Donald Tusk's Government of Poland Continues to Oppress Poles

Donald Tusk, following in the footsteps of his predecessor in the office
of Generalgouverneur - Hans Frank, continues the oppression of Polish
population, concentrating his efforts on Polish families with children.

Tusk's government, despite the fact that Poland has one of the lowest
birthrates in the World...

... raises the VAT for baby wares, from soothers to clothes, from the current 8%
to 23% from January 2012. The almost 300% rise of baby wares VAT, is a perfect
continuation of German WW2 nazi policy of oppressing Polish population.

For those of you who can't read Polish - the cost of raising a child in Poland
(until he/she is 20 years old) is PLN 190,000 and for two children it's 322,000.
The outrageous rise in VAT will not only significantly increase the cost of raising
children and put the poorest families even deeper in poverty, but it will most likely
decrease the birthrate even further. 29% of children in Poland live in poverty,
the Tusk's decision will increase this disgraceful number.

Adolf Hitler would certainly be proud of Donald Tusk - there will be fewer of the
"verfluchten Polacken" in the future. Dankeschön, Herr Tusk!

Nice attempt a trying to deflect from the late president's pardoning of a crook linked to his son in law.

I agree with the policy if you are on welfare, you should not be subsidized to have children. That is the policy that operates in Germany under recent changes. Perfectly sensible, and can only be opposed by a leftist.

In addition to the above mentioned policy, they have increased the number of places available to preschools as well as making it easier to set up a preschool. It is also worth bearing in mind that although they have increased the VAT rate on other things, thy have lowered VAT on food.

Glad someone else can see the misgivings of the Polish government. I thought I was alone. Problem on this site though, is ..... whenever someone posts negative articles, the pro Polish martyrs jump down your throat.

Nice thread title may I add. The key word being " oppress ". Why do the Polish public let them get away with it. Could it be they still live in fear as when under Russian oppression ?

Was it better under Russian rule ? Has anything changed ?
Oppressed in the past by others, now oppressed by their own.

VIVA LA REVOLUTION.....Jeszcze Polska nie zginela.

Try seeing a doctor(:

Name one other government that is more successful in the EU than the current Polish government. With reason, facts and figures to back up your choice, if you can't may i recommended that you shut your yapper and talk about things you know more about.

Torq, come on, you can do better than this.

Poland was allowed to maintain the exception for baby clothes until now by the EU - this VAT rise would have been implemented irrespective of who was in power, and it's not something that can be blamed on Tusk or indeed the current Government at all. Perhaps the SLD coalition of 2001-2005 should be blamed - they're the ones who negotiated the accession treaty, after all.

Your article even makes it clear that Poland was pushed into this.

As I always say - accept the EU decision, or leave. Poland's choice.

How can you link raising the VAT for babyware by Tusk with Kaczynski pardoning a crook
is beyond me. I see no connection between the two at all. I am not a PiS supporter (and
never was.) I am merely reporting anti-Polish, anti-family policies of Der Generalgouverneur
Tusk.


It's nothing to do with being on welfare. It's about general anti-family approach and policies
of the current government.

The VAT for babyware in Great Britain is 0%. In Luxembourg, it's 3%. The VAT tax
in general is higher only in two EU countries - in Sweden and Denmark it's 25%.
In Luxembourg and Spain it's 15%, in the UK - 17.5%. Poland - one of the poorest
countries in the EU, has one of the highest VAT rates.

As far as helping families is concerned, Poland spends 0.76% of GDP for it, Germany
and France spend 9% and 4% respectively. Young mothers in Czech Republic and Hungary
receive much more help from the state than Polish mothers.

We have to ask ourselves, why is having children viewed as beneficial for society in all
other EU countries, and is encouraged and supported by them, whilst in Poland it is viewed
as luxurious consumption, and taxed accordingly.


Interesting. I always had the impression that protesting against excessively high tax rates
is characteristic for the "rightists" and not the "leftists". Oh, well - one learns something new
every day :)


Erm... the 7% VAT rate for food was increased to 8%, and the 22% rate was increased to 23%.
There is one lowered VAT rate of 5% for fresh bakery products (which have expiration date
shorter than 14 days.)


Polish public is stupified by the government-controlled media and manipulated by primitive
sociotechnics: if you are with PO - you are intelligent, modern, educated, true European;
if you are against PO - you are xenophobic, anti-semite, backwards disgrace and you should
be ashamed of yourself. Primitive sociotechnics, but it works on a society stupified by Gazeta
Wyborcza, TVN and other mainstream media.


Do you mean under the Russian partition 1795-1918? I really couldn't say, as I don't know too
much about the social history of Poland in that particular period. However, if you meant the
period of 1945-1989 when Poland was not under "Russian rule", but under Soviet domination,
then the opinions are divided and I feel that it is beyond the subject of this thread to discuss
those opinions.


