Poland is the new military power of Europe.

Because God likes the French, Germans, and Hungarians more and gave them 90% of the brain allocated to Europe.

@Milo, kindly re-read my post and then it'll make complete sense:-)

There is hardly a project more worthy of such praise. The EU embodies all the positive political ideals that have been coined in Europe. Democracy and cooperation between states of all sizes. The EU is by its' nature the very opposite of imperialism. There is no supranation l entity in which even the smallest member has that much influence like e.g. Luxembourg has on many issues.


The EU was always a political project with the goal of a peaceful and united Europe. Which is why the argument of the Brexiteers of being "deceived" over the true nature are such nonsense.

It is matter of great pride that Germany has done a lot over the years to keep the EU working, similiarly to how the British are proud of their countries deeds during the WWs. It is not a "Franco-German project" to the extent that it includes others, all the member states have a stake in it and it has been used very effectively by smaller states to further their interests.

Trying to put the EU in a tradition with Hitler or talking about imperialistic ambitions of some member states is really devaluing the meaning of those historical experiences.

On a side note this rhetoric mirrors Putin's views on the NATO as an imperialistic American project for American hegemony. The only politician in our proximity who is still rooted in imperialistic dreams is Putin. All the others have moved on. They still make mistakes and miscalculations, but that simple fact should be easy enough to acknowledge.


What kind of scenario are you imagining? Under which circumstances would Poland want to use an army, but the other European armies would not?

@Tacitus
Who are you replying to? Aside from being off-topic, your quotes are missing the name. Is your computer broken?


Poland took part in the coalition against Saddam Hussein. France opposed that war. In your fantasy army, would France be able to stop Poland taking part in defending against a dictator elsewhere again?

That they did, along with Germany and other countries and history has more than vindicated that decision. The illegal invasion of Iraq is a blight on the reputation of the USA and those who participated in it, which sadly included Poland.

It is up to the member states to decide under which conditions an European army would operate. I can imagine that it would naturally act automatically in case of self-defence if a member state gets attacked, since we have already similar provisions in NATO and the EU. There will hopefully be restrictions against using it as a colonial expedition force, but who knows what the countries will come up with.


Hardly. I always made sure to include Poland and its' military future in my posts, which naturally include talks about closer military cooperation with other European countries.

@Tacitus
Who are you replying to? For some reason the names are missing from your quotes. Is there a reason for that?


So in fact you're confirming that Poland would not have the power or authority to use its armed forces without the say so of other countries.

I doubt they'd ever agree to that.

We shall see. If it becomes clear that Poland - like any European country - can no longer finance a credible military deterrence on its' own then the prospect of losing the ability of waging unilateral colonial wars in other parts of the world might no longer look like such a big sacrifice.

Pragmatism will lead to the creation of a European army. Keeping the welfare and pension system afloat will be a big motivation.

....especially as Poland is not known for colonial wars to exploit far away countries....

I very much doubt Poland would have a problem with not-doing that....less a problem than...say....Britain?

A more realistic case would be another Iraq-war....a lone decision by Washington, never recognized by the EU, the UN or even NATO.....will the US do that ever again? With it's attention on China?

Doubtful....after all we would no longer talking of a weak Poland lacking self-esteem, hoping to be recognized and awarded by the US for it's loyalty.

The future Poland is strong, militarily and economically, a leader of the EU with lotsa influence and self confidence....why the hell should they lick foreign boots for nothing ever again???

After all what did Poland gain from their loyalty? The US did not reward them, didn't they....that was another hard lesson!

@Tacitus
Who are you replying to? The names are missing from your quotes. Why is that?

@Bratwurst Boy


Which was why I asked for scenarios because I could not really understand why Poland would want to use the military over the objection of other states. One of the advantages Poland enjoys over Western countries is the lack of colonial ties to other parts of the world. Unlike France or the UK it has no misconceptions of imperial grandeur and does not seem likely to engage in other military adventures. Especially now when its' military plans are (understandably) fully focused on deterrence against Russia. I suspect that if Poland agreed to join a European army, it would be interested in making sure that it would not be used on such endeavours.

Come to which I'd be interested to know if Poland also plans to build modern ammunition production chains? The war in Ukraine has reminded us how much ammunition is used up each day in modern wars and all those fancy Himars and Krabs are of little use without it.

.....yeah....maybe some polish posters could provide more insight into these plans....

@Tacitus
Would you consider the liberation of North Korea as a colonial war of lead by U.S.A? I wouldn't

The war against Saddam Hussein I see fully as legitimate, the irresponsibility afterwards and full on damage and abuse of Iraq is another story, which to my understanding was already happening but, propelled to unknown dimension due to the lack of a firm hand and clear show of who is leader among peoples in Iraq. Wolf flock lost it's wolf pack leader, so wolf packs emerged and began eating wolf cubs

With regard to Poland's military use and capacity, it's main concern is allied support in an event of invasion from a foreign power, EU army used as an international police force legally is a valid concern, and seeing how Sweden has pushed recently above the heads of Poland due to technicalities with a migration pact, EU seems more distant then ever

Quite. Or any other aim Poland may have. It would be a poor show if another country were able to veto Poland's use of its armed forces or insist they buy armaments, tanks, planes for a particular country.


Yes, of course it was. Saddam was the aggressor and had invaded Kuwait and held hostages. There are certain countries in Europe that I won't name who pay ransom when hostages are taken, however neither of the two European countries involved in the struggle against Saddam's aggression do that.

Interesting that 5en calls for Poland no longer to have full sovereignty over her own armed forces and decision making are from somewhere that would stand to gain from that.


