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Donald Tusk's Government of Poland Continues to Oppress Poles


delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
11 Mar 2011 #91
What about the nursery bill?

What, the law in Poland is really so restrictive regarding the care of children up to the age of 3?!

No wonder I see endless amounts of small children with grandmothers on early retirement...
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
11 Mar 2011 #92
What, the law in Poland is really so restrictive regarding the care of children up to the age of 3?!

I thought it had recently changed from being some "special health care facility" to being a normal creche?
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
12 Mar 2011 #93
That is what i have heard. It is now far more easier to set on up.

Sheesh, democracy in Poland is 20 years old. You can't expect miracles from a country where the people are fundamentally socialist in nature.

You don't try to introduce a bill that will charge people to jump the Queue for treatment in a socialist country. If you would that to people they would scream blue murder and call you a fascist, in addition to a snob and then attack your manner of speaking, like in my favorite socialist example: Britain

In Poland by contrast you can get away with that because it is not a "fundamentally socialist" country, and that is what Kopacz and the rest of PO is doing.

if you look at the electoral math, there's absolutely no way that PO could reform labour law.

Well with fat Fedak in charge of labour, it is going to be a bit hard, but after the election when the arithmetic changes a bit who knows.

BTW: I would like to know what is your view on the recent changes regarding the banning of political TV ads and billboarding by PO.

 This is my view: PIS base will be unable to get inspiration from hate ads on TV and will be less motivated.
 PIS people are older so they will be unable to distribute hate filled election literature as easily.
 With a 2 day election cycle, a higher turnout will be more beneficial to PO.
 With the PO having cut government subsides to political parties by a half, means that PO will have a bigger election war chest.

I thought it had recently changed from being some "special health care facility" to being a normal creche?

this is what they have actually done:

Aby umożliwić młodym matkom szybszy powrót do pracy, rząd ułatwił zakładanie żłobków, tworzenie punktów i zespołów przedszkolnych (liczba miejsc dla przedszkolaków zwiększyła się o 190 tys.), wydłużył urlopy macierzyńskie do co najmniej 20 tygodni i wprowadził urlop ojcowski.

rough translation: enabling a quick return to work for young mothers, the gov made it easier to establish nurseries, the creation of extra preschool places( the number will increase by 190 thousand). They prolonged maternity leave to at least 20 weeks and they introduced paternity leave.

So i think it is fair to say that this pretty much punctures the OP's hysteria bubble, as well as the nonsensical rubbish put out by the pretentiously named Hitman.

I would strongly encourage anyone interested in open debate, to read this article in wyborca. To asses to premier's assessment of his governed. I find it very fair.

That is the actual article: wyborcza.pl/1,75478,9242023,Tuska_metoda_malych_krokow.html
OP Torq 32 | 2,999
12 Mar 2011 #94
So i think it is fair to say that this pretty much punctures the OP's hysteria bubble

Erm... no it doesn't really. Mothers in Czech Republic can count on very generous state
help, when they decide to stay at home with their children, and the benefits can be received
by them for a period of up to 5 years. In Poland - the government drastically increases the
number of nursery places (I won't even mention the decrease of quality, when the quantity
is increased, and lack of properly qualified staff to run all those nurseries and pre-schools),
so Polish mothers can be separated from their children and go back to their slave labour,
just to keep their families alive.
Also, the prolonging of maternity leave is nothing but fiction, which only shows how much
the current occupying, anti-Polish government is detached from everyday reality of Poles.
Even the shorter maternity leaves were very often disrespected by employers, and young
mothers were very often fired under various pathetic excuses. Prolonging the leave will
actually make it harder for them to find and keep a job.

wyborca

Wybiórcza praising der Generalgouverneur? Surprise, surprise... *rolls eyes*

To asses to premier's assessment of his governed.

To properly asses the ass's assesement of his ass government, we would have to mention
the railways scandal, increase in number of useless government officials, tragedy of state
finances and, of course, the scandalous gas deal with Greater Mongolia (also known as
Russia), resulting in Poland paying more for Mongol gas than Germany or France, to name
just a few of the nazi government's successes.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
12 Mar 2011 #95
To properly asses the ass's assesement of his ass government, we would have to mention
the railways scandal, increase in number of useless government officials

Well if you were an intellectually curious individual, you would actually read the actual article and notice where he specifically mentions the above, instead of closing your mind and propagating anti PO prejudice. That way you would have avoided the elephant trap.

