #347
What is most important, EU and western Europe losing its power rapidly and they won`t be able to harm Poland when Poland depart and say - Adios el enemigo!
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590
20 Jan 2020 #348
That's why I am optimistic about Poland's future. As long as we remain a Catholic country

I really wouldn't bind the future of a country to a religion, any religion!

Poland isn't any exception. The more modernization, the less religiousity....

4liberty.eu/strange-death-of-the-catholic-church-in-poland/

"....Over 90% of Poles still declare belonging to the Catholic faith, yet, less than 40% go to church...."

It's the same everywhere....a majority of Germans would call themselves Christians...but besides gift exchanges at Christmas and enjoying sleep-ins during free workdays with the name of once christian holy days there isn't any belief or religiousity anymore...

I think that is a fight you will lose in a generation or two...the idea that Poles differ in that to the rest of the West is wishful thinking. As millions of young Poles have left highly religious Poland for alot less religious western Europe, and most are not coming back. They don't seem to miss their church!

What I found interesting though is that a majority of religious Poles isn't happy about PiS....and the closeness between the polish Church and this party!

translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fciekaweliczby.pl%2F63-polakow-uwaza-ze-kosciol-powinien-zachowac-neutralnosc-wobec-polityki-pis-sondaz%2F

A non-political Church is preferred by far....that's the same in Germany too btw..

But where does that leave the ones who (want to) use the religion for politic causes?

....As long as we remain a Catholic country (and I can't see that changing in foreseeable future), we will have this natural armour against all sorts of nonsense.

That doesn't seem like a winning argument in the long run....as most Poles are against such thinking it seems!
Crow 139 | 8,609
20 Jan 2020 #349
That doesn't seem like a winning argument in the long ru

Its complex terrain. Pope of Rome and his apprentice from Constantinople too often harmed Poland. Betrayed and harmed. Still, any Christian Church and priest is good as able to keep us in contact with tradition that is even older then Christianity. We Slavs are people of tradition and, with a reason. And we are Slavs. By every new day it prove to be critical.
Torq 32 | 2,999
20 Jan 2020 #350
I really wouldn't bind the future of a country to a religion, any religion!

Unless, of course, it is the One and Only, True Religion.

The more modernization, the less religiousity...

Saudi Arabia begs to differ ;)

They don't seem to miss their church!

Remember that I was an emigrant too, and all the Poles I knew back then in Dublin attended Polish Masses (even though it would be easier for most of them to go to a nerby Irish parish). Christianity is too deeply ingrained in Polish souls, and connected with the very core of polishness, for it to be uprooted in a generation or two.

What I found interesting though is that a majority of religious Poles isn't happy about PiS....and the closeness between the polish Church and this party!

Of course!

Of course, most Poles (worthy of that name), find it abhorrent, and I shall repeat it again - ABHORRENT and completely alien to the Polish spirit, to see the Church and PiS in a form of caesaropapist alliance. Such, as you said, closeness of church and state is more typical of orthodox or islamic states, not the Catholic ones. Church in Poland is losing mass-goers at a very rapid pace, because of their alliance with PiS. They are sacrificing their unifying and pan-Polish position for short term financial gains. I am both amazed and appalled by the shortsightedness of Polish hierarchy.

Q: Why do Polish Catholics envy Catholics in other European countries?
A: Becauste they have episcopates, and Poland has an ePiScopate.

...it would be rather funny, if it wasn't so sad.

When I said that I hope Poland would remain a Catholic country (and I deeply believe she will, with the help of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and Saint Virgin Mary Queen of Poland), I didn't mean a country happy with National-Socialist government and Folk Church touching each other's dicks - that's NOT Catholic. I meant that the core values of our nation, expressed in Church's teachings regarding social/economic basis of wealth and well-being of nations (as expressed, for example, in Rerum Novarum encyclical), love of your neighbour, the strength of Family, protection of unborn life, work ethics (Ora et Labora - benedictine way), frugality, restraint and humility, will always be upheld and defended by Polish people.

Supporting what the earthly institution of Polish Catholic church does on a daily basis, is a completely different matter altogether. Polish ePiScopate does NOT represent majority of Polish Catholics.

It's complicated, I know, but so is Poland. :)
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590
20 Jan 2020 #351
Unless, of course, it is the One and Only, True Religion.

Of course! I meant to mention that.... ;)
Torq 32 | 2,999
20 Jan 2020 #352
;)

Thanks for the link to the article - I agree with most of it, as you can see.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590
20 Jan 2020 #353
Spike will beg to differ though....you are both staunch Catholics who love their country, you fight it out! :)
Torq 32 | 2,999
20 Jan 2020 #354
...and you will grab a popcorn and watch the fight? :)

There will be no fight though. Everything will happen slowly and peacefully: PiS has a very narrow majority in the Sejm, they lost the Senat already, and this year, with God's help, their candidate will lose presidential elections, and Poland with breathe a deep sigh of relief. I'll pray for that.
Lenka 3 | 1,966
20 Jan 2020 #355
Can I ask who would you choose to replace him? An honest question since it's not that often when I meet religious people not happy with PiS. Or maybe I don't have the opportunity to ask them.

I know Spike goes for konfederacja so no mystery there. I can only ask if he is happy with Bosak as a candidate as some Korwin voters are quite unhapppy...
Spike31 3 | 1,637
20 Jan 2020 #356
I can only ask if he is happy with Bosak as a candidate

Lenka, I am happy with K. Bosak. He is educated, logical and eloquent. And what's the most important for a presidential candidate: he can keep his emotions at bay even in the middle of the most heated political discussion.
Torq 32 | 2,999
20 Jan 2020 #357
As you well know, Lenka, political elections in Poland are more often than not a question of chosing the lesser evil, and according to that tradition I will most probably vote for Władysław Kosiniak-Kamysz, a sensible centrist candidate, unlikely to antagonise any group of voters - exactly what Poland needs in these turbulent times.

He is educated

Educated?

"W latach 2001-2004 studiował architekturę na Politechnice Wrocławskiej[3]. Odbył kurs dziennikarski w Wyższej Szkole Kultury Społecznej i Medialnej w Toruniu[4]. W latach 2004-2008 studiował zaocznie ekonomię w Szkole Głównej Handlowej w Warszawie[3][5]. Studiował również zaocznie filozofię na prywatnej uczelni. Żadnych z wymienionych studiów nie ukończył[6]. "

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krzysztof_Bosak

Also, has he ever had any REAL job in his entire life?
gumishu 11 | 5,191
20 Jan 2020 #358
and Poland with breathe a deep sigh of relief

because?

I would like to see the logic behind your statement
Torq 32 | 2,999
20 Jan 2020 #359
because?

I'm afraid that honest answer to this question would border on insulting the Office the person in question holds, and I would rather like to avoid that.

Let me just say that Poland deserves a better president, and that's all you will hear from me about Andrzej Duda.
gumishu 11 | 5,191
20 Jan 2020 #360
Let me just say that Poland deserves a better president, and that's all you will hear from me about Andrzej Duda.

you mean like someone who is all like :'change jobs, take credit' Komorowski or more like Biedroń

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