You presumably mean naval or military action on behalf of others or ourselves. It's what we do and that will not change any time soon?

What's with the missing names in your quotes.

.....I don't remember having you such concerns regarding Germany or France?

There is always sounds like fear of what they could do with such a military....not what they wouldn't be allowed to do....rather curious, isn't it! :)

Frankly....both World Wars would be avoided with a common army....with a Union as the EU already in place....that alone are enough good arguments!

I don't remember living in and being a citizen of either of those.


Oh, the irony. Can anyone see an obvious flaw in that statement?

Amazing that there are people stil going on about a non-existent 'Euroarmy' in a thread about the current Polish armed forces.

Do tell....

@Kashub1410


Depends on the circumstances. If North Korea once again invades South Korea and gets repelled, then I would argue that a subsequent campaign to also liberate North Korea would be justified.

The USA deciding to invade North Korea tomorrow without provocation would be a different matter. The fat Kim has a nightmarish regime, but the international community has rules on when the use of force is justified for very good reasons.

The first war against Saddam Hussein to liberate Kuwait was of course fully justified. Just as the war in 2003 was obviously illegal due to the lack of any legal justification. That it also made things much worse for the people in Iraq and neighbouring countries is another matter. One could now point out how participation in that illegal invasion is a sign that a certain country is yet struggling to leave its' bloody imperialistic past behind it, but I digress.

Russia's invasion of Ukraine has at least made it less likely that Poland, or any European country would contemplate another military adventurer in another part of the world in the future.


What has Sweden done to Poland?

@Bratwurst Boy


True, but then again few Europeans back then would have identified with the ideals of the EU. Most had autocratic and imperialistic sympathies.

Really a shame that it took us that long to learn the lesson, but at least it stuck.

There have been other individuals who've suggested that, however their attempts to force a prosecution all failed. Why? Because it was entirely legal.

Here's a question. If your pan-European armed force ever existed and if the U.K.'s army and navy were part of it, and Argentina were to annexe the Falklands and the U.K. wished to liberate the Falklanders, would France or Spain be able to exercise a veto on that?

Spot on!
These Euro Fanatics have got their heads up their Ar$es,
Poland is building up it's military to defend Poland.
Not to defend Europe.
Germany and France please take note!

Did anybody tell Russia that it is supposed to attack Poland?

Sure.....we will do it!

....and Poland will sit on the sideline, with all of its shiny, beefed up army and watch.....I can just see that before my inner eye! :)

Nobody needed to.It's what Russia does.


If you Germans don't wake up, yes!

We had this discussion before. As pointed out back then, there is no legal justification for the invasion. It was not in self-defense, nor sanctioned by the UN. As such it was an illegal war.

Putin may never stand trial because power dynamics may prevent this from happening. Does that mean that his invasion of Ukraine is legal?


It would defeat the purpose of a European army if it could not act in self-defense.

Coincidentally the UK best hope of protecting the Falklands long-term is probably an EU army given that financing the necessary fleet is increasingly beyond them. Bit that is matter after the UK rejoins.

@Bratwurst Boy


Dont mind that one bid. The stronger Poland becomes, the securer we are. I am just worried that they might end up overdoing it and thus financially ruining themselves.

To liberate Belarus?


it would have started as a civil war.. (rolls eyes)


Spare us your concern trolling, you don't give a sh*t about poland, only the recreation of your Reich, but PC this time.

Was Israel justified in invading Syria in 1967?

Let Poland spend a gazillion $$$ on arms and military. The Polish taxpayers will ultimately pay for the inflated ego of their politicians, and on the long run it will bankrupt Poland the same way it bankrupted the USSR and currently the USA. If that is what Poland wants, more power to them. The rest of Europe will thank you for voluntarily becoming the prime target of Russian nukes.

Be a damn shame if Poland had to start paying for their own healthcare and college tuitions wouldn't it.

And you're still as wrong now as you were then, unless there's been a court decision that nobody except you has heard about.


That answer is evidently to a different question. The question posed? You don't want to answer it, do you.

You don't want Poland to be a fully independent so e reign state with complete control over its armed forces.

And what's with your quotes? Why do you remove names?


That is all too clear.

The two Germans have tried to turn a thread on Poland as a military power into a thread on something else entirely, have tried to attack me since I'm originally from the U.K., even though the U.K. is neutral in such issues and cooperates strongly with Poland in military matters, and were oddly and irrelevantly banging on about Brexit, and most bizarrely the UK's former overseas possessions, something we were busy divesting ourselves of for moral reasons while their country was illegally rearming in order to invade Poland, and showing a certain outrage about Poland having its own defence industry and sourcing weapons etc from wherever they want.

They won't even answer straightforward questions since they know the answers are unpalatable to Polish readers and at least one of the hadn't even bothered to read the article this thread is about. Talk about a knee-jerk reaction.

The only conclusion that any reader can draw is, Amiga500, that your assessment of this situation in the quote is absolutely spot on.

....not to forget "Micron", you as a Brit hate France sometimes more than Germany....you poor tortured thing you! :(

Believe me....the Euro-Army will come....the future global world demands that....what will you do when Washington cheers for it, helps starting it?

It will exist within cooperations and maneuvers and exercises and shared costs and duties long before you would give it a name! :)

So....you are right.....let the discussion end here, it's not as if future Europe truly will have a choice.

There you go again.

What do you have against Poland being a strong independent sovereign country with its own growing armed forces under Polish control and Poland becoming a major producer of military hardware and vehicles under Polish ownership?