Interestingly enough, other countries like, for example, Great Britain or Luxembourg are still
allowed to maintain the low VAT rates (0% and 3% respectively.)


If it was like that - all the member countries who ever opposed any EU decission would have
left the union by now. Opposing EU decisions doesn't mean leaving the union for any other
country, and I don't see why it should be different for Poland.


Yes, it is. Even if this was overlooked in negotiations before, there has been discussion about
it for the last 3-4 years and the government had enough time to negotiate the maintaining
of lower rates (as it's been done by other EU members, in many other matters in the past,
re-negotiation of terms is nothing extraordinary or new in the European Union.)

Yes, that is because they didn't agree to raise their rates when negotiating with the EU. Which is why Poland has had to raise its VAT and branches of Mothercare near England's channel ports all employ staff who can speak French.

Given that your city has never been under the rule of Der Generalgouverneur, you have no reason to complain.


So you mean that a person must pay 41,800zl as VAT on the cost of raising a child. How does that compare to the cost of educating that child and providing health care to it? And don't forget about the tax breaks available to parents. The simple fact is that people who are selfish enough to have lots of children have long been subsidised by people who have none. It's time for that to end.


Which is only fair, given that so many (of the people in America who claim to be) Poles support the continuation of WWII Nazi policy regarding the racial purity in Germany.

The statistics on who voted for who in the last Presidential election does actually show a correlation between education and party. Komorowski overwhelmingly won among the urban and educated types, and Jaroslaw Kaczynski overwhelmingly won among the uneducated village types.

Government-controlled media? What Government controlled media? Public media is rather neutral at the minute, and Rzeczpospolita, to my knowledge, supported Kaczynski in the last election.


Indeed. It's a sign of relative wealth and influence - the UK and Luxembourg have far more room to negotiate than Poland - after all, Poland is still too poor and weak to really hold any say in the EU as a whole.


Perhaps it was made clear by the EU that there wouldn't be any negotiation on this matter? The EU is a complex beast - it may very well have been agreed behind closed doors that Poland would introduce the 23% rate in exchange for an opt-out from that bit of Lisbon. We really don't know what was going on.

But - incidentally, Torq - do you know if there's VAT on second hand clothes in Poland? It could be said that families with large amounts of children are more than likely going to buy second hand anyway - and if there's no VAT on the clothes, then it's a moot point anyway.

Personally, this thread confirms what I've said all along - despite what they may say, Poles are fundamentally like Scots - socialist to the bone.

No more handouts for parents! Too many cars clogging Polish roads! Hospitals are overloaded! Housing is too expensive! Unemployment is too high!

How about starting to concentrate on quality and not quantity, win!

The sad truth is that Poles simply wont admit it - but they grew up on social welfare and now that it's being taken away from them, they're getting more and more upset about it. Yet - when asked if they want to have Scandinavian style taxation, they point blank refuse.

Make your mind up people!

Well, it is now.


The cost of educating a child, that parents have to afford (from primary school to university),
is calculated at about PLN 60,000 (assuming that the child attends public schools where you
don't have to pay monthly fees). That brings the basic cost of raising and educating
a child to about PLN 250,000 - the cost that is, of course, paid by the parents. For two
children it would be about 440,000 and for three, 620,000. Tax breaks cover only a small
friction of the cost.


I think common sense and simple logic would suggest that it's exactly the opposite.

The well-being of any society depends on the work of current and future generations.
Having and educating children is beneficial for the entire society, whilst the cost of it
rests, in the overwhelming part, on the parents.

When you take two people, with the same income - one of which has no children
and the other who has three, then the former will have on average PLN 620,000 more at
his disposal than the latter (and he can hardly feel discriminated having over $200,000 to
spend on his own needs.)


Americans and Germans interest me vaguely. Well-being of Polish families, however, interests
me a lot. Hence I protest against nazi politics aimed against them.

As the prophet observed: Quit rutting, just for a fuccking day. Let's work out this food/air deal. Then go back to your rutting.


Not strictly speaking true. Some of us pay 41% flat rate tax and then on top of that a payment equal to 60% of the minimum wage as ZUS. Oh, and then another 22% of everything that we spend (i.e. VAT). And we do so without complaining.

Well, you see - if we could have capitalism, but I mean real capitalism, with economic freedom,
low taxes and no annoying bureaucracy, raising obstacles in front of people all the time, then
I would be for cancelling all the tax breaks, benefits and hand-outs. Unfortunately, Poland
must function in the socialist reality of European Union, where economic freedom is severely
limited. Hence, if other countries in the EU socialist block support their families, then I don't
see why Poland shouldn't.

In that case you should just vote to return to the Fatherland proper!


