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Abortion still under control in Poland


Chemikiem 5 | 1,596
21 Jan 2018  #1,471
I don't have statistic on hand but reliability of those prenatal examinations is very low.

I agree in that sometimes against the odds, a baby can turn out to be ok, or less disabled than is first thought, but I would say that is the exception rather than the rule. Scans these days are very accurate and a doctor can make a pretty good prediction based on scans as to what foetal abnormailities are present.

Is not for you to decide,

It's not the governments decision either, I really think they should leave things as they are now. 95% of legal abortions performed in Poland in 2016 were due to foetal abnormalities, so changing the law will prevent abortion in the majority of cases.

it appears it is easier to kill such a child than to deal with emotional consequences of bringing to this world of a disabled or suffering child.

I wouldn't underestimate those emotional consequences if I were you. Good parents would look at the whole picture. From cradle to grave. A child born with severe disabilities may live a normal life span. Who will look after the adult once the parents are gone? Have you considered that? I know a couple in this very position. Their child is now an adult, wheelchair bound, unable to communicate, and brain damaged. All they worry about is what will happen to him when they are gone. I admire them both tremendously, because there is no way that I could bring up a child like that as they have. That was their choice, but I don't believe that mothers should be forced into this position.

I stand for what I believe is right. For a live and for a fair chance for everyone. How that can be selfish?

Because i don't believe that is a fair chance for everyone. I think it's anything but fair, both for the child enduring a lifetime of suffering and for the parents. I understand your stance on this as you feel as strongly as I do, but I stand for what i believe is right too.
johnny reb 16 | 3,470
21 Jan 2018  #1,472
And there's not a thing you can do to stop any woman from terminating her pregnancy.

No argument there however we sure don't have to promote it as being justifiable now do we.
Maybe twenty years in prison like any other murder would get some attention to stop it.
Bieganski 17 | 906
21 Jan 2018  #1,473
How about the innocent helpless during the Holocaust ?

Leftists don't care; they always have double standards.

And funny that you should mention the Holocaust in this thread.

Last year one such "survivor" died in France where after the war she led a campaign to legalize abortion.

French Holocaust survivor and pro-abortion campaigner Simone Veil dies at 89

A Jewish survivor of the Nazi death camps...she was best known...for legalizing abortion when she was health minister in 1974.

"May her example inspire our fellow countrymen, who will find in her the best of France," President Emmanuel Macron said.

reuters.com/article/us-people-veil/french-holocaust-survivor-and-pro-abortion-campaigner-simone-veil-dies-at-89-idUSKBN19L11Q

So there you have it. How many millions of French babies were aborted since 1974 while she lived a full comfortable life?

And the result today of her being "the best of France"?

Demands for unfettered immigration from the low IQ war-torn third world to make up for the low birth rates.

Millions if not billions spent on carrying out abortions over the decades for inconvenient pregnancies. And now billions upon billions being spent on hauling in aliens to help fill the demographic void.

You can't make this stuff up.
jon357 64 | 14,382
21 Jan 2018  #1,474
justifiable

Neither justifiable nor unjustifiable. That's just the way it is.

twenty years in prison

Never going to happen in Poland, and wouldn't stop a woman driving a hundred miles to do it in Germany.
johnny reb 16 | 3,470
21 Jan 2018  #1,475
Then comes Judgment Day when every knee shall bow.
"Thou shall not kill" might be a tuff one to explain.
But then again, for an Unbeliever all of that is inconvenient too.
jon357 64 | 14,382
21 Jan 2018  #1,476
"Thou shall not kill" might be a tuff one to explain.

Especially for those who promote judicial murder...

for an Unbeliever all of that is inconvenient too.

If it turns out that Mohammed was right, very inconvenient indeed.
johnny reb 16 | 3,470
21 Jan 2018  #1,477
judicial murder...

Except judicial murder is for the guilty and abortion is murder of the innocent

Mohammed was right

In what, murdering innocent "infidels" ?
Back on topic jon.
jon357 64 | 14,382
21 Jan 2018  #1,478
abortion is murder

In your opinion.

In what,

Wait and see...
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,224
22 Jan 2018  #1,479
Idk why pis keeps pushing this topic... its not helping their female base and it def didnt work well for them literally like a year ago

Sheeeet if i knocked some chick up id be praying shes on the next train to czechy or germany. Ppl need to get over it its not rly a big deal. Civilizations have exercised forms of abortion, birth control hell even eugenics for millenia and still do today. Maybe one day we wonr need abortions for retarded kids thanks to gene sequencing and gene therapy.
mafketis 17 | 6,902
22 Jan 2018  #1,480
why pis keeps pushing this topic

Any political party has different constituents and they can't pander to them all at the same time. Bringing up and dropping abortion is a way of pandering to the hardcore religious conservative catholic minority in Poland. I'm sure they'd love to drop it but there is a large group of people who will sign petitions that mean the government has to look at it from now until doomsday.