It is interesting how you complain about lack of resources for mothers etc. But by the same token you complain about the government deficit. Where is the intellectual consistency in your argument?

Let me guess, you are only interested in PO bashing. The moment i disproved your original hysterical theory with some facts about what the government is doing, you go for the tried and tested rubbishing of what you cannot deny.
OP Torq 32 | 2,999
12 Mar 2011 #96
you would actually read the actual article and notice where he specifically mentions the above

I did read it.

Even he openly admits that health service reforms was a failure, that the number
of administrative workers, instead of being significantly decreased as Tusk promised,
was increased from 382 thousand in December 2007 to 457 thousand at the end
of 2010.

It is interesting how you complain about lack of resources for mothers etc. But by the same
token you complain about the government deficit. Where is the intellectual consistency in your
argument?

The money which are paid for 75,000 new, completely useless government administrative jobs
(created mainly so Platforma Obywatelska could reward their followers with lucrative positions)
could be much better spend to help mothers.

There's nothing in the link you posted...

...about the scandalous gas deal with Greater Mongolia, which merits putting the current
government before the State Tribunal for treason.

Anyway - gotta go now. Will come back later with further accurate anti-PO observations.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
12 Mar 2011 #97
Mothers in Czech Republic can count on very generous state
help, when they decide to stay at home with their children, and the benefits can be received
by them for a period of up to 5 years.

Quite frankly, 5 years is too long. There is absolutely no need for a mother to stay at home with a child for 5 years - in fact, there's not much need for her to stay at home once she's stopped breastfeeding.

Also - where's the money coming from? People don't want to pay higher social taxes - and higher earners are opposed to the concept of paying more just so some mother can stay at home instead of working. Frankly, if they want to stay at home - then their partners should pay for it.

In Poland - the government drastically increases the
number of nursery places (I won't even mention the decrease of quality, when the quantity
is increased, and lack of properly qualified staff to run all those nurseries and pre-schools),
so Polish mothers can be separated from their children and go back to their slave labour,
just to keep their families alive.

Torq, one thing that might open your eyes is that in Poland, these staff are dreadfully overqualified. There is absolutely no need on an educational level for someone to have higher education to look after a small child. In fact, I'd argue that if someone wants to look after children in a creche setting - then there should be some sort of high school programme that allows them to do so.

We don't need high quality creches - but we need places. As long as the place is clean and the people working there do the job properly in terms of looking after them, it's fine. Come on - many Western countries have the concept of childminders - people registered to look after children, often in their own home. Many of them don't have higher education and so on - but they do a great job. Of course, they're inspected and so on - as they should be.

I'd actually say that one of the big reasons that Polish education sucks is to do with the obsession with paper qualifications. I'd take a 18 year old educated with a British NVQ (sort of a vocational qualification) over a Pole with a Masters degree any day of the week.

Even the shorter maternity leaves were very often disrespected by employers, and young
mothers were very often fired under various pathetic excuses. Prolonging the leave will
actually make it harder for them to find and keep a job.

Indeed - who is going to take the risk of giving a young woman "umowa o prace" now?

A real pro-family policy would encourage women to stay in (and get back to) work as quickly as possible. In fact, I'm not against paying 2-3000zl to a mother who works until the 6th month and then who returns 6 months after the birth. It would also seem to make sense to subsidise child care for such a person. The employers would be happier, the employee would be happy and everyone wins.

we would have to mention the railways scandal

It wasn't PO that split PKP into an endless amount of companies, which has caused a lot of the current problems.

Frankly, no Polish government has seemed to be able to fix the problems that PKP have. Long term, we can see that the strategy is to close branch lines and concentrate on the core routes - not a bad thing, when there's such a lack of money. But - it's also clear that a lot of money has been spent on roads, at the expense of the railways.

It's another thread though Torq, what about it?

the scandalous gas deal with Greater Mongolia (also known as
Russia), resulting in Poland paying more for Mongol gas than Germany or France, to name
just a few of the nazi government's successes.

