Abortion still under control in Poland

Oh an caring uncle creeps along - I care so much that I will kill. Do you hear what you saying D?

That analogy would only work if people would adhere to it completely, which means that no one would interfere with the fate of those children at all. Yet children born with physical effects are not simply left to die, but thanks to modern medicine live a lot longer than if they'd receive no care. However this can also lead to a prolonging of suffering and children, who might not even have survived birth are now left to suffer perhaps for years or possibly decades.


Prisoners are usally relatively cheap, since they live in large facilities that are often cost-effective and require not much work from individual workers. That is why it is e.g. cheaper in the USA to send someone to life in prison than to execute him, because the bureaucratic and legal process for the death penalty is way more expensive. And nevermind that there is no alternative to having prisons since you can't execute everyone who breaks the law (and even then you would need a prison to house them).

The same counts for the care of disabled children. Intensive care for a child (e.g. for those who need machines et. al to life) costs easily for than sending someone to prison for decades. And those who live longer and require not so much medical help, the expenses are still significant. E.g. if they go to a special school, they'll need trained personal, and they might not be able to earn their money for their entire life. So in short, another myth busted.

@Atch


That is precisely the problem. People might have some patience with a mentally disabled person, e.g. when he does something stupid in public, but once he becomes an adult that changes- The disabled child I knew never understood the concept of "paying" for something, so whenever he was hungry he went to a supermarket, took something and left. As long as he was a child, the supermarket had patience with him and simply sent the bill to his parents. But once he was above a certain age, they started calling the police and eventually banned him from entering the supermarket, something he did not understand either. The person in question was otherwise very kind and nother caused others trouble, but this was a real problem, because we lived in a small village with not much options.His parents eventually bribed the owner to still let him in, because otherwise he would not be able to go on a small walk unsupervised, but this would not be an option for family with small income.

Indeed they are Iron, but there is no way to fix a severely disabled child with brain damage for example, so that child has very few options. As usual we will never agree on this, you think it's preferable that a child has a miserable life full of pain and suffering just so long as it's born. I think that is a very selfish attitude.


I would love to know the statistics on how many severely disabled children are adopted, I suspect very very few, especially given the lifetime financial cost. The rest will be in institutions, and yes, some will die.


So when it suits you, the right to life should be denied?But you agreed with me in that no-one should have the right to play God

Developments in medicine are having their effect in the UK. People who once wouldn't have survived past infancy are living longer and having utterley wretched lives. Not just people who can't make eye contact for three seconds, people who literally don't know they're alive, but people who do have some consciousness and survive to some point in childhood or adolescence in constant pain.

It is an act of cruelty to use science to prolong the lives of people in that situation.

No, I have been sarcastic here. Its illustrates ( at least to me) what a bunch of hypocrites those people are, those so called liberals who stand against the capital punishment. At the same time they deny the right to live to unborn children. After all CP can be considering a self-defense of a social against individuals who proved by their DEEDS they are a burden and a danger to others.

Capital punishment can be justified ethically. So called eugenic abortion cannot.

OK. few facts, many of those children who had been recognized as suffering potentially of some or other disability has been born a perfectly healthy babies.

I don't have statistic on hand but reliability of those prenatal examinations is very low. Extremely low I think (don't take my word for it) that reliable sources I have read tell about 50/50 at best.

Well, I wouldn't take those odds bungee jumping let alone determine who should live and who should die - if I were an atheist that is.

From a moral point of view the case is quite clear, people have no right to play God. What happens after birth is a part of life. No-one can predict what will happen to people, even healthy children or individuals met whit dead and sickness and sufferings.

Some things are beyond human control.


I think that you attitude is what amount to a phrase 'play God'. Is not for you to decide, everyone has ought to be give a chance, better to live a little if not at all. I didn't wanted to be judgmental in our little talk. Didn't not to make some sweeping generalization. If someone has to deal with a disabled or potentially disabled child is no piking, it is very hard and awful situation.

However the bottom line is that sometimes it appears it is easier to kill such a child than to deal with emotional ( not talking about financial issues here) consequences of bringing to this world of a disabled or suffering child.

So in a sense an eugenic abortion is an escape route, that is kind of selfish.
I personally don't gain anything from my stance on the issue - I stand for what I believe is right. For a live and for a fair chance for everyone. How that can be selfish?


Well, it is immoral to use advancement in medial science and use a very unreliable method of prenatal examination to justify eugenic abortion.

No need to justify terminations, I-S. It's a woman's decision.

the hell it is.

It's certainly nobody else's decision. And carrying it out is as easy as a trip to a doctor.

You mean a woman's final solution to carryout the termination of the life of her baby.

Although not all pregnancies are planned most of them quite simply are not a result of a woman not giving consent.

But to say a women has responsibilities towards others as a result of her own personal decisions (and especially when exercised through the rights and free will granted to her) would be a bridge too far for the extreme left.

A woman can't get pregnant without a man being involved so you obviously don't believe in genuine equality between men and women.

You do however fully endorse feminist goals of female supremacy in society where the rights and consent of a biological father are not given any consideration at all when his child is aborted and where the life of the baby is simply discarded with the remains unceremoniously incinerated, dumped down a drain, or tossed into a landfill.

