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Abortion still under control in Poland


peterweg 37 | 2,321
14 Jan 2018 #1,411
eugenic is NAZIs invention

They may have practiced it but they didn't invent it.
America peformed it in the 1920's and ancent civilisations killed their defective babies at birth.
Tacitus 2 | 1,228
14 Jan 2018 #1,412
The question that interests me most is whether the Polish governments intents to help those parents who (arrcording to the proposal) would be obliged to raise a (mentally or physically) heavily disabled child?

Because raising a such a child is an immense burden, no reason to sugarcoat it. Not to mention that - depending on the condition of the person in question - it might be dependable on outside assistance for the rest of its' life.

There used to live a mentally disabled person a few streets away from my house, who was cared for by his already old parents. He was a nice, cheerful person, and when I talked with his parents a few times it became clear that they loved him very much. But he could be very taxing, and it probably only worked so well because his parents were relatively wealthy. A single mother who would have to work would be hopelessly overstrained with this. If the Polish governments intents to go through with this proposal, they better make sure that there are enough places in schools for those children, and that the parents received appropiate assistance.
gregy741 4 | 1,204
14 Jan 2018 #1,413
The question that interests me most is whether the Polish governments intents to help those parents

TO make things clear.PIS government have no intention to implement this pro life bill,even kaczynski voted against it already,tho he voted for liberal one(shockingly)

.there are too few PIS members of parliament who support it at the moment.
i guess,if they decide to proceed it,they will have to find money to support those families.
Chemikiem 7 | 2,497
15 Jan 2018 #1,414
polish populace that want to tighten current legislation and it is due to their pressure on parliament

I'm skeptical about that, In my opinion it is the Catholic Church exerting it's influence and wanting a total ban on abortion. I have done much reading on this topic and in my opinion the majority of Poles do not want abortion legalised as it is in the UK for example, but in a recent poll, more people were happy with the current legislation than with changing the law to restrict it further. Of course this is all subject to change in the future.

As for the numbers of illegal abortions performed, of course these are estimates, no-one can say for sure. The numbers were provided by the Federation for Women and Family Planning, Poland's oldest reproductive rights organisation.

None can force anyone to take care for such a child.

Really Iron? Do you think the average Polish woman working minimum wage for example can afford a termination if that's what she wants after being told her baby will be born severely disabled? She is left with two choices, have an illegal abortion with all the risks that entails, or have the baby. How can you say that women in this situation are not being forced? It is exactly that through having little other choice.

As Tacitus has also pointed out, who will be footing the bill for the lifetime of care needed for these children? It is one thing for the government to try and enforce a new law, but are they going to put their money where their mouth is?

Plus you seem to portray mothers as being little more than incubators, only thinking of themselves. Have you actually given any consideration to the life a child with severe disabilities would have? A life time of pain and suffering possibility? You cannot look at this from only one perspective.

PIS government have no intention to implement this pro life bill,even kaczynski voted against it already

Do you have a source for this? As far as I know the decision to work on a new bill was passed in the lower house of parliament last week. On Saturday protestors were back out on the street:-

dw.com/en/poland-pro-choice-activists-protest-proposed-abortion-restrictions/a-42139575
Crow 146 | 9,109
15 Jan 2018 #1,415
Ever present abortion is just for beginning. If we Slavs stays in EU, we would be forced to introduce castration. They will cut our penises if we are stupid to let them. Mark my words.
Sparks11 - | 335
15 Jan 2018 #1,416
oko.press/juz-42-proc-polakow-liberalizacja-ustawy-antyaborcyjnej-nowy-sondaz-oko-press

According go this only a small and decreasing percent of people want to make the laws stricter. most want it to stay the same or liberalize
Crow 146 | 9,109
15 Jan 2018 #1,417
I`m aware of that. Its disaster.
Bieganski 17 | 901
15 Jan 2018 #1,418
It's amazing how women in Africa (a place notorious for being ridden with war, disease, malnutrition, and virtually non-existent health care) can easily pump out five children and they are still healthy enough (mother and entire brood) to then cross the continent on foot in order to settle in Europe.

But in Europe with its modern socialized healthcare system women have less than two children on average. And if you believe the bossy feminist lies (even in this thread) these same European women are always faced with giving birth to children who are conceived through rape or incest; their children are very likely to have terminal disabilities; and the mothers are somehow always at an above normal risk of dying during childbirth.

Why not add to the argument that having fewer children in Europe will be better for the environment (and reduce racism too!) while making room for more third world economic migrants.

