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Poland is the new military power of Europe.


Novichok 4 | 7,927
10 Jun 2023 #181
Why can we Germans accept our failures and so many Brits can't?

Because God likes the French, Germans, and Hungarians more and gave them 90% of the brain allocated to Europe.
Lyzko 45 | 9,417
10 Jun 2023 #182
@Milo, kindly re-read my post and then it'll make complete sense:-)
Tacitus 2 | 1,382
10 Jun 2023 #183
the greatest political project that has ever been undertaken

There is hardly a project more worthy of such praise. The EU embodies all the positive political ideals that have been coined in Europe. Democracy and cooperation between states of all sizes. The EU is by its' nature the very opposite of imperialism. There is no supranation l entity in which even the smallest member has that much influence like e.g. Luxembourg has on many issues.

it's a Franco-German political project rather than economic cooperation

The EU was always a political project with the goal of a peaceful and united Europe. Which is why the argument of the Brexiteers of being "deceived" over the true nature are such nonsense.

It is matter of great pride that Germany has done a lot over the years to keep the EU working, similiarly to how the British are proud of their countries deeds during the WWs. It is not a "Franco-German project" to the extent that it includes others, all the member states have a stake in it and it has been used very effectively by smaller states to further their interests.

Trying to put the EU in a tradition with Hitler or talking about imperialistic ambitions of some member states is really devaluing the meaning of those historical experiences.

On a side note this rhetoric mirrors Putin's views on the NATO as an imperialistic American project for American hegemony. The only politician in our proximity who is still rooted in imperialistic dreams is Putin. All the others have moved on. They still make mistakes and miscalculations, but that simple fact should be easy enough to acknowledge.

Euroarmy' and Poland wanted to use it but France, Germany, Italy, wherever, didn't want them to use it?

What kind of scenario are you imagining? Under which circumstances would Poland want to use an army, but the other European armies would not?
jon357 74 | 22,054
10 Jun 2023 #184
@Tacitus
Who are you replying to? Aside from being off-topic, your quotes are missing the name. Is your computer broken?

Under which circumstances would Poland want to use an army, but the other European armies would not?

Poland took part in the coalition against Saddam Hussein. France opposed that war. In your fantasy army, would France be able to stop Poland taking part in defending against a dictator elsewhere again?
Tacitus 2 | 1,382
10 Jun 2023 #185
France opposed that war.

That they did, along with Germany and other countries and history has more than vindicated that decision. The illegal invasion of Iraq is a blight on the reputation of the USA and those who participated in it, which sadly included Poland.

It is up to the member states to decide under which conditions an European army would operate. I can imagine that it would naturally act automatically in case of self-defence if a member state gets attacked, since we have already similar provisions in NATO and the EU. There will hopefully be restrictions against using it as a colonial expedition force, but who knows what the countries will come up with.

from being off-topic

Hardly. I always made sure to include Poland and its' military future in my posts, which naturally include talks about closer military cooperation with other European countries.
jon357 74 | 22,054
10 Jun 2023 #186
@Tacitus
Who are you replying to? For some reason the names are missing from your quotes. Is there a reason for that?

history

So in fact you're confirming that Poland would not have the power or authority to use its armed forces without the say so of other countries.

I doubt they'd ever agree to that.
Tacitus 2 | 1,382
10 Jun 2023 #187
I doubt they'd ever agree to that.

We shall see. If it becomes clear that Poland - like any European country - can no longer finance a credible military deterrence on its' own then the prospect of losing the ability of waging unilateral colonial wars in other parts of the world might no longer look like such a big sacrifice.

Pragmatism will lead to the creation of a European army. Keeping the welfare and pension system afloat will be a big motivation.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,823
10 Jun 2023 #188
....especially as Poland is not known for colonial wars to exploit far away countries....

I very much doubt Poland would have a problem with not-doing that....less a problem than...say....Britain?

A more realistic case would be another Iraq-war....a lone decision by Washington, never recognized by the EU, the UN or even NATO.....will the US do that ever again? With it's attention on China?

Doubtful....after all we would no longer talking of a weak Poland lacking self-esteem, hoping to be recognized and awarded by the US for it's loyalty.

The future Poland is strong, militarily and economically, a leader of the EU with lotsa influence and self confidence....why the hell should they lick foreign boots for nothing ever again???

After all what did Poland gain from their loyalty? The US did not reward them, didn't they....that was another hard lesson!
jon357 74 | 22,054
10 Jun 2023 #189
@Tacitus
Who are you replying to? The names are missing from your quotes. Why is that?
Tacitus 2 | 1,382
10 Jun 2023 #190
@Bratwurst Boy

especially as Poland is not known for colonial wars to exploit far away countries

Which was why I asked for scenarios because I could not really understand why Poland would want to use the military over the objection of other states. One of the advantages Poland enjoys over Western countries is the lack of colonial ties to other parts of the world. Unlike France or the UK it has no misconceptions of imperial grandeur and does not seem likely to engage in other military adventures. Especially now when its' military plans are (understandably) fully focused on deterrence against Russia. I suspect that if Poland agreed to join a European army, it would be interested in making sure that it would not be used on such endeavours.

