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Abortion still under control in Poland


Varsovian 92 | 634
11 Oct 2012  #31
2 examples:
a. The girl opposite my house got pregnant aged 18, gave birth and lives with her parents. The father did a runner. Now aged 24 she's got a bloke and is planning to get married.

b. I've just been to a "shotgun wedding" - the girl was young, radiant and rotund ... people smiled a little nervously but it happened.

Compare that with the UK's 2 usual options:
(i) the girl goes ahead with the pregnancy, gets emergency accommodation (sharing a building with some unsavoury characters) and social worker support; eventually she gets a council flat. She discovers 18 months on that she can't cope on her own and kid goes into care, life ruined.

(ii) the girls kills the baby.

Life is tough and crises happen. Crises like unwanted pregnancies. But there are always things that can be done. Unmarried mothers always attract comment, but they are not shunned. Poles are not monsters. Perhaps the UK way ahead is actually harder for the woman and child. Killing them with kindness.

And let's face it, having kids is always going to limit you in certain respects. My wife would have done so much better professionally in England and Poland if she'd stayed childless.

Deformed foetuses though - that is a much harder issue to deal with. I have no answers.
pam
11 Oct 2012  #32
I am anti-abortion first of all because people should be responsible for their actions..

And i presume if you have a wife /partner, the contraception method you use is 100% reliable, right?
Fact of life, unwanted pregnancies happen.
Can i presume then, that should the worse case scenario occur, you would expect your partner to have an unwanted child?
What if she were unable to look after it? You would step right in and take over would you? 24/7 care, not a problem, right?
I wonder how many of the men on here screaming abortion is murder, would be willing to bring up a child themselves if they were forced to.

The onus is always on the woman,right?
Me thinks there would be many men running for the hills.........
OP polonius 55 | 422
11 Oct 2012  #33
At the root of the problem is not legal aboritons on demand or underground abortion mills, condm use or non-use, sex ed or its absence, Catholic standards or not... to blame are the shakers, movers, moulders and, yes! exploiters of the permsisive society. Those are the ones who rake in the profits from adverts, music, films, celebrity scandals, MTV and the news media promoting pansexualism, brainwashing youngsters with sexual imagery and connotations roiund-the-clock. Recently parents in Arizona protested agaisnt a sex ed class graphcially demonstrating vaginal, oral and rectal sex to 12 year olds and showing them how to instal a condom. Such technical instruction devoid of an ethical context is one of the reasons for all the problems.

Codes must be enacted to regulate the dissemination of child-harming depravation by all the media including the net.

Sex ed is OK but only if it properly defines the moral and social implicaitons of the marriage act, convincingly stigmatises premarital copullion and shows dying AIDS patients desperately gasping for air or the genital areas of VD patients covered with unsightly rashes and ***** sores -- things that will scare the living daylights out of youngsters and make them think twice.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,724
11 Oct 2012  #34
Compare that with the UK's 2 usual options.

that's so offensive to all the good women who manage their responsibilities alright.
Harry
11 Oct 2012  #35
Those are the ones who rake in the profits from adverts, music, films, celebrity scandals, MTV

So we should shoot all the rock musicians? And we should shoot the parents who brought them up so badly that they became the way they are?

Sex ed is OK but only if it properly defines the moral and social implicaitons of the marriage act, convincingly stigmatises premarital copullion

That is not sex education: that is indoctrination.

things that will scare the living daylights out of youngsters and make them think twice.

Still trying to control people via fear, I see. I seem to remember a bloke named Jesus who said that fear causes pain and torment but I'm sure you've never heard of him and wouldn't like him if you met him.
1jola 14 | 1,880
11 Oct 2012  #36
Perhaps a few photographs of what we are talking about would help us in this "discussion."

Can anyone help?
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,724
11 Oct 2012  #37
it would be quite simple to google it yourself jola if you want to.
Barney 14 | 1,470
11 Oct 2012  #38
There is no simple answer and unless somebody propose anything better, It should be treated as a human since the very beginning.

In a hell of a lot of countries including countries that allow a woman the right to choose it is treated as a separate being in some instances.

There is an offence called child destruction in Britain but it’s a law preventing feticide.

People describing a foetus as a parasite or blood sucker are just unaware of how the law views a foetus and they also demean the mental anguish that women go through if they have opted for a termination.

Caholics get off ur moral high ground

This always comes up in any of these discussions involving British and American people something missing in the debating style of those of the reformed faith from other countries. The assumption being that reformed and other faiths are in favour of unrestricted abortion, at will divorce, gay marriage and so on. This is simply not the case but never miss a chance to unfairly bash the Catholic Church. Next the conspiracy theories about having to bow the knee to Rome and nonsense about two masters and so on.

I personally would never make any concrete statement about abortion except to say that I would rather live in a place that allows it than not. I would be as opposed to abortion being used as a first line contraceptive as I would be to a total ban on it.
Varsovian 92 | 634
11 Oct 2012  #39
Rozumiemnic

No - just the typical experience of my cousin who runs a sexual health clinic in north London and an acquaintance who was a social worker in Croydon. Getting emotional and - oh oh offended - is a neat cop out from confronting unpalatable situations.