Oh look, it's already being pushed:


jon357 66 | 16,977
15 Jan 2018 #1,419
It's amazing how women in Africa

That would be the same Africa that has the highest infant mortality rates in the world.

Far from 'easily'. Not 'pumping out' either.
Bieganski 17 | 901
15 Jan 2018 #1,420
Spare us your crocodile tears.

An average of five children per woman in Africa is well over twice the population replacement level. Africa's current 1.2 billion population is expected to double by 2050.

Africa (along with the Middle East and Asia) are where the unsustainable strains on the global environment are coming from.

Poland and the rest of Europe shouldn't be a sponge for this unneeded global surplus in human beings.
jon357 66 | 16,977
15 Jan 2018 #1,421
Spare us your crocodile tears.

There you go again.

I wonder if you really pretend to think that women

can easily pump out five children

I hope not.

Anyway, a woman (not that you have much or any experience with those if the quote above is anything to go by) and a woman alone chooses how many times she gives birth.
Bieganski 17 | 901
15 Jan 2018 #1,422
a woman (not that you have much or any experience with those if the quote above is anything to go by)

Listen to you, the out and proud homosexual, questioning someone else's experience with women.

a woman alone chooses how many times she gives birth.

Women in other parts of the world are proud to be mothers several times over unlike in screechy feminized countries where women are told and willingly comply with the narrative that having any children is a social and financial burden as well as a life threatening danger to both mother and child.
jon357 66 | 16,977
15 Jan 2018 #1,423
Evidently far, far more than yours if you think that women:

can easily pump out five children

screechy feminized countries

You were saying...
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
15 Jan 2018 #1,424
in screechy feminized countries

One can only wonder why you willingly chose to live in one of the most feminine countries in the world in that case.

Still, your lack of experience with women is quite clear.
Tacitus 2 | 1,228
15 Jan 2018 #1,425
Raising children is usually an economic burden since the times when those children provided for their parents in old age are usually over in Europe (there are of course children who provide for their parents in old age, but this is not obligatory and depends heavily on choices the parents have no control over, e.g. how many children their child get themself).

Raising mentally or physically impaired children can be very taxing, physically, mentally and economically. Parents will devote their money and time possibly for the end of their lives for their child. It seems only fair that if the government would decide to ban abortions, it would make sure that those parents get as much help as possible.
Ironside 50 | 10,935
16 Jan 2018 #1,426
n my opinion it is the Catholic Church exerting it's influence

The CC has of curse its teaching and dogmas but that pressure is mounted by as a significant movement of the lay populace. Polish people have no love-hate relationship with their authorities like Brits, neither they have a ruling class. Their attitude is more akin to the attitude of Americans (at least before progressivism) towards government and politicians.

This attitude is extended towards the clergy and especially bishops.
So this constant suspicion of the CC exerting some shrouded in the darkness mystery influence is misplaced. Either it is projection or a distant reminiscence of anti-Catholic frenzy that had been mounted by it ruling class against Catholic in a certain protestant country.

RCC has as much influence as the lay populace let them.
Yes, that what as I have said - majority is happy with the current legislation. Sorry, for bungling my previous post to you, it is a result of my poor attempts at eloquence while tied.

I meant that more people in the populace want that law tighten than relax it. By the big margin.

"How can you say that women in this situation are not being forced?"
They are not being forced to take care for such a child. They can give it up. They are not being forced to impregnate themselves. They are only being forced to deliver a baby once their are already pregnant.

So no, they are they own people who can do what they want as long as they don't want to kill a child they carry for whatever reason.

Such reasoning that you can kill another human being if you find a reason good enough for it, is immoral.
Killing is OK only in self- defence.

ccording go this only a small and decreasing percent of people want to make the laws stricter. most want it to stay the same or liberalize@ Sparks11

That some BS data. Rather the opposite is true. Few people wants to liberalize the law. There is growing number of people who want to make the law stricter.
Sparks11 - | 335
16 Jan 2018 #1,427
That some BS data. Rather the opposite is true.

Can you post something to prove this. What I hear from people reflects more what the graph says than what you say. Almost no one wants to restrict it further. I would say the general consensus is leave it alone
jon357 66 | 16,977
16 Jan 2018 #1,428
What I hear from people reflects more what the graph says than what you say

Indeed, there is little appetite from women to make the current strict law any stricter. And judicial oppression has never stopped women in Poland from getting a foetus flushed out if that is what they want to do - the doctors who perform the procedure advertise in newspapers and online, plus anybody who has a bit more cash just pops to London.
Tacitus 2 | 1,228
16 Jan 2018 #1,429
Or to Germany. Some clinics in e.g. Görlitz and Frankfurt (Oder) have more Polish than German patients.
Ironside 50 | 10,935
16 Jan 2018 #1,430
Or to Germany.

