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Abortion still under control in Poland


Chemikiem 7 | 2,497
13 Jan 2018 #1,381
And here we go again.....
Despite mass protests before, PiS seem determined to get their way and tighten up the already restrictive abortion laws.
A new abortion law is being planned, this time banning abortion due to irreversible damage to the foetus, the main reason for the majority of legal abortions in Poland.

So despite the fact that a foetus may be so severely damaged that it has little to no chance of survival, a woman will be forced to go through with the pregnancy if this law is passed, to say nothing of those women who will be forced, no matter their circumstances, to bring up a severely disabled child that will require life long care. Modern day horror story.

uk.reuters.com/article/us-poland-abortion/polish-parliament-starts-work-on-further-restricting-abortion-idUKKBN1F01IX

theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/11/polish-mps-reject-liberalised-abortion-laws-but-back-new-restrictions
mafketis 24 | 9,374
13 Jan 2018 #1,382
PiS seem determined to get their way

the leadership doesn't care, it's just a useful distraction that can reappear and disappear as needed, rather like reparations from Germany
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
13 Jan 2018 #1,383
PiS seem determined to get their way

As Maf says, it's just PIS messing with people's rights, and trying to obfuscate the bigger picture, which is fooling many Poles and brainwashing them all over again.
Ironside 50 | 10,939
13 Jan 2018 #1,384
PiS seem determined to get their way

It might came as a shock to you but in Poland there is strong drive amongst the population (which might or not support PiS) to tighten as you call it 'abortion' law.

Those protests you talk about can be called mass protests if you compare them to the usual number of attending in those kinds events organized by usual suspect - very few people.

You seem to be confusing UK and Poland. In Poland majority of the populace believes that killing ...an 'abortion' is a bad thing, that majority is divided as to the law. Some believe that the current law is OK. Some say that is not stick enough as killing babies is wrong bar if mothers life is at stake.

PiS is not conspiring or concocting some conspiracy to force people into line but is under a serious pressure from the people, some of them being their voters. They (bosses of the party) wouldn't want to touch the subject at all, because a neo-Marxist idiocy/ideology that rules 'liberal' west will scream like a banshee and they have enough problems as it is.
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
13 Jan 2018 #1,385
It might came as a shock to you

....to look around and see that you are not in fact in Poland, and that normal (not catholic conservative) modern women here certainly do not share your right-wing views that government should be allowed to interfere with their bodies, their rights.
Ironside 50 | 10,939
13 Jan 2018 #1,386
should be allowed to interfere with their bodies, their rights.

Oh save us that neo-Marist clap trap its stupid and boring only an inferior intelligence can buy into that BS.
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
13 Jan 2018 #1,387
An inferior intelligence, in the guise of a government, lords it over its' citizens. What about women's rights in Norway Ironside? Doesn't it make you sick that women are free to live their lives as they wish to do?

Lol. You are a berk:)
mafketis 24 | 9,374
13 Jan 2018 #1,388
As I always say, there's no societal consensus on the moral status of fetuses so laws don't 'solve' anything and serve primarily purposes of moral signalling or preening.

I'm perfectly okay with opponents of abortion not getting them and trying to convince women to not have them. But trying to force them to accept their moral standard is like vegetarians trying to make meat illegal (bad analogy but close enough for government work).
gregy741 4 | 1,204
13 Jan 2018 #1,389
first..project banning abortion of children with down syndrome,its not PIS project but it was brought to parliament by social organizations
secundo...it had 3 times more signatures(about 600k) than the project liberalizing abortion.
third..PIS is actually against changes in abortion law,tho many PIS members support it.
and last....allowing abortion of children with down syndrome is clearly eugenic.i guess ,most evil thing humanity could invent.
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
13 Jan 2018 #1,390
trying to convince women to not have them

"What are you doing this weekend Agnieszka"?
"Anna....me and my partner are devastated to tell you that our baby has been found to be brain dead and I'm having an abortion......"

"Oh, wow! Really!? You're defying the establishment? But are you sure you're doing the right thing morally by God?"
"Go **** yourself you sick medieval weirdo...etc etc etc....."
gregy741 4 | 1,204
13 Jan 2018 #1,391
yourself you sick medieval weirdo

nahh..its was actually in medieval times ,when people genetically or mentally ill were being killed.
in modern and human civilization,society look after sick and disable humans
eugenic is NAZIs invention
mafketis 24 | 9,374
13 Jan 2018 #1,392
I'm perfectly okay with opponents of abortion ... trying to convince women to not have them

"Go **** yourself you sick medieval weirdo

And those who want abortions have every right to be very frank in their answers, of course.
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
13 Jan 2018 #1,393
society look after sick and disable humans

I really don't know Gregy. We can admire the inborn chemistry of women in the developed world who choose to give birth to seriously disabled babies, and mother them, and here that is often a life sentence for many poorer mothers.