They even tried to throw the opposition a bone and discuss liberalizing the laws but the opposition is so hopeless now they couldn't be bothered to vote for it... useless losers.
Ironside 47 | 9,574
22 Jan 2018  #1,481
Scans these days are very accurate and a doctor can make a pretty good prediction based on scans

Well, pretty good in a case of life and dead doesn't really cut it.

95% of legal abortions performed in Poland in 2016 were due to foetal abnormalities,

Well, about 90% of those are about 'termination' of children with a Down syndrome and I think you will agree such a child doesn't fall into the category of deformation we are talking about. What more Down syndrome can be recognized rather late during pregnancy, in sixth or seventh month into it. That is truly appalling that such children are being killed legally.

I wouldn't underestimate those emotional consequences if I were you.

I don't. Think is people nowadays, especially atheist are prone to dazzled with a false believe that they control what will happen to them or to other people. Our control is very limited and we should be just content doing the right thing and hope for the best rather than worry about things we have no control over.

I guess those ageing parents are not regretting they haven't kill their kid.
Also mothers - as I'm repeating it time and time again and you seems to ignore it - won't be forced to rise such a child if that what they would choose. So you concern yourself with no issue. To give up a child it is a very really simple (technically) act of legally recorded will.

"Because i don't believe that is a fair chance for everyone."
Well, we can agree to disagree. As we do almost every time when we talk in here :)
or you could elaborate on the 'why' you disagree with me.
Because I don't quite get it. Either way it was a pleasure to debate with you. As always.:)
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,224
22 Jan 2018  #1,482
Bringing up and dropping abortion is a way of pandering to the hardcore religious conservative catholic minority in Poland

Yeah that's true - especially in the eastern parts, rural areas and among the very religious older population. Maybe it's a way to show that while they are willing to work with and negotiate with the more liberal EU, they'll still hold on to their conservative Christian principles. I bet most of them don't even really care about abortion all that much one way or another but just use it as a political tool. Maybe they wanted to simply rile up the very traditional Catholic element in their support base. Still though, I think it pushes aside more moderate people on the right in PL. Either way though, their support is now even higher. As of December, PiS is at 44% (estimates range from 40-44% for PiS and 15-17% for PO followed by Nowoczesna and Kukiz with 5-6% each)

now they couldn't be bothered to vote for it... useless losers.

That's happened more than once.... They ask for debates, votes, etc yet oftentimes they don't even show up. That won't stop them from going to foreign owned media outlets and using their spin doctors to lambast PiS
Chemikiem 5 | 1,596
23 Jan 2018  #1,483
What more Down syndrome can be recognized rather late during pregnancy, in sixth or seventh month

Not any more, at least not in the UK. Pregnant mothers are offered screening at 10 - 14 weeks. This involves a blood test and a scan. Further tests are done if the results show a high risk of a Down's syndrome baby.

I agree that Down's syndrome babies should not be categorized as severely disabled , but I still feel that the parents should make the decision as to whether to go ahead with the pregnancy. As I mentioned before, my step-daughter has Downs and she is a well loved adult now, but her mother has said that had she been given the choice, she would not have chosen to have a baby with this condition.

I find what KaczyƄski said to be quite chilling:

"Nowadays there are around 1.000 legal abortions in Poland: most of them are for reason of Down syndrome. We hope it won't be the case anymore. This is our aim. But we should prepare it. We need to convince the society and particularly women, and we are going to do it." said Mr Kaczynski.''

I'm repeating it time and time again and you seems to ignore it - won't be forced to rise such a child

You seem to be ignoring what I am saying. If this law is passed to all intents and purposes you may as well put a gun to their heads. The government will succeed only in forcing mothers into more underground illegal abortions. Or putting women through the trauma of a full term pregnancy to give the child up. No woman should have to go through that. I seriously wonder how these politicians would feel if they had to bring up and look after a disabled child, but let's face it, should their wives find themselves in that position, unlike the average Polish woman, they can afford to whisk themselves off to Germany or Czech for a little 'holiday'.

you could elaborate on the 'why' you disagree with me.

Because you are not taking account of the suffering that will ensue both for the child and the family.
But hej! We were born to disagree with each other ;) Nice to debate with you too Iron :)
Rich Mazur 5 | 3,334
2 Apr 2019  #1,484
[moved from]

It is a mega irony how the leftists are for abortion and immigration at the same time - the latter because "we don't have enough people". Yeah, a-holes, if you kill them while inside, they will not go to work in your factories twenty years later. Duh!

If that was not enough, the leftists and the Marxist pope tell us that we should protect the environment by burning less and, at the same time, to build bridges so that the poor scum from poor sh**holes can come to the US and Europe to enjoy our prosperity and burn just as much fossil fuels as we do.