A woman's choice indeed and a solipsistic one at that.

Yes. Nobody else's.

what a tough topic to debate but I cant help but think of Dr Stephen Hawking who suffers form of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, If their was a test would have his parents chosen to abort him ?

sometimes I think it is better to be like schroeder's cat and ignore what science has to offer.

@jon357

I see your pro-abortion stance is firm.

Great.

Science and medicine are converging on the conclusion that homosexuality is biologically determined.

With that said you would fully support a woman's choice to abort a child once it can be determined it would be born gay.

Really no different than screening for other types of defects or carrying out the practice of female infanticide (aka sex-selective abortion).

I'm glad you agree.

Sadly there would be plenty of couples that would do this, hence my comment of ignoring science.

Not in Poland.
For others I advice to go one step further and introduce a new law - no punishment for killing. At least that would be a coherent and logical legalization.

Regardless of whether you or I support it, the decision to continue with a pregnancy or not is a woman's. No reason needed - only the wherewithal to go to a clinic.

I can see your point there jon however tell me just what percentage of abortions in Poland are because of deformed babies are we talking about here ?

By the sounds of some of the members justification to murder here that 90% of the abortions in Poland are because of "physical or mental issues" of the unborn rather then reality of the "inconvenience" of the baby to the irresponsible parents.

Given that most abortions connected to PL are either done discreetly or abroad, I doubt such a statistic exists.

Well I hope we don't lose too many brilliant scientists or great gay comedians.

And a woman would be the one most motivated to terminate a queer baby inside of her.

But hey, her body, her choice.


And to think people used to regard eugenics as a hallmark of fascism.

We can never know. The person whose daughter or son might one day have developed a cure for cancer could have drowned trying to get to Europe from a war-torn region of the world..


Indeed it is.

Indeed Jon, but there again we dont want the knobs who would come over to continue their wire scams, drug rings, acts of terror , extortion rape murder ...

Thats why be it potential refugee and pregnant women would benefit from proper support and counselling, and vetting of course for the refugee.

Its all about diligence and there is no harm in that is there, sadly it seems to be a service that is in short supply.

Nah. Just do a search. The recent cancer cure breakthroughs are already happening in Europe, North America and Asia. Not low IQ, war-torn Africa or low IQ, war-torn Middle East.

Hey, once all the queers are selectively aborted who will be doing the hairdressing, flower arranging, and flight attendant work?

At least the fashion world will no longer be dominated by gay men and can finally be filled by heterosexual women.

Better still, society will finally be spared anymore "pride" parades and we can finally rid ourselves of laws and advocacy pandering to gay rights and same sex couples.

Hard to know what 'wire scams' you mean, or how that's related to a woman's inalienable right to choose what she does with her body.


The danger is that anti-abortionists would wat to interfere in this. Or weirdos, like the poster above.

No I am talking about medical and psychiatric professionals .

Hard to know what 'wire scams' you mean.

Bongo bongo 419 etc.

How about her choosing of being irresponsible from the get go ?
Is it her right to choose what she does to her babies body/life too ?
Christians see it one way and Unbelievers see it in just the opposite like in most cases of morality.


There is already a cure for cancer.

Not a matter for you or I.


:-D

Wrong. Poland, like many countries, has a publicly funded health care system.

Pro-choice women and their homosexual supporters want abortion on demand and they want it paid for with public funding.

That's why "poor women" are always mentioned when demands are being made even though it is career focused middle class women wanting the access.

You'll never hear them argue that an abortion should be means tested when it comes to who pays to cover the financial costs.

So if the public pays for an abortion then the public has a right to ration when one is carried out.

Wrong, the innocent helpless life being murdered makes it my matter and any other person with any morals.
How about the innocent helpless during the Holocaust ?
Should we not have made that a matter for us either ?

And there's not a thing you can do to stop any woman from terminating her pregnancy.

No matter how oppressive the judicial framework is around this, it still happens regardless.

I agree in that sometimes against the odds, a baby can turn out to be ok, or less disabled than is first thought, but I would say that is the exception rather than the rule. Scans these days are very accurate and a doctor can make a pretty good prediction based on scans as to what foetal abnormailities are present.


It's not the governments decision either, I really think they should leave things as they are now. 95% of legal abortions performed in Poland in 2016 were due to foetal abnormalities, so changing the law will prevent abortion in the majority of cases.


I wouldn't underestimate those emotional consequences if I were you. Good parents would look at the whole picture. From cradle to grave. A child born with severe disabilities may live a normal life span. Who will look after the adult once the parents are gone? Have you considered that? I know a couple in this very position. Their child is now an adult, wheelchair bound, unable to communicate, and brain damaged. All they worry about is what will happen to him when they are gone. I admire them both tremendously, because there is no way that I could bring up a child like that as they have. That was their choice, but I don't believe that mothers should be forced into this position.


Because i don't believe that is a fair chance for everyone. I think it's anything but fair, both for the child enduring a lifetime of suffering and for the parents. I understand your stance on this as you feel as strongly as I do, but I stand for what i believe is right too.