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Poland is the new military power of Europe.


Miloslaw 19 | 4,743
7 Jun 2023 #1
Poland is fast becoming the strongest military power in Europe.

politico.eu/article/europe-military-superpower-poland-army/
Novichok 5 | 7,766
7 Jun 2023 #2
All Poland needs is an enemy.
OP Miloslaw 19 | 4,743
7 Jun 2023 #3
It already has one,of long standing.
Why else do you think Poland is building up it's military?
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810
7 Jun 2023 #4
....that would make only sense if Poland plans to become actively involved in the Ukraine war....sooner or later....
OP Miloslaw 19 | 4,743
7 Jun 2023 #5
that would make only sense if Poland plans to become actively involved in the Ukraine war

??

Doesn't protecting Poland make sense too???
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810
7 Jun 2023 #6
Poland is protected through NATO, but that buildup means they are preparing for more. I frankly don't think Putin is really considering attacking a NATO member, not as it has been shown he is overtaxed with Ukraine already.

But....this war could become a long, drawn out one....even with an unclear ending if territories are still up for negotiating. It could be thought that kicking the russian army when she is down, or at least enormously weakened, with a fit, modern, motivated and fresh army to push the Russians far back....all outside and independent of NATO of course. Such a move must never be seen as a NATO attack, but otherwise....why not!

Just some thinking....

PS: I agree with the conclusions of this article concerning Germany though....Germany looks at that polish military buildup not that unhappy!
OP Miloslaw 19 | 4,743
7 Jun 2023 #7
Poland is protected through NATO, but that buildup means they are preparing for more

I think you are completely wrong.
It means that Poland don't trust NATO.
They trusted the west,pre NATO, in 1939 and no help came......
They won't make the same mistake again.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810
7 Jun 2023 #8
They trusted the west,pre NATO, in 1939 and no help came......

Seriously?

Germany has it worse....you are all once enemies!
jon357 74 | 21,842
7 Jun 2023 #9
Germany has it worse....you are all once enemies!

Recollections may vary....
Novichok 5 | 7,766
7 Jun 2023 #10
The part that caught my attention:

While concerns about Russia spurred that push, Warsaw is also worried about the reliability of Washington. Unlike most of the rest of the EU, however, their concern isn't that Donald Trump will return as president, but that he won't.

Despite the deepening cooperation between the American and Polish militaries in helping Ukraine, Poland's current leadership remains distrustful of President Joe Biden, who as a candidate referred to the country's government as "totalitarian."


Couldn't agree more with the Poles. No, you shouldn't trust the US because the US will not commit suicide for Poland. I am relieved to know...
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810
7 Jun 2023 #11
....who knows....becoming a military power, even meddling in far away affairs, could be an important step to "heal" that polish soul which undeniably still seems to be abit broken because of some difficult spots in their history.

But putting all of your trust in far away powers and neglecting the neighbours never helped in the past, to make this political error again should be avoided, one would think!
OP Miloslaw 19 | 4,743
7 Jun 2023 #12
I just got a message that this thread is closed......why?When it obviously isn't?

German gov't love this though, they can continue to underfund their own military and hope that Poland can protect them from Russia.

Big mistake!
Novichok 5 | 7,766
7 Jun 2023 #13
Why would Russia want to attack Germany? They already did once so what would Russia gain by doing it again?

To sell gas and oil to itself?
Alien 18 | 4,772
8 Jun 2023 #14
what would Russia gain by doing it again?

Berlin, Dresden, Leipzig....and so on.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810
8 Jun 2023 #15
...but that only costs, they don't gain one ruble with that.
Alien 18 | 4,772
8 Jun 2023 #16
they would dismantle the sidewalks and take them to russia
Tacitus 2 | 1,378
8 Jun 2023 #17
Poland is smart to invest in its' military. But as with all good things, overdoing it can become problematic or even unhealthy.

Russia is a serious security threat for Poland that is a fact. But it is also a fact that the war in Ukraine has greatly weakened the Russian military and it while it can be rebuilt, it most likely wont regain some advantages it previously held (like the incredible amount of artillery ammunition from Soviet stock piles, which it can hardly reproduce due to the economic cost of the war). So while it is prudent for Poland to buy military hardware, it should not happen to a degree that put its' financial solvency at risk.

Russia may or may not pose a threat to Poland depending on the outcome of its' invasion of Ukraine.

The demographic decline will however certainly become a huge challenge for Poland down the line (, 1 or 2 millions or even 5m might lessen the blow but not fundamentally change it).

Buying like 700 Himars (some sources claimed even more) and the highly questionable K2 project which will cost Polands many bns might do more harm than good.

Not that I mind that, a stronger Poland means more security at a cheaper price for Germany. My concern is though whether or not this is sustainable for Poland.
Novichok 5 | 7,766
8 Jun 2023 #18
Berlin, Dresden, Leipzig....

...and with them German LGBTs and green eco-fascists? No, thanks. That is the last thing Russia would want.