Who said that the French or German deal was on the table? It's a business transaction - knowing Russia, and knowing how Poland is almost totally reliant on it - why would anyone be surprised that the Russians demanded a high price? What was the alternative? Saying "nie"?
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
12 Mar 2011 #98
delphiandomine

I was wondering in my previous post:

BTW: I would like to know what is your view on the recent changes regarding the banning of political TV ads and billboarding

This is my view: PIS base will be unable to get inspiration from hate ads on TV and will be less motivated.
 PIS people are older so they will be unable to distribute hate filled election literature as easily.

With a 2 day election cycle, a higher turnout will be more beneficial to PO.

With the PO having cut government subsides to political parties by a half, means that PO will have a bigger election war chest.

I did read it.

Not the first time, until you fell into the trap.

Even he openly admits

Yes he does and isn't it refreshing having a government and a PM who are big enough to admit to their mistakes. Now remind me when was the last time Kaczynski ever admit to any of his mistakes?
THE HITMAN - | 236
12 Mar 2011 #99
pretentiously named Hitman

Hang on. I will post my real name and address like all the other members on here.

Must have touched a nerve with you though, you still haven,t named any PO successes.

Let me guess, you are only interested in PO bashing

I don,t think this is the case, you are obviously a stalwart for PO, so biased with your opinions.
I am sitting on the fence and don,t care who is governing. The principle issue of being a party worthy of government, is to have a leader who is morally a good human being, hence doing what is best for people regardless of their political beliefs.

At the moment Poles are living in an elective dictatorship. I don,t regard this as democracy.
May I quote, " When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” ...... President Thomas Jefferson.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
12 Mar 2011 #100
At the moment Poles are living in an elective dictatorship.

And how can you substantiate this moronically ludicrous proposition?

you still haven,t named any PO successes.

Being the only country in the EU to avoid a recession and maintain one of the lowest levels of debt is not an achievement to you?

When the people fear their government

WTF: Who exactly fears his or her government in Poland?

We are not talking about the former US administration run by a country hick.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
12 Mar 2011 #101
BTW: I would like to know what is your view on the recent changes regarding the banning of political TV ads and billboarding

Ah, I missed that.

I think it's a cynical move to try and entrench Polish politics along the PO/PiS divide. Both of them are strong enough to survive without it - but it will really hurt the SLD and PSL, as well as making sure that independent parties won't get a foothold.

With a 2 day election cycle, a higher turnout will be more beneficial to PO.

Indeed. I'm not a fan, personally - there's no need.

With the PO having cut government subsides to political parties by a half, means that PO will have a bigger election war chest.

This will help PiS and PO and hurt the others. I don't think there should be any state funding at all - it's rather disgraceful that Poland is spending money on politics rather than the people that need it. Funnily enough, it was the socialist PiS that opposed cutting State funding completely. Can you say "pork barrel"?

The principle issue of being a party worthy of government, is to have a leader who is morally a good human being, hence doing what is best for people regardless of their political beliefs.

Tusk is doing a great job for my pocket at the minute. People feel like they have money to spend - which makes me richer. I'd say that as human society is based on money - this means he's doing the right thing.

Now, if you want to talk about what's best for people - well, cutting early retirement provisions, working towards a system where everyone works for an equal time before retirement is morally the right thing to do. Morally, he also stood up for the people when the Church tried to interfere in the IVF debate - believing in the right of a democratically elected assembly to decide things, not some institution led by a dictator.

At the moment Poles are living in an elective dictatorship. I don,t regard this as democracy.

May I draw your attention to the PSL, who can topple the government *at any time*?
THE HITMAN - | 236
12 Mar 2011 #102
Being the only country in the EU to avoid a recession and maintain one of the lowest levels of debt is not an achievement to you?

That was thanks to EU funding. PO themselves have admitted they need the same levels given 2003-2013 from the next EU budget to maintain economic stability. I don,t think this will happen. Rostowski is saying Poland will meet the current requirements of the EU by 2012, then Tusk contradicts this when he says personally, that he doesn,t think the time limit is adequate to meet EUs criteria. Are these guys from the same party ?

And how can you substantiate this moronically ludicrous proposition?

Does the government take notice of what the electorate want ? No. They are amending bills regardless. ( to suit their own politics ).

