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Abortion still under control in Poland


polonius 54 | 420
11 Oct 2012  #1
The Sejm has rejected out of hand a proposal by the anti-clerical pro-libertine Palikot group to expand the legal murder of the unborn. But the MPs have accepted for further processing a Solidary Poland proposal to ban abortions when there exists a high probability of serious foetus damage.
pgtx 29 | 3,159
11 Oct 2012  #2
In effect, abortion underground will be blooming and women will put their lives in jeopardy.
Shame.
rybnik 18 | 1,462
11 Oct 2012  #3
no one, not even the rcc, has the right to tell anyone, especially women, what they can do to/with their bodies.
On this one I'm with Palikot 100%.
legend 3 | 664
11 Oct 2012  #4
I hope Palikot drowns. What a nasty liberal party.

no one, not even the rcc, has the right to tell anyone, especially women, what they can do to/with their bodies.

This is the kind of attitude thats destroying this world. I MEAN WHO THE HELL CARES ABOUT THE CHILD OH NO ITS A FETUS.
Liberalism is a cancer.
Meathead 5 | 470
11 Oct 2012  #5
What this is really about is the Roman Catholic Church legislating morality. If you think abortion is immoral, don't get an abortion. If you don't think abortion is immoral than women should have access to proper medical care. What will happen of course is that when abortion is made illegal abortions still continue... in basements, attics and back alleys. Strange morality at play here.
rybnik 18 | 1,462
11 Oct 2012  #6
yes
this crap went on here in the States not that long ago.
btw do Poland's neighbors allow abortions?
I think Germany does right?
pgtx 29 | 3,159
11 Oct 2012  #7
Bunch of power hungry politicians and men in black dresses of doubtful morality dictate women what to do with their own bodies.
Let a woman decide. At the end of the day, she will live with her secision, no one else.

Worrying about a baby? How ironic. When men will be able to deliver babies, then they will decide what women should do with their asses.
1jola 14 | 1,879
11 Oct 2012  #8
Bunch of power hungry politicians and men in black dresses

You are no doubt referring to Anna Grodzka from Ruch Palikota. He/She is all of those things.
OP polonius 54 | 420
11 Oct 2012  #9
A women can self-mutilate or do anything else to her own body, as long as it does not effect the health and wellbeing of the innocent baby developing beneath her heart. Life imprisonment is too lenient a penalty for sharks of the abortion industry.
Harry
11 Oct 2012  #10
the innocent baby developing beneath her heart.

Babies are capable of living for themselves, when given all the assistance modern medicine can give. A ball of cells which relies on sucking blood from its host is not a baby.

As for abortion in Poland, there are currently in the region of 150,000 abortions in Poland every year and tens of thousands more where Polish women go abroad to get the medical care denied to them in Poland because of the Catholic church. The only women who have babies that they don't want are poor women who immediately become a drain on the public purse.
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
11 Oct 2012  #11
LOL at the people (mainly men, I presume) wanting to force women through unwanted bodily trauma. These people claim they are in it for the "benefit of the child" and usually think that it somehow benefits the mother in the long term too. This faux Trisha Goddard/Jeremy Kyle impersonation of "Won't SOMEBODY think of likkle baby" needs to stop.

When the pregnancy is completed most unwanted babies will go through their lives in the hell-holes otherwise known as Polish orphanages where this child receives minimal contact,and minimal socialisation, and no love - because its simply not affordable to the state.

If the child doesn't end up in the orphanage it will end up with a mother who neither wants it or loves it (and in fact will probably look on it with some kind of resentment), and a mother complete with brand new mental health issues due to this forced trauma. Statistics also show the child will probably end up living a life of poverty with very little hope, and will also acquire their own psychological issues.

My question to the anti abortion advocates for Poland is (and I truly want this answered) If you give so much of a hoot about the unwanted children's lives in Poland how regularly do you give to charities that provide care for children in Polish orphanages? How often do you physically help struggling mothers with mental health issues?

If, as I suspect, the answer is "never" you can stop being so evangelical about the situation. You have brought suffering to two lives in the world, where there would have been none. You prove by actions how much you care, not by words and your actions prove you are causing more pain in the world than you would like to believe. It also proves that this issue is purely about control!