In a richer society, say America, the mother gets high tech help and a large insurance payout. I have no idea what happens here. I just watch people struggling - and it's invariably the grandmother left holding the baby - because she is "closer to God."

It's the blatant hypocrisy of these politicians that sticks in the gullet, trumped up clerks who patently do not care for the humanity of the family in question, but only for an unattainable ideal.
Ironside 50 | 10,939
13 Jan 2018 #1,394
An inferior intelligence, i

Yes, yours.

so laws don't 'solve' anything

Majority rules. The thing is commies/progressives are OK with majority rule only if it is their majority.
As to laws not solving anything you're a typical 'champagne' moralist. If murder is not a crime, can I shoot people who deserve it or just any me? That is along with that line of reasoning. Sure they might shoot me first but ....

Laws in European civilization are/were based on the natural law. Catholicism is a philosophical answer to to moral/ethical questions. Those answers allow individuals and nations to grow naturally in accordance with its nature - that is a true freedom.

Individuals can choose between moral and immoral, good and bad. The same goes for nations.
The worst thing is a false flag where immoral bad choices are being sold as freedom... there is not freedom where their is no moral/ethically good choices.

Its a fake freedom.
So maf your arguments sucks because is fundamentally wrong. You might shake your hands with John Calhoun.

Go **** yourself you sick medieval weirdo.

What a lady with class. A really dignified and intelligent person whose opinion count.
Commies on stake!
gregy741 4 | 1,204
13 Jan 2018 #1,395
I really don't know Gregy.

thats why am telling you.

a life sentence for many poorer mothers

financial situation should not be an excuse for murder
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
13 Jan 2018 #1,396
Commies on stake!

My wife and daughter for a start Ironside. Are you calling my family? I hope not youth. :) And millions of others are appalled every time PIS open their mouths and pour out their filth. It doesn't really matter though - it's only a PIS sideshow. The electorate is so dumb that they don't notice the real **** show that is going on here.

You wouldn't know about that of course - because you don't live here, so your opinion is void. You still haven't answered my query about your opinion of Norwegian women and their pro-choice lives.

financial situation should not be an excuse for murder

Of course not. Nobody is being murdered. I don't understand your point.
mafketis 24 | 9,374
13 Jan 2018 #1,397
"What are you doing this weekend Agnieszka"?

"You know how happy I was to be pregnant again? Well, imagine my disappointment! We found out it's a girl! We really wanted another boy.... but I'm gonna go in on Monday and have her scraped out so we can try again."
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
13 Jan 2018 #1,398
Catholicism is a philosophical answer to to moral/ethical questions.

Catholicism is a disaster for any modern state. You can philosophise as much as you want, but at the end of the day, people will always do what is best for them.
gregy741 4 | 1,204
13 Jan 2018 #1,399
beside...i wonder if you guys know anything about this recent bill proposed by liberal org.
few examples:
it penalized people for criticizing abortion.anyone who criticized abortion would be criminally prosecuted.here is one peoposal:
"Prison punishment for preaching about the harmfulness of abortion, or attempting to persuade it not to be carried out and imprisonment for preaching about the harmfulness of contraception."

here is another beauty:
Prohibition of demonstrating objections to the proposed law
libtard madness.no wonder Kaczynski voted for allowing this bill to proceed and for national debate..this bill actually penalized over 60 % of polish society
PIS would use it to show Poles how stupid opposition people are

2
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
13 Jan 2018 #1,400
I'm gonna go

But do you really think so? Maybe in a Scandinavian state? In the UK - nah. Not going to happen. Happy to be corrected. Or not happy if so - sense of proportion here?

libtard madness

Clearly those people are barking too. Unless it is taken out of context?
mafketis 24 | 9,374
13 Jan 2018 #1,401
do you really think so? Maybe in a Scandinavian state? In the UK - nah

What about among immigrant groups where sex-selective abortion is common?

I'm pro choice, but I recognize that that means that some people will make choices that I find to be personally repugnant. It also means some will make choices that they later regret....
Chemikiem 7 | 2,497
13 Jan 2018 #1,402
in Poland there is strong drive amongst the population to tighten as you call it 'abortion' law.

How do you know this? I think for many practising Catholics yes, but times have changed, and many are happy with current legislation and still others want the freedom of choice other countries have.

In Poland there are up to 150,000 illegal abortions performed per year, and this is only likely to increase if this new proposal goes through. All PiS will be accomplishing is endangering womens' lives.