Who exactly fears his or her government in Poland?

Are you residing in Poland ? There is only a limited " freedom of speech ". Poles are still afraid to cross the line. Say the wrong thing and you wind up in court, ultimately prison.

May I draw your attention to the PSL, who can topple the government *at any time*?

Like I said, it doesn,t matter who governs, ( and I don,t know what manifestos they have ) but that the intentions are to serve the people, not the ruling party.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
12 Mar 2011 #103
That was thanks to EU funding. PO themselves have admitted they need the same levels given 2003-2013 from the next EU budget to maintain economic stability.

Indeed - Poland has got addicted to EU money, and now that the Big 3 have said "enough" - they're in trouble. It's not just a PO issue, but rather a Polish issue. Of course, Poland didn't really expect that there was going to be a crisis anyway - but now, spending has to be slashed because the EU won't be making it up.

Does the government take notice of what the electorate want ? No. They are amending bills regardless. ( to suit their own politics ).

The electorate has endorsed their politics in 2007 and twice in 2010. Opinion polls are currently showing PO as flying high and on course to repeat their 2007 result. I'd say that their politics are doing just fine with the Polish people.

Are you residing in Poland ? There is only a limited " freedom of speech ". Poles are still afraid to cross the line. Say the wrong thing and you wind up in court, ultimately prison.

Would that be like how Lech Kaczynski and the homeless man? PiS were and are *far* worse for this than PO - heck, PO haven't even bothered with most of the attacks on them by the opposition.

Like I said, it doesn,t matter who governs, ( and I don,t know what manifestos they have ) but that the intentions are to serve the people, not the ruling party.

The people are being served just fine right now.

Sure, things aren't perfect, but as I said - it's a young democracy. You can't expect everything to be perfect - and in Poland, the proportional representation system means that it's pretty easy for one man to build a movement.

It is terribly Polish however to sit around and complain about things rather than actually changing things. If the Government sucks - start your own party!
THE HITMAN - | 236
12 Mar 2011 #104
It is terribly Polish however to sit around and complain about things rather than actually changing things. If the Government sucks - start your own party!

Whether Poland rises or falls, doesn,t affect me personally. And I,m not " complaining ", simply putting my points of view across.
That,s what the forum is all about, the good and bad, the rights and wrongs. Good thread however. Interesting reading others views and helps pass some time. Logging off now, but will be back later. Nice debating with you again btw. *goes to find out how to start ones party* LOL.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
12 Mar 2011 #105
*goes to find out how to start ones party* LOL.

Quite easy - you go to the court, register an association, pay some fees and wait for a couple of weeks.

I was tempted to register a party called "Poland is doing fine".

The truth is that Poland needs to swallow some pretty nasty medicine. And in a sense, you're correct - none of the governments are willing to administer such medicine, because they'll get wiped out in the next election if they do so.

We had economic shock therapy in 1990, now we need social shock therapy in 2011.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
12 Mar 2011 #106
Are you residing in Poland ? There is only a limited " freedom of speech ". Poles are still afraid to cross the line. Say the wrong thing and you wind up in court, ultimately prison.

That is complete crap, that can be only put forward by a conspiracy theorist.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
12 Mar 2011 #107
Funnily enough, if we want to talk about press freedom -

We can see that from the years 1990-2005, Poland was becoming freer and freer. Suddenly, in 2005, 2006 and 2007, we saw a sudden reversal of the press freedom. Then in 2008 onwards, we can see that the press freedom rankings improved again.

The last government did more than any other government from 1990-2011 to restrict freedom of speech. In fact - the last government was so concerned about press freedom that they even used the security agencies to spy on journalists!

Thankfully, it seems rather unlikely that the current President will ever attempt to drag someone into court for insulting him.

One thing that Poland should rightfully fear is for their freedom if PiS ever manage (unlikely) to put together a solid majority in the Sejm. The actions in the last government, and the words of the current president of PiS concerning what he'd do with people who "said the wrong thing about Smolensk" should be enough to motivate Poles never, ever, ever to consider returning them to power.
THE HITMAN - | 236
12 Mar 2011 #108
That is complete crap

Is it ?
Then why does it happen in PL. ?
The minute someone offends someone else ( normally politicians ), they face court action. If I was to have a conversation with someone in public and was to be overheard expressing my opinions on, for example, a minister, I could officially be cited.