Shame on the Sejm, really. Have they upped the budget for women dealing with trauma? Have they upped the budget for orphanages? No? Then it's about control and nothing more. Stupid control based on a fairy tale, and forced down our throats by a religion we neither believe or care for.

If I were to ever become preganat whilst I'm living here, I'd be on the 1st flight back to the UK to expel the unwanted parasite feeding off my body. If that's shocking then tough - not unless you'd be willing to maintain my child for life, pay for the birth, and provide me with the years of psychological treatment I'd no doubt need after being forced to go through such a thing - and probably my child's too. "Won't somebody think of the likkle baby"? - indeed!

And for those nutters that still bandy about murder as if it has some kind of meaning in this situation, the word "murder" has a clear definition and is not just subject to what you reckon it means. Just to clear up a common error:

Abortion is not murder.
Manslaughter is not murder.
Death by dangerous driving is not murder.
A sausage roll is not murder.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
11 Oct 2012  #12
It's not necessarily about "benefit of the child". I am anti-abortion first of all because people should be responsible for their actions... not behave like animals. Think before you do something. Making abortion legal is teaching people irresponsibility. Another thing is a border line when a human begins... how do you set it ? After it is born ? Why not several weeks or months earlier ? Why not several weeks or months later ? There is no simple answer and unless somebody propose anything better, It should be treated as a human since the very beginning.

If I were to ever become preganat whilst I'm living here, I'd be on the 1st flight back to the UK to expel the unwanted parasite

Too bad your mom didn't think the same.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,671
11 Oct 2012  #13
it's so easy to talk like that.
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
11 Oct 2012  #14
I am anti-abortion first of all because people should be responsible for their actions... not behave like animals.

Ahh, I see for you it's about punishing women. You've sidestepped paying for these children very well. So now it's "You shouldn't have done it, now suffer the consequences"! You are truly a delight, aren't you?

You do realise that it takes two to start an unwanted pregnancy? What do you suppose the "punishment" be for men who also take part in "behaving like animals"? Shall we cut off their willies? If you're of the "punish the irresponsible" mindset I'm sure you'll approve of this new measure. Should I propose it to the Sejm?

Another thing is a border line when a human begins... how do you set it ? After it is born ? Why not several weeks or months earlier?

I think the ability to survive independently is a pretty good starting point. Either way most abortions happen in the first eight weeks when the foetus is about as big as a raspberry and looks like a tadpole. I doubt it could survive independently or is capable of any kind of thought process.

Too bad your mom didn't think the same.

If she did, I'd have never existed so it would have been no loss to me. According to some theories there are millions of parallel universes where I didn't exist, so you can at least be a little pleased that there's a world somewhere that I don't exist or may have even been aborted! Lucky you Grzegorz!

it's so easy to talk like that.

It's easy to talk like that because it's true.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,671
11 Oct 2012  #15
lol Gabi!! yes spot on!
I wasn't the one talking crap about abortion, I think you will find, so there's no question to sidestep.
I just said it's easy to talk like that,which it is, at a certain stage in life.
no need to be so aggressive.
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
11 Oct 2012  #16
Sorry, I realised that and deleted the offending aggression but you saw it. Damn!

Anyway, the "think of the baby" or "hang 'em high" lot are ones for using emotive language. If they can bandy about such emotive terms as "baby" and "murder", why not add "parasite" into the mix? If anything it just livens up the debate ;)

Either way, I've never wanted children, much to the disappointment of my Mother-in-law. People have been telling me my whole life (since the age of 5 - I knew then) that I'd change my mind. I found that rather offensive. I haven't changed my mind yet.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
11 Oct 2012  #17
If she did, I'd have never existed so it would have been no loss to me.

No loss to humanity either... Initially I didn't notice the "unwanted parasite" part, after that I am not going to discuss anything with a quasi-human like you. Hopefully you will leave us and go to some parallel universe soon, the sooner the better.
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
11 Oct 2012  #18
No loss to humanity either...

Tell that to the homeless people (real living people) I give up my Christmases for. What have you done for anyone lately? Oh that's right. I forgot, you want to emotionally and physically traumatise women (but not men) for making a mistake, or behaving in a way that you judge unfit. You're right. It's me who has no humanity. None, whatsoever.