But how much is the cost of the state-funded schooling and health care? Clearly you know it must be more than the money paid as taxation because you again repeat the cost of having a child instead of the amount that the parents pay as tax. If I wanted to run a pair of Porsches for 21 years, I imagine that the cost would be more than 440,000 but do you hear me whining about the state not giving me tax breaks to do that?


Not at all: there are more than enough people on the planet and no shortage of people who want to come and live in Poland without first being a financial burden on the state.

How much more would he have if he hadn't subsidised the selfish person's lifestyle choices?


Have you ever heard of Godwin's law?

Because it's a personal decision. Some people think that the well-being of society in the future rests on a high quality workforce. With only limited resources that the state can pilfer from the people, it would seem to make more sense to focus on making future generations wealthier, not larger in number. Having children this day and age is not a civic duty, it's a personal decision. The argument would be a bit less selfish if there were no parent-less children in Poland...


Capital that can be invested in things like businesses that will provide future jobs of those children that you mention.


With a little modification, it works over here too.

"Subsidized housing all over Poland filling up with little miracles. Thunk, thunk, thunk. Look at all my little miracles. Filling up my tax payer subsidized flat like a sardine can. Look at them."

It is in the fatherland proper at the moment. The only problem is the current anti-Polish
government, but the coming elections will solve that problem once and for all for us.
Poles will not be fooled anymore by the tyrants, hypocrites and liars... hopefully we won't.


But that's exactly what I oppose - treating children like luxurious consumption and taxing
them like it. You running a pair of Porsches is not nearly as beneficial to Poland as raising
and educating two children, who will later work, pay taxes and upkeep the pension system.
If it wasn't the case, we should all just buy a couple of luxury cars and stop having children
at all.


But you see, I am a bit old-fashioned, and whilst I am not against immigration per se, I can't
force myself to think of replacing young Poles with hordes of third world immigrants as being
beneficial for Poland.


I don't know, but to have $200,000 extra in your pocket is still not too bad, as well as having
someone who wipes your a** when you're not able to do it yourself, and that someone had
to be born and raised by someone else - which required not only financial input but also
sacrificing a lot of time and effort. So, to sum things up - talking about discrimination of those
who don't have children by those who have, borders on idiocy.


Sure, I don't deny that. I'm only against calling the person, who has 200 thousand bucks
extra, in his pocket, "discriminated" :)

Nail and head there mate.


So you are putting your own views ahead of what is best for Poland: shame on you!


How much more would it be if I hadn't had to subsidise the children of the selfish? And I personally plan to just import my own care team.


The person has that extra money because he chose not to spend it on children. He did not choose to subsidise the children of the selfish but he was forced to do so anyway.

Not really. I simply think that, whilst economic benefits of mass immigration are undeniable,
there are also downsides of it, which may overweight the benefits. My opinion seems to be
shared by practically all the governments in the World, who, in one form or another, limit
the immigration to their countries.


Contact the Adam Smith Centre...

smith.org.pl/pl/

...if they were able to calculate the cost of raising children, they might also be able
to answer your question. Interestingly enough, the centre, which supports free market
and economic freedom, also supports low taxes for families and considers raising children
to be beneficial for the society (according to what vice-president of it - Andrzej Sadowski,
wrote in the last issue of "Gość Niedzielny".)


Too bad the parents of said person didn't choose to spend their money on something
else than raising such selfish individual.


The outragingly selfish individual in question, received much more from both his parents
and society, than he spent "subsidising" the children of unselfish people, who were willing
to sacrifice their money, time and effort for the future generations.

If they were worried about future generations, why didn't said unselfish people adopt instead of having their own children? It seems there are plenty of unwanted children out there already...

Biology. Sad as it is, many people are more conditioned by biology than they should be
and they prefer to have their own children, instead of adopting someone else's (you know,
passing your genes, prolonging the line, non omnis moriar and stuff.)

However, having said that, despite being conditioned in the first place by their "selfish genes",
the same people show a lot of unselfishness later, by raising their children the best they can
and educating them for the greater benefit of the entire society.

And, YES, spot on, Convex. Adopting a child and caring for it, as if it was your own, is one
of the most unselfish things a person can do, and I have enormous respect for people who
adopt children.

Try being an immigrant sometime: you soon see the logic of it.


Could you tell us what the Adam Smith centre thinks should not be subject to low taxes?


You want other people to pay for your lifestyle choice and you are calling other people selfish?!

Good point. But they, being a free market and econonomic freedom supporting organisation,
consider raising children to be beneficial for the entire society. Go figure.


I want nothing of the kind. I don't need support from the state and will be OK with or without
it. However, being an extremely unselfish person, I am aware of the fact that there are people
who DO need help. We should unselfishly help them, like unselfish people that we are.