In the UK I could air my misgivings on Cameron, Clegg or Brown, and no one gives a 5hit.
The primary word in this argument is " opinion ", to which everybody has a right, to their own opinion. Get it ?
No conspiracy theory about it. If the Polish public can,t freely express what they feel, then who,s running the show ?

if PiS ever manage (unlikely) to put together a solid majority in the Sejm.

Are we talking party politics and the next election here ? I thought the topic was on the current gov. oppression.
BTW who had more media coverage in the past 4 years ?
Want to talk percentages ?
Harry
12 Mar 2011 #109
If you can't afford to have children, don't have them. If you can't afford them & want them, work harder.

I want to spend five years at home on full salary with my beer: are you going to pay for my lifestyle choice?
OP Torq 32 | 2,999
12 Mar 2011 #110
If you can't afford to have children, don't have them. If you can't afford them & want them, work harder.

That is a correct approach, providing that you live in a capitalist country, with capitalist laws,
taxes and regulations regarding economy. In a country where there are excessively high, socialist taxes, and ridiculous labour law which limits the possibility of employment and earning

money, the government which introduces and enforces such socialist laws should give socialist
handouts and help those who can't raise their families on a proper level because of raging
socialism.

That is the problem with PO government - they want to gather socialist taxes without giving
anything in return. I'm afraid it doesn't work that way. You can either have capitalism with low
taxes and no oppressive beaurocracy, and give up state handouts (a good idea) or you can
have socialism with beaurocracy and high taxes and give the oppressed population handouts
(a worse idea, but still an idea.)

Unfortunately, Tusk's government would like to have socialist taxes and administration (they
created 75,000 new, completely useless jobs in administration for PO members and followers),
and don't give anything out as social benefits. He would kind of like to have the best of
socialism and capitalism for his family, friends and followers, and the worst for ordinary Poles.
Sorry, it ain't gonna happen, Herr Generalgouverneur Tusk.

I want to spend five years at home on full salary with my beer: are you going to pay for my lifestyle choice?

I suggest you put all your intelligence and wit into writing a letter to the government of
the Czech Republic, explaining to them what idiots they are for giving handouts to young
mothers.

But maybe (just maybe) the Czechs are not idiots, and for some reason they believe that
helping mothers to raise and support their children is somehow beneficial to their state?
I don't know - ask them, Harry. While you're at it, ask them why do they think only 60,000
Czechs have left their country since 2004, whilst in the same period about 3,000,000
Poles did the same.
Harry
12 Mar 2011 #111
I don't know - ask them, Harry. While you're at it, ask them why do they think only 60,000
Czechs have left their country since 2004, whilst in the same period about 3,000,000 Poles did the same.

Two words: Zywiec, Budweiser. Any questions?

And no I don't mean American Bud!
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
12 Mar 2011 #112
In a country where there are excessively high, socialist taxes, and ridiculous labour law which limits the possibility of employment and earning
money, the government which introduces and enforces such socialist laws should give socialist
handouts and help those who can't raise their families on a proper level because of raging
socialism.

That's why I wonder where the money goes? The government taxes and taxes and yet never comes up even. Where the f does the money go? It's ridiculous! With all the taxing they do, they shouldn't have any money problems, period. It's just corruption, plain and simple. They won't address it, instead they just want more tax money from people who cannot afford it. At least have the decency to tax the ones who can, instead!
Crow 139 | 8,566
12 Mar 2011 #113
listen to me people, i personally feel oppressed by Tusk`s government

i suffer. Many people in Serbia suffer because of Tusk`s policy
OP Torq 32 | 2,999
12 Mar 2011 #114
i personally feel oppressed by Tusk`s government

I always knew you were a Pole at heart, Crow ;)
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
12 Mar 2011 #115
Thankfully, it seems rather unlikely that the current President will ever attempt to drag someone into court for insulting him.

One thing that Poland should rightfully fear is for their freedom if PiS ever manage

I have to agree with that.

The minute someone offends someone else ( normally politicians ), they face court action. If I was to have a conversation with someone in public and was to be overheard expressing my opinions on, for example, a minister, I could officially be cited.