Buying like 700 Himars

Just as you don't supply booze to an alcoholic, you don't give Himars to a bunch of nuts that like dying for their country. Baaaad combination...
AntV 5 | 585
8 Jun 2023 #19
but that buildup means they are preparing for more

It means that Poland don't trust NATO

Or, could it simply mean Poland has decided that a more muscular military will serve as a deterrent to any possible foreign encroachment, as well as putting Poland in a better position within the EU-being the muscular rampart on the EU's eastern frontier is a bargaining chip that may reap dividends for Poland in Brussels.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810
8 Jun 2023 #20
.....that too!

Obviously presumed Poland sees that growing "muscle" as a european thing, to strenghtening the EU, not something for far away powers (*cough* Washington *cough*) to use at will. Warsaw should strive not to be seen in Europe as an USian bootlicker as with Iraq, just saying....

Otherwise polish history might repeat itself....with an unhappy neighbourhood and far away powers who decide to stay out of neighbourly conflicts....
AntV 5 | 585
8 Jun 2023 #21
@Bratwurst Boy

Well, yeah, if it is building muscle simply to be a proxy army then there's some very serious problems attached to that. However, to serve as an effective deterrent, nothing should be withdrawn from the table...except, bullsh!t causes like Iraq-the pros most significantly outweigh the cons.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810
8 Jun 2023 #22
...it is no secret that polish governments love to play the "we are the US besties in Europe" card and sh*t on the german EU....it never gained them anything, not even in Washington.

Poland could already be a leading member in Brussels...but somehow they don't want to! *shrugs*

Especially not as Poland is in competition with the UK for the "european bestie" place....a place they will never gain, and be it only because of the history and the language! I truly dunno whats going on in those heads in Warsaw who again believe a far away doubtful friend is so much preferable than being close to their neighbours....especially knowing polish history!
AntV 5 | 585
8 Jun 2023 #23
@Bratwurst Boy

Assuming you are correct about the doubtfulness of America's friendship with Poland, it may be that Warsaw might be thinking, " America may be a doubtful friend, but at least they give the impression they arefriends, and they have a potent defense force, whereas our neighbor friends don't always treat us friendly and have an impotent defense force that relies on the doubtful friend's force to secure our territory." A kind of bet hedging.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810
8 Jun 2023 #24
America may be a doubtful friend, but at least they give the impression they are, and they have a potent defense force, whereas our neighbor friends don't always treat us friendly

....if that's so then that speaks of a total loss of reality....there is nobody who has done more as the EU for Poland....since the end of the Cold War.

It took them in, opened it's borders for their goods and their people, and poured BILLIONS of support funds into the country, year after year after year....to **** on all that and look at a far away country as it's "saviour", feeling badly treated by its neighbours, can't be good for the country....

You can't make good policy on such wrong beliefs!
AntV 5 | 585
8 Jun 2023 #25
@Bratwurst Boy

I don't know about it looking to the US as its Savior.

The EU has interceded with Poland's domestic governance, so its not totally unreasonable for them to be a bit skeptical of the level of friendliness. I'm not saying its the right or wrong perception, but its not an entirely unreasonable perception.

Regardless, the point at hand is defense. And, Poland is not alone in Europe in that it looks to the US as its main defense support. As I see it, Poland is taking a pro-active stance in building up its military to defend its own interest-it is the Russian invasion of Ukraine that has precipitated this build-up. It seems its just following through with what it, as many other European countries, said it would do a year ago: beef up its military.
GefreiterKania 36 | 1,412
8 Jun 2023 #26
there is nobody who has done more as the EU for Poland

Yes. That's why in 2022 92% of Poles supported the EU (record high), compared to 60% in 2003...

obserwatorgospodarczy.pl/2023/04/27/poparcie-polakow-dla-ue-jest-rekordowo-wysokie/

... let that properly sink in - 92%.

That's ninety two percent. Ninety... two... percent.

I'll just break it down into syllables, in case someone here failed to get it: nine-ty-two-per-cent.

Let's just give it a couple of minutes to properly sink in.

*waits for about 3 minutes*

...and among the EU countries not a single one has been as unwavered, steadfast and consistent in their support for Poland as Germany. Now, let THAT properly sink in. :)
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810
8 Jun 2023 #27
And, Poland is not alone in Europe in that it looks to the US as its main defense support.

....maybe this polish buildup will become the core of a new EU-army.....now that would gain Poland lotsa influence in Brussels!!!

[quote=GefreiterKania]*waits for about 3 minutes*

*mumbles*

*looks at watch*

I can differentiate between the polish people and well...some of his political leadership, I truly can....I swear!!!!
AntV 5 | 585
8 Jun 2023 #28
new EU-army.....now that would gain Poland lotsa influence in Brussels!!!

Not only Brussels!
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,810
8 Jun 2023 #29
....a win/win for the West, huh?

A more self-confident Poland, a US which must'n bear everything alone anymore and a Europe putting it's defense into hands which are most interested in that.


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