Why serve this old commie dish again and again? Logical fallacy written all over it.
People are committing crimes hence there should be no laws if they commit them regardless. You are not quite right in the heads are you?

Rather you would dish out any old HS in hope it works.
jon357 66 | 16,977
16 Jan 2018 #1,431
Some clinics in e.g. Görlitz and Frankfurt (Oder) have more Polish than German patients.

Most clinics near the border almost certainly do, and I remember reading that in the UK, 20% of pregnancy terminations are for patients who are Polish citizens.

People are committing crimes

Not a crime in either the UK or Germany.

And of course the thousands of doctors who carry out the procedure discreetly in Poland. Not that discreet always, since they advertise a 'full range of services'.
Chemikiem 7 | 2,497
17 Jan 2018 #1,432
They are only being forced to deliver a baby once their are already pregnant.

Yes exactly, that is what I have been saying and no-one should have the right to play God. Of course a woman also has the option to give the child up for adoption, but who is going to take on a severely disabled child? What would happen is that the child would go to an orphanage and very likely spend the rest of it's days there. What quality of life do you think a child would have under those circumstances? A life in various institutions....with lots of pain and suffering.

This is what I really don't get about the anti-abortion argument because all that matters is a live birth, there seems to be little regard as to what sort of life the child will have.

I rather question morality or even humanity of those who would kill a child their own flesh and blood out of convenience for themselves. It barbarity.

Why would you think of it only from the angle of convenience? A mother hearing that she is carrying a severely disabled child is going to be devastated at that news. I would imagine that the majority of mothers are firstly going to give consideration as to what sort of life their child would have. You talk of barbarity, but I think it is barbaric that a child should have to endure a lifetime of suffering, and just as barbaric that a government is trying to force a decision on women that will change their lives and that of their families forever.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
17 Jan 2018 #1,433
A life in various institutions....with lots of pain and suffering.

It's been brought up repeatedly in Polish debate that the pro-lifers are remarkably unwilling to contribute financially to such institutions.
Atch 17 | 3,427
18 Jan 2018 #1,434
Such people generally don't really care what happens to a disabled child after it's born. Money aside, you won't see them volunteering or spending even 10 minutes once a week, at the bedside of a severely disabled child, and even less so, that child when it becomes an adult, stroking its head and wiping the saliva from its face. No. That's somebody elses's responsibility.
johnny reb 28 | 5,290
18 Jan 2018 #1,435
no-one should have the right to play God.

Well you can't have it both ways Pam.

I think it is barbaric that a child should have to endure a lifetime of suffering,

You seem to be the one playing God by determining who should live and who should die.
Just saying................
veikkopl 2 | 19
18 Jan 2018 #1,436
Why would anyone need an illegal abortion? Why couldn't you go across the border somewhere?
jon357 66 | 16,977
18 Jan 2018 #1,437
A hundred reasons. Family wondering where you are, childcare committments, work, village gossip, money, etc.
Taxpaying voter
18 Jan 2018 #1,438
That's somebody elses's responsibility.

If every lawmaker who wanted to vote to ban abortion knew that that same day they would be given a severely disabled baby to care for for the rest of its life, there would never be a ban on abortion.
Ironside 50 | 10,935
18 Jan 2018 #1,439
es exactly, that is what I have been saying and no-one should have the right to play God.

Indeed and in this scenario our hypothetical woman want to play God.

What quality of life

No one - should have the right to play God. We are not omniscient we know nothing about the future, we can only guess. That is not enough to make life and dead decisions.

ll that matters is a live birth,

Well, the right to life is a fundamental one. Once you are alive all sort of things are possible, by killing a life you take away all those possibilities. No-one has the right to play God. That is a good phrase. That is simple enough.

No, such a law would stop women that want to play God.
Look I can empathize with such a woman on individual basis. Never the less, such a child go do to adoption, to care or even can die due to natural causes.

The main issue here is, once we start decide who should live and who should die - where that gonna stop.
That is one moral downslope from there.
Communism illustrates well what happens if every rule, even moral and ethical one is crated by a human whim unbounded by any restrain.
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
18 Jan 2018 #1,440
all that matters is a live birth, there seems to be little regard as to what sort of life the child will have.

I am not having that Chemikiem. That is simply not true.
There is NO regard.


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