Re: parasites

A foetus is as much a parasite as it is a baby. Both terms are technically incorrect but equally emotive. Is emotivity only allowed on one side of the divide? Should I stop talking to anybody who calls a foetus a "baby" or a "child"? Are you going to reprimand any of the anti-abortionists for use of such emotive terms?
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,671
11 Oct 2012  #19
GabiDaHun
oh no probs gabi, this lot would get my back up too, that's why I don't really engage with them.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,625
11 Oct 2012  #20
I hope Palikot drowns. What a nasty liberal party.

I'm not sure how you can call anyone "nasty" when you're openly advocating the drowning of someone.

What will happen of course is that when abortion is made illegal abortions still continue... in basements, attics and back alleys.

In Poland, anyone who has money can get an abortion in a proper environment. It's hardly a big secret that many abortions are going on - as long as you've got the money, you can find someone professional who will do it without needing to resort to basements, attics and back alleys.

Anyway, again - I'm with the attitude that it's a decision for women to make.
Harry
11 Oct 2012  #21
I am anti-abortion

So don't have one. Problem solved.
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
11 Oct 2012  #22
oh no probs gabi, this lot would get my back up too, that's why I don't really engage with them.

I know. I hate these kinds of threads.

The reason I think it's my duty to post on these type of threads is that many people come to this site looking for information about Poland. Living here, I don't want these potential visitors to think that all Poles are superstitious hardline nutters, bound by whatever falls out of the church's mouth. We need some kind of balance here. We aren't all afraid of the big woo-woo.
Orpheus - | 114
11 Oct 2012  #23
Thanks for performing the service so that the rest of us evil liberals don't have to have our blood pressure raised by the misogynists.

The comments we can see above, about wishing people dead, or calling you a quasi-human show these people in their true colours. They are the type that rejoice when staff at abortion clinics are murdered.

Take it easy and have a good day.
sobieski 107 | 2,129
11 Oct 2012  #24
And at the same time of course they are against sexual education in school and want to limit the availability of contraceptives...
smurf 39 | 1,982
11 Oct 2012  #25
Could this go to a referendum?

I think this would be the best way to decide it. Let the people decide what they want for their country, not the suited and booted cronies in Warsaw.

I'd vote yes btw.
Abortion is not murder. Murder is a term that can only be used for the killing of a person, a foetus is not a person. It is a life form of course, but it is not a conscious logically thinking life.

If you choose to wrongly believe that a foetus is a person then OK, that's fine with me, you are entitled to your beliefs, but I will not allow you to force your beliefs on me. Keep your beliefs to yourself and if you don't want an abortion don't have one, simple as that. And since you are so Christian, you can pray for the salvation of those who have had to have abortions and the lost souls of those dead foetuses who are lost to an eternity in limbo because they were not baptised and cannot get to paradise........I can't believe there are people out there in the 21st century who still believe such nonsense, but yea, believe what you want. Just don't shove it down my throat.
welshguyinpola 23 | 463
11 Oct 2012  #26
A women can self-mutilate or do anything else to her own body, as long as it does not effect the health and wellbeing of the innocent baby

What about in the case of rape? Should a woman have to look at this child for the rest of her life knowing what it was the result of?? What about if you know your child will be a vegetable? Is it fair to bring this child into the world?

Caholics get off ur moral high ground. You are the most immoral, corrupt business on the Planet. Get your c***s out of choirboys a***s before you start to worry about abortion.
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
11 Oct 2012  #27
What about in the case of rape? Should a woman have to look at this child for the rest of her life knowing what it was the result of??

Don't give them ideas.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
11 Oct 2012  #28
The funniest thing is that when you all, "people" will be close to kicking the bucket, you will be all so little then, so quite and so scared of what is going to happen after... you may scream now but that's all you can do.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,671
11 Oct 2012  #29
well we are all going to die Gzregorz, what's your point?
smurf 39 | 1,982
11 Oct 2012  #30
....so scared of what is going to happen after

Nothing's going to happen, why would you be scared of nothing?

I don't want to die because I don't want to stop living, but we'll all die and that'll be the end.

You close your eyes one last time and the curtain closes one last time.

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