Those mass protests you are scoffing at got the desired result. Two days after they started , and there were 143 protests in cities and towns across Poland, the government withdrew the proposed ban. Now they are trying their luck again, and Poland will be taking centre-stage for all the wrong reasons.

Really, this amounts to an almost total ban on abortion as foetal abnormalities are the majority reason for legal abortions. Last year there were about 1100 abortions performed and of these just over 1040 were the results of foetal deformities.

PiS is not conspiring or concocting some conspiracy to force people into line

I am not completely sure what their game plan is yet, apart from taking Poland back to the dark ages so to speak, but I would argue that a law prohibiting abortion on the grounds of foetal abnormality will indeed force women into line because a choice has been taken away from them. How can you argue with that?
Chemikiem 7 | 2,497
13 Jan 2018 #1,403
in modern and human civilization,society look after sick and disable humans

As it should do, but do you think it's right for women to be forced to have severely disabled children? Sometimes knowing that the outcome will be death or a lifetime of suffering?

This is what KaczyƄski said around the time of the protests in 2016:

" We will strive to ensure that even in pregnancies which are very difficult, when a child is sure to die, strongly deformed, women end up giving birth so that the child can be baptised, buried, and have a name."

If a mother chooses to go ahead with her pregnancy knowing the outcome, then that is her choice, but to force a woman to undergo that is extremely cruel.

No-one should have the right to make that decision.

The worst thing is a false flag where immoral bad choices are being sold as freedom.

Do you not consider it is immoral to force a decision on a woman which will affect the rest of her and her family's life?
cms 9 | 1,271
13 Jan 2018 #1,404
Kaczynski has no family of his own and thus zero empathy for these situations.
gregy741 4 | 1,204
13 Jan 2018 #1,405
As it should do, but do you think it's right for women to be forced to have severely disabled children?

yes.
if they are stupid and degenerated to the point when they want to murder children,then society have right to enforce ban on abortion and put stop to this barbarism

this bill proposed by pro life,was targeting children with DOWN syndrome...sure,those kids have poor life quality but are still humans and can have good life and possible chance of cure in the future.

no to barbaric eugenic of degenerated feminist!
what next? terminating babies with "undesirable eye color" too short?too bald?
gregy741 4 | 1,204
13 Jan 2018 #1,406
Kaczynski has no family of his own and thus zero empathy for these situations.

nowoczesna libtards have no kids with disabilities ,and thus zero empathy for these situations...how bout that?
ppl with disabled kids are always against eugenic abortions,wonder why?
Patryk Jaki have child with down syndrome
cms 9 | 1,271
13 Jan 2018 #1,407
Since you mock "retards" in every post I dont think you are in a position to lecture about empathy for the disabled.
gregy741 4 | 1,204
13 Jan 2018 #1,408
different case.
libtards are morally retarded ,and its their choice. thats why i have no sympathy for them
it is true tho,that there is little intellectual qualities among them as well.so maybe am too harsh on them.i should have more pity
dolnoslask 6 | 3,541
13 Jan 2018 #1,409
morally retarded

And usually brainwashed marxists straight out of the old polytechnics with a faulty moral and historic compass, only a libtards would complain about the use of tard in this context, no one picks on the physically or mentally disabled these days.
Ironside 50 | 10,939
14 Jan 2018 #1,410
Catholicism is a disaster for any modern state

BS.
By the way because you are an old commie and a foreigner who couldn't even ask for directions in a local language if his life would depended on it! It all only after 27 years in the country. So your opinion is justly seen as insignificant and has no value whatsoever.

How do you know this?

Because I make myself well informed on the issues that are of some interest to me. In this way I know that current legislation is connected by some fringe groups or even movement finessed from abroad, whereas there is strong wing of the polish populace that want to tighten current legislation and it is due to their pressure on parliament PiS is put against the wall.

They claim to be a party for Catholics so they cannot ignore or tell to get lost to those people on pain of loosing their consistency. It is pretty simple.

"In Poland there are up to 150,000 illegal abortions" - why not 15 millions? Those numbers are more oft than not made up. After all illegal is illegal. There is no records. Even thought it above is not an argument. People are being murdered, raped, theft is ripe. Should we then abolish those laws that aim at murders, rapist and thieves?

"Poland back to the dark ages" We are living in dark ages right now, the 20th century was just one of the worst in the 2000 years of history. 21st doesn't seems to be going in the right direction either, although there some rays of hope.

"a choice has been taken away from them. How can you argue with that?"
It is simply not true. They cannot kill a baby, but they can give it up to. None can force anyone to take care for such a child.

So, to answer your question - no I don't consider it immoral. I rather question morality or even humanity of those who would kill a child their own flesh and blood out of convenience for themselves. It barbarity.

I bet the some kind of people would be appalled by honor killings - hypocrites.


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