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Poland is the new military power of Europe.


jon357 74 | 22,054
9 Jun 2023 #91
melodious voice

Unfortunately the tune has very dark aspects.

What we've got works well, and given how unreliable some of the states in mainland Europe are (it's not that long ago that Slovak military intelligence has to be excluded from any shared initiatives due to it being riddled with ruzzian spies and it's likely that German and French militaries also don't lack them) the idea of a common European army is a very long way off.
AntV 5 | 629
9 Jun 2023 #92
common European army is a very long way off

As a Usian, I don't care if it's some kind of common European military or not, I just want to see a significant increase in the military potency of Euro members.

Poland seems to be serious in increasing its military strength, I hope it's the impetus for other Euros to follow.
Novichok 4 | 7,927
9 Jun 2023 #93
I hope it's the impetus for other Euros to follow.

...and tell the US that they don't need NATO and the American military. Good boys...
Pawloff
9 Jun 2023 #94
They have to understand that they don't run the continent

Of course they run the continent. Just follow the money. Without German cash, the eastern half of Europe would be a **** poor hellhole and the rest would be bankrupt.
Tacitus 2 | 1,382
9 Jun 2023 #95
@Bratwurst Boy

who are about to unify their economies..

Coming back to the topic of this thread I think the economic argument for an EU is only going to become stronger with time as it becomes clear that organizing their own defense becomes more and more expensive for each individual state. Money might not seem like an issue in the face of the current Russian agression but it will become one once the necessary cuts to finance the arms purchases are revealed.

NATO wont disappear thanks to Putin but successive US administrations will be less and less willing and able to guarantee European security, especially if/when the conflict with China intensifies. The European countries will then have to make a decision. Pool their ressources together (as many of them are increasingly already doing in projects and military units) or keep Europe vulnerable.
jon357 74 | 22,054
9 Jun 2023 #96
US administrations will be less and less willin

The actual evidence (their policy documents are a matter of public record) is that they are likely to engage further in Europe as their access to other parts of the world decreases.

EU is only going

Remember that we were talking about Europe rather than organisations like the EU.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,823
9 Jun 2023 #97
.....the next Trump might promise his voters to let those freeloading Europeans to fend for themselves and save lotsa money!

And remember the neighbourly frowning as the german Chancellor promised to beef up the Bundeswehr in the face of the russian threat again? Neighbours who like their Germans militarily weak as a kitten quite well!

With a common army all that would no longer pose a problem....
jon357 74 | 22,054
9 Jun 2023 #98
Trump might promise

Fortunately, he is highly unlikely to win and of course America values the existence of NATO which they created.

trumpet's rhetoric while in office didn't weaken NATO and his ravings while out of office are irrelevant.

Neighbours who like their Germans militarily weak as a kitten quite well!

No bad thing given the behaviour of Germany when they have a strong military or access to one.

With a common army all that would no longer pose a problem

It doesn't pose a problem now, and there is no serious suggestion of a 'common army', merely more cooperation.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,823
9 Jun 2023 #99
...okay...then not Trump....whats the other? DeSantis?
jon357 74 | 22,054
9 Jun 2023 #100
DeSantis?

His voting record during his career in congress demonstrates strong support for NATO. He has described his foreign policy as "Reaganite".

Odd you mentioned him?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,823
9 Jun 2023 #101
....I don't follow the USian election fight that closely....

But the demands from Washington that the Europeans should take over a bigger share of their own defense isn't new!
Tacitus 2 | 1,382
9 Jun 2023 #102
is that they are likely to engage further in Europe

Wishful thinking. There is a consensus amongst the Republican candidates that the USA should be less involved in European affairs and Biden is expected to get under fire in his own party if the war in Ukraine drags on, hence the pressure on Ukraine to succeed in the current offensive.

Europe got extremely lucky when Biden won the election, but the US pivot to Asia is inevitable.

Europe rather than organisations like the EU.

Europe's future is tied to the EU. Europe can only maintain its influence and prosperity in the form of the EU. If the EU fails, then we Europeans are truly screwed and easy pickings for China and others.

That being said the EU also makes the necessary military integration easier.
jon357 74 | 22,054
9 Jun 2023 #103
101
....I don't follow the USian election fight that closely

You did however mention it for some reason.

But the demands from Washington that the Europeans should take over a bigger share of their own defense isn't new

And isn't unreasonable, especially for those countries. (not Poland or the U.K.) which have neglected that.

Defence? You even spell it the American rather than the European way.

Remember that the United States is a complex democracy rather than a banana republic and despite trumpet's hot air, nothing happened to weaken NATO as the European military alliance. If anything, it is growing stronger now.
AntV 5 | 629
9 Jun 2023 #104
..and tell the US that they don't need NATO and the American military.

I'd hope not. It wouldn't make sense.

Neighbours who like their Germans militarily weak as a kitten quite well!

*nods

Afterall NATO was created to keep America in, Russians out, and Germany down. Seems there needs to be some kind of re-calibration.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,823
9 Jun 2023 #105
You did however mention it for some reason.

Yeah....well....if not Trump....then there will be always someone else.....it's a valuable election fight argument....you can even see it here on PF with commenters from the US....they are sick of defending us....spending good Dollars and risking the lifes of US boys for us....and understandably so!

The bigger the conflicts the louder that will get.....

Defence? You even spell it the American rather than the European way.