Come to which I'd be interested to know if Poland also plans to build modern ammunition production chains? The war in Ukraine has reminded us how much ammunition is used up each day in modern wars and all those fancy Himars and Krabs are of little use without it.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,823
10 Jun 2023 #191
.....yeah....maybe some polish posters could provide more insight into these plans....
Kashub1410 6 | 690
10 Jun 2023 #192
@Tacitus
Would you consider the liberation of North Korea as a colonial war of lead by U.S.A? I wouldn't

The war against Saddam Hussein I see fully as legitimate, the irresponsibility afterwards and full on damage and abuse of Iraq is another story, which to my understanding was already happening but, propelled to unknown dimension due to the lack of a firm hand and clear show of who is leader among peoples in Iraq. Wolf flock lost it's wolf pack leader, so wolf packs emerged and began eating wolf cubs

With regard to Poland's military use and capacity, it's main concern is allied support in an event of invasion from a foreign power, EU army used as an international police force legally is a valid concern, and seeing how Sweden has pushed recently above the heads of Poland due to technicalities with a migration pact, EU seems more distant then ever
jon357 74 | 22,054
10 Jun 2023 #193
it's main concern is allied support in an event of invasion from a foreign power

Quite. Or any other aim Poland may have. It would be a poor show if another country were able to veto Poland's use of its armed forces or insist they buy armaments, tanks, planes for a particular country.

The war against Saddam Hussein I see fully as legitimate

Yes, of course it was. Saddam was the aggressor and had invaded Kuwait and held hostages. There are certain countries in Europe that I won't name who pay ransom when hostages are taken, however neither of the two European countries involved in the struggle against Saddam's aggression do that.

Interesting that 5en calls for Poland no longer to have full sovereignty over her own armed forces and decision making are from somewhere that would stand to gain from that.

seem likely to engage in other military adventures

You presumably mean naval or military action on behalf of others or ourselves. It's what we do and that will not change any time soon?

What's with the missing names in your quotes.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,823
10 Jun 2023 #194
Or any other aim Poland may have.

.....I don't remember having you such concerns regarding Germany or France?

There is always sounds like fear of what they could do with such a military....not what they wouldn't be allowed to do....rather curious, isn't it! :)

Frankly....both World Wars would be avoided with a common army....with a Union as the EU already in place....that alone are enough good arguments!
jon357 74 | 22,054
10 Jun 2023 #195
I don't remember having you such concerns regarding Germany or France?

I don't remember living in and being a citizen of either of those.

Frankly....both World Wars would be avoided with a common army

Oh, the irony. Can anyone see an obvious flaw in that statement?

Amazing that there are people stil going on about a non-existent 'Euroarmy' in a thread about the current Polish armed forces.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,823
10 Jun 2023 #196
Oh, the irony. Can anyone see an obvious flaw in that statement?

Do tell....
Tacitus 2 | 1,382
10 Jun 2023 #197
@Kashub1410

liberation of North Korea

Depends on the circumstances. If North Korea once again invades South Korea and gets repelled, then I would argue that a subsequent campaign to also liberate North Korea would be justified.

The USA deciding to invade North Korea tomorrow without provocation would be a different matter. The fat Kim has a nightmarish regime, but the international community has rules on when the use of force is justified for very good reasons.

The first war against Saddam Hussein to liberate Kuwait was of course fully justified. Just as the war in 2003 was obviously illegal due to the lack of any legal justification. That it also made things much worse for the people in Iraq and neighbouring countries is another matter. One could now point out how participation in that illegal invasion is a sign that a certain country is yet struggling to leave its' bloody imperialistic past behind it, but I digress.

Russia's invasion of Ukraine has at least made it less likely that Poland, or any European country would contemplate another military adventurer in another part of the world in the future.

Sweden has pushed recently

What has Sweden done to Poland?

@Bratwurst Boy

with a Union as the EU already in place.

True, but then again few Europeans back then would have identified with the ideals of the EU. Most had autocratic and imperialistic sympathies.

Really a shame that it took us that long to learn the lesson, but at least it stuck.
jon357 74 | 22,054
10 Jun 2023 #198
was obviously illegal

There have been other individuals who've suggested that, however their attempts to force a prosecution all failed. Why? Because it was entirely legal.