Either you have absolutely no idea of how the system works in Poland, or you are a liar. You can offend Polish politicians as much as you want to, and nothing will happen to you. I lived in few countries and I Follow th UK press, and i cannot think of another country were the public debate is as personal, vicious or robust as in Poland.

I can assure you there is no one in Poland who is afraid of insulting a politician, some people do it as a pastime.

Make false allegations on the other hand, that is a different matter, and it potentially exposes th person making the allegations to a charge of slander-look it up in the dictionary.
THE HITMAN - | 236
12 Mar 2011 #116
Either you have absolutely no idea of how the system works in Poland, or you are a liar.

I,ve been living in Poland for the last 15 years, so I have absolutely no idea.

Gee, you must be one of their PR doctors, why don't you shut up yourself, anybody with a brain can see, that they are doing fukk-all for Poland, maybe for their cronies and themselves life is golden but not for general population !

Says it all.

look it up in the dictionary.

Impertinence ?
1jola 14 | 1,879
12 Mar 2011 #117
One thing that Poland should rightfully fear is for their freedom if PiS ever manage (unlikely) to put together a solid majority in the Sejm.

Is that why 60% of prisoners voted for Komorowski(PO) and only 14% for Kaczynski(PiS). Yeah, you make sense as usual. But I don't blame you, you've only been here a couple of years and you contact with Polish people, the press, and history books is very limited - enough to sound stupid to anyone familiar with the situation in this country.

It is hard to find someone more mainstream than you here. You are in the herd, it is safe and non-controversial there, you will not stand out. Congratulations, you are a wannabe conformist. They have something in common with you though. They want to be Europeans first(whatever that might mean), and Poles second; you used to be Scottish and now "I feel more European than Scottish." How does this remind us who remember the communists and their cosmopolitanism and internationalism.

There hasn't been so much power consolidated in one party (PO) since communist times. Sejm and the Senate, the PM and the President, total domination of public and private TV stations( every conservative program eliminated, every one), and you don't see anything wrong with that. Their party's program is to fight the opposition. That is it. Oh yeah, raising taxes, increasing drastically the administration positions( up 60,000 in the last two years, am I right), screwing the young, the old, and the working stiffs. Brilliant. They recently "negotiated" the Gas deal with Russia in which we have the most expensive gas in entire Europe and no alternative sources. Who are they bargaining for? Russia or Poland? They handed over the investigation of the worst air crash in our history to some third rate MAK in which they can't even get the original black boxes back one year after the crash. Have you ever seen a crash investigation where the pieced are just dumped onto the tarmac in the open air? Do you know what Russian dissidents say about the present Polish government? - Servants, bowing low. Hardly a compliment. The PM is on the ropes and even his own party is turning their heads away. He is pretty much finished. He sucks indeed, and frankly your never ending presence here does too, only because you know little but talk much.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
13 Mar 2011 #118
here hasn't been so much power consolidated in one party (PO) since communist times. Sejm and the Senate, the PM and the President, total domination of public and private TV stations( every conservative program eliminated, every one), and you don't see anything wrong with that. Their party's program is to fight the opposition. That is it.

complete BS
Bzibzioh
13 Mar 2011 #119
Opinion of someone living in Warsaw vs opinion of someone living in Australia about current political situation in Poland ... hmmm.. who am I going to believe?
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
13 Mar 2011 #120
Says it all.

Yes it does, how you and the OP project any personal problems in your own lives on the government.

A government who has maintained one of the lowest deficits in the EU, by being brave enough to resist the temptation to spend when that was all the rage in the EU.

A government with the best finance minister in Europe-according to Bankers magazine.

A foreign minister who holds his own in the EU, and whose CV easily outshines that of his counterparts in the EU-now that Kirchner is no longer France's foreign minister.

A health minister who refused to buy useless stocks of anti Bird flu vaccine from monopolists, that would have cost hundreds of millions.

Yes it is a damn good government, and no matter how many ill informed ad hominem attacks you launch wont alter that fact. Luckily the people of Poland are a lot more smarter than the OP and yourself, and PO will win a deserved second term in office. whilst you guys can do something to yourself and join the rest of the nutters, anti Semites and loons of every stripe and colour in front of the presidential palace.


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