Being a single mother is very tough - being a young single mother even more so. Add to the equation the common scenario of very low educational achievement and you have a wonderful recipe for misery. I have a good friend who is a successful, well-educated single mother - but she is an exception and had her child after getting her education.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,724
11 Oct 2012  #40
Please do not patronise me after you have dissed me as a parent on the basis of two acquaintances' experiences and worst case anecdotes from front line jobs..

Yes I find your views offensive, and my response was not 'emotional'. I have noticed that men who don;t like women have their own opinions often label any female response as 'emotional' and therefore invalid.

I now wonder if you are one of those types.
There wouldnt be half so many single mothers if more men stepped up to their responsibilites
1jola 14 | 1,880
11 Oct 2012  #41
Gabi, Look, Blumsztajn stole your sign.



Varsovian 92 | 634
11 Oct 2012  #42
Rozumiemnic

I find your views bizarre. Perhaps you do actually think that young unmarried mothers have a whale of a time and experience no troubles whatsoever and require no help from society. Or perhaps you think that married mothers don't have it tougher than women who don't have kids. Or perhaps you think the vast experience of professionals in the field counts for nothing.

The whole area of abortion rights and wrongs is a minefield. As is young single parenthood - I was brought up in a single parent family by the way. People like to sound off with kneejerk reactions. Like you. I think that abortion on demand, which is the practice (not the law) in the UK has been a disaster resulting in mass abortions on a scale that was never dreamt of back in the 60s. I think personally a blanket ban on abortions is unwise on the grounds of public health - illegal abortions etc - and I think that moral issues are always important in terminating life.
OP polonius 55 | 422
11 Oct 2012  #43
Nobody should be shot, but all depravatory contents shoudl be properly regulated. The pre-permissive society managed quite well and enjoyed majoirity support. Thta is until the counterculture epidemic started gradually spreading its toxins and infecting increasingly wide circles of society. Debauchery should not be the norm.
Harry
11 Oct 2012  #44
Nobody should be shot, but all depravatory contents shoudl be properly regulated.

The only solution is very clearly to execute both the people who make the depraved sounds and the parents who failed so spectacularly in their task of bring up their children properly. But you're right, let's not shoot them: let's beat them to death with their own guitars and then strangle the parents with the strings. Only in that way will everybody be too afraid to ever again make the music which makes people fornicate and people will be so afraid that they will either bring their children up properly or just stone the things to death as the bible demands!

Thta is until the counterculture epidemic started gradually spreading its toxins and infecting increasingly wide circles of society.

Exactly why Poland need to ban guitars in the same way that Poland bans abortion. Won't anybody think of the children?!

Debauchery should not be the norm.

Precisely. When taking industrial quantities of drugs and then having threesomes (or more) with people whose names you don't know become normal, they very rapidly become boring.
OP polonius 55 | 422
11 Oct 2012  #45
Does the sex/pûrn industry pay you to write such stuff? Or do you actually believe debauchery to be the wave of the future that guarantees universal happiness?
Harry
11 Oct 2012  #46
Does the sex/pûrn industry pay you to write such stuff?

Why do you ask? Looking for writing work are you?

Or do you actually believe debauchery to be the wave of the future that guarantees universal happiness?

If you knew any people who were into that kind of thing, you'd know that double protection is absolutely standard.
jon357 64 | 14,382
11 Oct 2012  #47
Perhaps a few photographs of what we are talking about would help us in this "discussion."

I'm sure you could easily find some pictures of hungry, unwanted children. Or women whose chance of a career has been blown due to falling pregnant. Or maybe a coffin of one of the tens of thousands of women who die every year because they try to do a home abortion because they can't sort it out properly in a clinic.
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
11 Oct 2012  #48
There are an infinite number of outcomes to one's life so I don't like this option a) or b) nonsense.

If a girl wants a child, and feels that she has no choice BUT to abort, then it's a terrible shame, and society should have safeguards there to ensure that abortion is not made through a "no other choice" option. However.... neither should we be forcing women to go through pregnancy if she feels that she cant handle it, will suffer mentally, or simply desperately wants not to have a child (there are some women who don't want to have children, take all the precautions, and still end up pregnant).

Forcing a person to do anything is always unsavoury be that forced abortion OR forced pregnancy.

I would be as opposed to abortion being used as a first line contraceptive as I would be to a total ban on it.

This is a line regularly trotted out by the anti-abortion lobby. However there is NO evidence to suggest that abortion is a primary contraceptive in any country where it is legalised. What woman in her right mind would have abortion after abortion just because she can? It's a nonsense, and if these women do exist I'm sure that they don't even reach the 1% mark.
Barney 14 | 1,470
11 Oct 2012  #49
This is a line regularly trotted out by the anti-abortion lobby.