Here's a question. If your pan-European armed force ever existed and if the U.K.'s army and navy were part of it, and Argentina were to annexe the Falklands and the U.K. wished to liberate the Falklanders, would France or Spain be able to exercise a veto on that?
OP Miloslaw 19 | 4,914
10 Jun 2023 #199
Amazing that there are people stil going on about a non-existent 'Euroarmy' in a thread about the current Polish armed forces

Spot on!
These Euro Fanatics have got their heads up their Ar$es,
Poland is building up it's military to defend Poland.
Not to defend Europe.
Germany and France please take note!
Novichok 4 | 7,927
10 Jun 2023 #200
Poland is building up it's military to defend Poland.

Did anybody tell Russia that it is supposed to attack Poland?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,823
10 Jun 2023 #201
Germany and France please take note!

Sure.....we will do it!

....and Poland will sit on the sideline, with all of its shiny, beefed up army and watch.....I can just see that before my inner eye! :)
OP Miloslaw 19 | 4,914
10 Jun 2023 #202
Did anybody tell Russia that it is supposed to attack Poland?

Nobody needed to.It's what Russia does.

.and Poland will sit on the sideline, with all of its shiny, beefed up army and watch

If you Germans don't wake up, yes!
Tacitus 2 | 1,382
10 Jun 2023 #203
Because it was entirely legal.

We had this discussion before. As pointed out back then, there is no legal justification for the invasion. It was not in self-defense, nor sanctioned by the UN. As such it was an illegal war.

Putin may never stand trial because power dynamics may prevent this from happening. Does that mean that his invasion of Ukraine is legal?

would France or Spain be able to exercise a veto

It would defeat the purpose of a European army if it could not act in self-defense.

Coincidentally the UK best hope of protecting the Falklands long-term is probably an EU army given that financing the necessary fleet is increasingly beyond them. Bit that is matter after the UK rejoins.

@Bratwurst Boy

and Poland will sit on the sideline

Dont mind that one bid. The stronger Poland becomes, the securer we are. I am just worried that they might end up overdoing it and thus financially ruining themselves.
amiga500 4 | 1,540
11 Jun 2023 #204
Poland would want to use the military over the objection of other states

To liberate Belarus?

Wars would be avoided with a common army

it would have started as a civil war.. (rolls eyes)

. I am just worried that they might end up overdoing it

Spare us your concern trolling, you don't give a sh*t about poland, only the recreation of your Reich, but PC this time.
Novichok 4 | 7,927
11 Jun 2023 #205
As pointed out back then, there is no legal justification for the invasion.

Was Israel justified in invading Syria in 1967?
Pawloff
11 Jun 2023 #206
Let Poland spend a gazillion $$$ on arms and military. The Polish taxpayers will ultimately pay for the inflated ego of their politicians, and on the long run it will bankrupt Poland the same way it bankrupted the USSR and currently the USA. If that is what Poland wants, more power to them. The rest of Europe will thank you for voluntarily becoming the prime target of Russian nukes.
johnny reb 48 | 7,091
11 Jun 2023 #207
The Polish taxpayers will ultimately pay

Be a damn shame if Poland had to start paying for their own healthcare and college tuitions wouldn't it.
jon357 74 | 22,054
11 Jun 2023 #208
We had this discussion before

And you're still as wrong now as you were then, unless there's been a court decision that nobody except you has heard about.

It would defeat the purpose of a European army if it could not act in self-defense

That answer is evidently to a different question. The question posed? You don't want to answer it, do you.

You don't want Poland to be a fully independent so e reign state with complete control over its armed forces.

And what's with your quotes? Why do you remove names?

Spare us your concern trolling, you don't give a sh*t about poland, only the recreation of your Reich

That is all too clear.

The two Germans have tried to turn a thread on Poland as a military power into a thread on something else entirely, have tried to attack me since I'm originally from the U.K., even though the U.K. is neutral in such issues and cooperates strongly with Poland in military matters, and were oddly and irrelevantly banging on about Brexit, and most bizarrely the UK's former overseas possessions, something we were busy divesting ourselves of for moral reasons while their country was illegally rearming in order to invade Poland, and showing a certain outrage about Poland having its own defence industry and sourcing weapons etc from wherever they want.

They won't even answer straightforward questions since they know the answers are unpalatable to Polish readers and at least one of the hadn't even bothered to read the article this thread is about. Talk about a knee-jerk reaction.

The only conclusion that any reader can draw is, Amiga500, that your assessment of this situation in the quote is absolutely spot on.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,823
11 Jun 2023 #209
....not to forget "Micron", you as a Brit hate France sometimes more than Germany....you poor tortured thing you! :(

Believe me....the Euro-Army will come....the future global world demands that....what will you do when Washington cheers for it, helps starting it?

It will exist within cooperations and maneuvers and exercises and shared costs and duties long before you would give it a name! :)

So....you are right.....let the discussion end here, it's not as if future Europe truly will have a choice.
jon357 74 | 22,054
11 Jun 2023 #210
you as a Brit

There you go again.

What do you have against Poland being a strong independent sovereign country with its own growing armed forces under Polish control and Poland becoming a major producer of military hardware and vehicles under Polish ownership?


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