I'm an Ossi (you asked)....I learned the russian language in school, english came much later....most is learned by reading international poster, so... :)
jon357 74 | 22,054
9 Jun 2023 #106
then there will be always someone else

A lot of what-ifs in that. And of course, haven't Europe thrown up some spectacularly foul political leaders within living memory?

PF with commenters from the US....they are sick

Certainly sick, however they don't represent the majority there (and indeed advocate an extreme minority view).

The bigger the conflicts the louder that will get..

One aspect of our current situation is stability with NATO member states. A very successful peace.
Tacitus 2 | 1,382
9 Jun 2023 #107
or the U.K.

Lets' be real here. The UK may have spent more money relative to its' GDP on defence, but that hardly a reason for complacency when it nevertheless is facing the same sort of deficites as other countries who did not reach the 2% goal.

Britain would run out of ammo in a day if it fought Russia

google.com/amp/s/dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11708161/amp/Britain-run-ammo-day-fought-Russia-Cuts-left-militarys-stores-bare.html

news.sky.com/story/treasury-signals-no-new-money-for-defence-despite-recognising-need-to-rearm-amid-ukraine-war-defence-sources-say-12804037

There were even talks about Germany having to step in for the UK in leading NATO's rapid reaction force.

Fears Britain's armed forces are too small to combat Russia as Nato chiefs ask Germany to stay in charge of 'rapid-reaction force.
jon357 74 | 22,054
9 Jun 2023 #108
Lets' be real here

OK, let's be real. The British armed forces, despite Tory spending cuts, are still the continent's best, however much Micron dislikes that.

Poland is emerging as a military power and a strong ally of Britain, in part due to Poland's and Britain's robust and immediate response to ruzzian expansionism where others prevaricated.

There were even talks about Germany having to step

With broom handles and WW2 helmets?

Fears Britain's armed forces are too small

Size isn't everything as your wife and President Zelenskyy both say.

One thing about the U.K. (and certainly its armed forces) is that they have a consistent and oft-repeated record of confounding the expectations (and intentions) of the mainland.

It seems that in military matters, Poland and the U.K. at the only adults in the room and of course both are leading members of NATO, an alliance that isn't going anywhere soon.
AntV 5 | 629
9 Jun 2023 #110
@Bratwurst Boy
@Tacitus

Germany said it would dramatically increase its military spending last year. Is there any reports that it is following through with this or has it stalled?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,823
9 Jun 2023 #111
I don't trust Scholz....but our new Minister of Defense, Boris Pistorius, seems to take his new job seriously....I would trust him!

The Bundeswehr has become an inefficient colossus....with to many bureaucrats feeding on it and to few soldiers actually working for it...rotting from the head. This is where Pistorius is already changing alot.

An interesting article...

Historical conversion: That's how much Pistorius is really turning the Bundeswehr upside down

kreiszeitung.de/politik/pistorius-verteidigungsministerium-historischer-personal-umbau-bundeswehr-boris-92189297.html

But it's only a start.....there are personal problems you can't solve with money! It will take time to rebuild what was left rotting for the last 20 years...
Korvinus 2 | 477
9 Jun 2023 #112
Yeah....well....if not Trump....then there will be always someone else...

Dumb Americans always thinking it's all about them.

We in CEE hated Putin before Trump even dared to dream about a political career.
AntV 5 | 629
9 Jun 2023 #113
@Bratwurst Boy

If I understood the article correctly (translator was needed being I'm a dumb USian and all :) ), it seems Germany is serious about changing course. Seems sensible to me that in order to build up the Bundeswehr, you need to change the culture and way of thinking about and managing within it.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,823
9 Jun 2023 #114
These translators are great, aren't they! :)

Yes....also the image of our army has become a boost since Russia invaded Ukraine....Pistorius has become one of our most popular politicians, as Defense minister!!! When did that ever happen in after-war-Germany??? :)
jon357 74 | 22,054
9 Jun 2023 #115
Dumb Americans always thinking it's all about them

Their population can be quite insular in attitude.

Odd that a thread about the improvement and expansion of the Polish Army has been steered by two Germans towards issues about their own military and about Micron's dream of a Euroarmy.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,823
9 Jun 2023 #116
.....you think an Euroarmy is Macron's dream?

Did he ever say so??

If so, our Franco-German brigade would be the perfect start....but it led to nothing!
jon357 74 | 22,054
9 Jun 2023 #117
Franco-German brigade

Remember that the thread is about the Polish Army and it's emergence as the second military power in Europe after its ally the U.K...
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,823
9 Jun 2023 #118
Remember that the thread is about the Polish Army

Yeah...what's there to discuss anymore? The Poles themselves don't seem interested much....the Germans on this board more so! :)

Not to mention that a buildup of the polish army doesn't happen in a vacuum but is rather a reaction to the real weakness of our continental armies...which brings us back to the other topic....
Novichok 4 | 7,927
9 Jun 2023 #119
A word of caution...The US has the most powerful army in the universe and lost every single war since 1945. If you ask, I will define "lost".

Now, what did being number 1 get us? Never-ending wars, bloated mil budget, unpayable debt, obligations we can't keep, and the hate by the rest of the world for the death and destruction we caused.

To all that fun, Euros add patronizing contempt to cover up their feelings of impotence.

I would trust Poland with its world-class army as much as I would trust a drunk with that life-ending red button.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,823
9 Jun 2023 #120
To all that fun, Euros add patronizing contempt to cover up their feelings of impotence.

Would you support the buildup of a common EU-army?


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