I'm not anti choice by a long shot. I am against those wherever they come from seeking to demean women.
It’s very easy to talk in the abstract at the same time reducing the individual woman's experience to that of having a crap, in fact it’s incredibly insulting.
sobieski 107 | 2,129
11 Oct 2012  #50
Does the sex/pûrn industry pay you to write such stuff? Or do you actually believe debauchery to be the wave of the future

What kind of distorted view of the world do you have? What kind of world you stand for?
One without joy, completely distorted, hard, cruel. cold.
One world comes me to mind. There is a very famous drawing (I cannot locate it/bring it into mind) of the English Civil War. Somebody standing in front of a "jury" of bitter, dour people. And one of the "judges" asks why the guy's relatives were doing in the war. I am sure one of the Brits here can enlighten me. It is a very famous cartoon.

But it completely describes your mentality.
Get a life.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,170
11 Oct 2012  #51
Can i presume then, that should the worse case scenario occur, you would expect your partner to have an unwanted child?

Yes, we both would have to take responsibility for this child. If you feel mature enough to have sex, you must be prepared to take responsibility for the result of it, even if "it" was not planned, let's be honest, many of us were "not planned".

Or women whose chance of a career has been blown due to falling pregnant.

Terrible.

In a hell of a lot of countries including countries that allow a woman the right to choose it is treated as a separate being in some instances.

Sure, If one beats up a pregnant woman and in result, she loses a child, there are totally different charges than If one kicked a guy, who then falls down and get a few bruises.

BTW I should live long enough to see large parts of western Europe controlled by Muslims. Breivik is totally wrong, you people became so pathetic that it actually will be an improvement, hopefully there will be not enough teching English jobs in "Eastern Europe" to accomodate too many of you here.
pawian 153 | 8,355
11 Oct 2012  #52
I would accept any decision of my wife after she has learnt about damaged feotes. Be it abortion or keeping the baby, I have nothing to say on the matter. It is women`s belly and final decision.
dtaylor5632 18 | 2,007
11 Oct 2012  #53
Grzegorz_
Poor you Greg, if not then I wouldn't have came all those years ago!

pawian
You may not have anything to say on the matter, but if the woman is of a decent kind then she would take in the impact it would have on you if she aborted.
OP polonius 55 | 422
12 Oct 2012  #54
Imagine what a horrible world it would be if more people tired to be decent, honest, truthful and altruistic?. Wouldn't it be horrible to be able to leave your kid's bike on the porch overnight and still find it there the next day? Imagine all those costly closed-circuit cameras (which we consumers and taxpayers have to bankroll throuhg the nose) weren't needed because shoplifting and other misdeeds were only a peripheral problem. Wouldn't it be horrible to be able to send your 12-year-old got women pregant and then took a powder occurred only very rarely? Wouldn't it be horrible if more families made an effoft to solve their problems through compromise rather than always wanting to come out on top? Wouldn't it be horrible if there were no messy custody battles and parental abductions?

Idealistic and impossible? Maybe so, but only because our standards have fallen so low. Becuase people aren't trying to be decent. Because they have fallen prey to the 'anyhting goes' propaganda churned out by our cheap and and trashy commercial pop culture. And beacuase people like you have swallowed that propaganda hook, line and sinker and actually equate debauchery and loose living with the 'good life'.
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
12 Oct 2012  #55
What has this got to do with men in suits in the Sejm forcing some women through bodily trauma, yet doing nothing to help with the aftermath?

Wouldn't it be nice if we didn't punish people for making mistakes? Wouldn't it be nice if compassion and freedom was legislated? Wouldn't it be nice if people with control issues didn't want to dictate to everyone their own black and white version of morality, and just, you know, got on with taking the bits of log out of their own eyes?
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,170
12 Oct 2012  #56
Wouldn't it be nice if compassion and freedom was legislated?

How is it legislated in your country ?
Harry
12 Oct 2012  #57
Imagine what a horrible world it would be if more people tired to be decent, honest, truthful and altruistic?

Have you tried to be those things? Your words here very strong suggest that you do not try to be them.

Wouldn't it be horrible to be able to send your 12-year-old got women pregant and then took a powder occurred only very rarely?

It might be helpful if you read your posts before you post them, that way we may get less of the utter gibberish that I've just quoted.
smurf 39 | 1,983
12 Oct 2012  #58
Wouldn't it be horrible to be able to send your 12-year-old got women pregant and then took a powder occurred only very rarely?

I'll see your gibberish and raise you:
“Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?”
OP polonius 55 | 422
12 Oct 2012  #59
Sorry for the gibberish. Yes, haste makes waste! It should have been more or less like this:
Wouldn't it be horrible to be able to send your 12-year-old daughter to summer camp and know that she would not be molested by a counsellor. Wouldn't it be horrible if there were fewer sperm-spewing foot-loose daddies getting women pregnant and then taking a powder...

Once again, my profuse apologies for the fractured paragraph!
smurf 39 | 1,983
12 Oct 2012  #60
Wouldn't it be horrible to be able to send your 12-year-old daughter to summer camp and know that she would not be molested

no, it wouldn't.

Wouldn't it be horrible if there were fewer sperm-spewing foot-loose daddies getting women pregnant and then taking a powder...

powder? What ya talkin about? Cocaine? Talcum powder?

sperm-spewing

sperm coming out of their mouths? Nasty. You should get that seen too.

foot-loose

Being a good dancer attracts the opposite sex.

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