Only in response to your calling other people selfish, whilst in reality they sacrifice much
more in money, time and effort than they receive from the state, so calling them "selfish"
is nonsensical.

Torq I think your focusing too much on a minor issue that is in fact no or little fault of the Tusk government - I am not 100 per cent sure but I have heard that our current FM J.V. Rostowski cancelled the tax deduction for couples having children (it was about 1200 PLN per child a year) for the tax year of 2011 (and if PO rules on possibly coming years) - this is really a hard blow for low income famillies with children - 1200 out of hand - anybody correct it if I am wrong on the issue

edit: ok I found news from December that the government cancelled the planned withdrawal of tax deductions for children for 2011 - I think they realized such move would be suicidal in the election year - the move however escalates pressure on the FM to fight for OFE's money ( from what I gather the commission OFE's impose on money put into their 'personal accounts' deems them white collar robbers - they make HEEPS of cash not investing a single penny and regardless whether their investments are profitable ) - and in my personal view the drive by the government to seize large proportion of money that goes to OFE's is the main reason Tusk lost its media 'umbrella'

That is correct. It was announced some time ago, with very little or no reaction from
the mainstream media. Polish families, and what is more disgraceful - the poorest families,
very often living in poverty, are being persecuted constantly by Tusk's government.

Oh my God. Boo-hoo! I know, VAT increases are never nice. But I have brought up two children myself, and apart from small individual items like pacifiers - and apart from disposable nappies - most of the clothes, cloth nappies, toys, cots, prams, etc. that I used where either hand-me-downs from other families or things left over from when my first child was little. I know for a fact that most people behaved the same way, not because they were so poor or so frugal (it was the nineties, after all), but because babies grow so quickly out of their clothes / beds / toys.

Young mothers I know at present, on the other hand, seem to have this attitude that nothing is too good or too expensive for their child, so they buy huge amounts of toys and clothes that the child often grows out of before they even have the chance to use them. I would never say having children is exceptionally expensive. School books and shoes would probably rank highest on my list of child-rearing costs. Paradoxically, the VAT rise will be experienced most severely not by families with many children, but by novice parents who have to put together a set of "baby equipment" for the first time.

Planning to send your kids to private school and university are you? And always and only private health care?


They choose to do all those things. I, on the other hand, am forced to pay taxes which subsidise their children.


Seeing as you are well enough off to not need state help and as you are so firmly in favour of families, why don't you find a poor family and give them from your own pocket the money which they have lost because of this tax break being removed? I mean really, it's about 300zl per family. You could afford to give that much to ten families!

ok I found news from December that the government cancelled the planned withdrawal of tax deductions for children for 2011 - I think they realized such move would be suicidal in the election year - the move however escalates pressure on the FM to fight for OFE's money ( from what I gather the commission OFE's impose on money put into their 'personal accounts' deems them white collar robbers - they make HEEPS of cash not investing a single penny and regardless whether their investments are profitable ) - and in my personal view the drive by the government to seize large proportion of money that goes to OFE's is the main reason Tusk lost its media 'umbrella'

I reapeat it after an edit of my previous post so it can live some life in the discussion ;) (that's how vain I am) or rather to let the participants know (and that's so modest of me hehe :)

Maybe. I haven't thought about it yet - depends if the quality of private schools and universities
in Poland improves significantly. At the moment, the state education seems to be more reliable.


Actually - almost always. The state baby care is good enough, but when we have to go
with our daughter to any specialist (recently - ophthalmologist for example), we are practically
forced to do it privately (unless we wish to wait for a couple of weeks, or spend 3 hours
waiting in line.) I support the privatization of health service in Poland, as most of the time
I have to pay for everything anyway. Only the poorest people should be granted free
health-care. The rest of the society should pay for it, and for their money they should
get much higher quality than they do today.


But you only have that money because there are people (also children) who want to learn
English, so you have clients that pay you. It's as simple as that - you give something
and you receive something; society is not a set of individuals being lonely islands and
existing in void, but an inter-connected system. As I said, if there weren't people, mostly
young people, willing to learn English - you wouldn't have come to Poland in the first place,
and wouldn't earn any money or pay taxes here.

Actually, I am giving more than that to a family that is currently not too well off. I am paying
their rent and bills, and will continue to do so until they stand more firmly on their feet
(of course they are related to me, so you will probably tell me that, deep inside, I am just
being selfish again.)

So will you make a donation to the State Treasury to cover the cost of your kids' education or do you expect it to be subsidised by those who choose not to use the state education system?


a) I haven't taught more than a couple of hours' English lessons per week for the past five years.
b) Even when I did teach full-time I almost never taught kids.


It was the government recognising the need for Poles to be able to speak English that brought me to Poland.


Good for you. But it's not purely altruistic, is it? Will you be transferring your help when your relatives no longer need it?