Leftists' mental brilliance on full display.

Just as the Nazis didn't like communists as a totalitarian competition, I am not surprised that the priests who are in business of promoting scary fiction don't like a competitor selling scary fiction.
Dougpol1 27 | 2,675
2 Apr 2019  #1,485
the leftists are for abortion

Is anybody ever "for" abortion? Let's ask the women. It's their bodies, and their choice. Unless you live in medieval times, that is.
Rich Mazur 5 | 3,334
2 Apr 2019  #1,486
That's an easy one to dispose of.

Yes, it's their bodies and they can do what they want with them.

No, we, the rest of the society, but for the phony Roe v. Wade, do not have to license doctors to perform abortions just the same as we don't license doctors to perform many other procedures, or use unapproved drugs, on the willing patients.

Would you like some examples of unapproved medical procedures doctors are not allowed to perform on the sane and willing patients? Just ask.

See how effortless that was?
jon357 64 | 14,382
3 Apr 2019  #1,487
It's their bodies, and their choice

Exactly.

Roe v. Wade,

Nothing 'phony' and irrelevant to Poland or any other country except the one whose courts made that ruling.
Spike31 2 | 904
3 Apr 2019  #1,488
Why don't we be honest about the abortion? Pro-abortion "pro-choice" activists are often hiding behind some phoney excuses while in most cases their motivation is simple:

We want to be able to kill defenceless human beings because it is easier than controlling our sexual lust. And we want to have sex without consequences. As simple as that.

Like Robert Gwiazdowski, lawyer and an economist, said: "woman had a choice when she spread her legs" :-)
jon357 64 | 14,382
3 Apr 2019  #1,489
And if someone else 'spread her legs' against her will? Or if the foetus isn't viable, should she have to carry it to term? Or if her own health is at risk>

defenceless human beings

Non-sentient clusters of cells.
Spike31 2 | 904
3 Apr 2019  #1,490
*Just to be clear by most cases I mean those excluding rape or life-threatening situation (because it is so easy to predict what the main line of defence will be in this case :-)
jon357 64 | 14,382
3 Apr 2019  #1,491
So in certain circumstances you're fine with killing:

defenceless human beings

Not that a cluster of cells with no consciousness is a 'being'.
Rich Mazur 5 | 3,334
3 Apr 2019  #1,492
And if someone else 'spread her legs' against her will? Or if the foetus isn't viable, >

We can deal with the extremes later. In the meantime, abortion is pure evil and the psychological as well as the physiological consequences to women are never discussed and seen as anti women and a war on them. Fake euphemism like fetus will never change what is inside the woman's body - it's a baby.

Did you ever - I mean ever - hear a pregnant woman say, "My fetus just kicked!" Never did, never will. That fetus is nothing else but an attempt to dehumanize that baby.

If you disagree, try to answer this question: On the day of the natural and normal delivery, when does that fetus become a baby?

Not that a cluster of cells with no consciousness is a 'being'.

You should try harder. "Consciousness" does not determine anything. There are adults in the state of induced comma and on life support. You kill them, you are going down for premeditated murder. You kill a pregnant woman and it's murder - twice. Any ideas why?

Just curious. When are asleep, how is your "consciousness"?
Spike31 2 | 904
3 Apr 2019  #1,493
So in certain circumstances you're fine with killing:

I simply illustrated what's the current legal situation regarding abortion in Poland is. And it is allowed when the pregnancy is a result of rape or in case of life-threatening situation for a mother.

Abortion-on-demand, on the other hand, looks more or less like this:

"Look honey, we had some fun the other night and now you're pregnant. We have to kill that baby because, when born, it may decrease our standard of living"

Non-sentient clusters of cells.

Nah, I still think that you're more than that but there's some room for improvement :-)
jon357 64 | 14,382
3 Apr 2019  #1,494
I simply illustrated what's the current legal situation regarding abortion in Poland is

Basically hypocrisy.

In reality terminations are very easy to arrange in PL.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,725
3 Apr 2019  #1,495
allowed when the pregnancy is a result of rape or in case of life-threatening situation for a mother.

the thing is here, you see, that 'life threatening situation' is wide open to individual interpretation, by different doctors. Like in the UK.
Ironside 47 | 9,574
3 Apr 2019  #1,496
It's their bodies, and their choice.

Excuse me? What do you mean. Children in their womb are not a part of their bodies, they biologically different.

If you making an argument that women can do whatever they want with an unborn child just because it is located inside their body? Congrats you just made a pro-slavery argument i.e. an owner of the land can make whatever he wants to do with people within borders of his property.

Non-sentient clusters of cells.

Who is gonna decide what non-sentient or what not. By my estimation about half posters here do not quality as sentient beings and technically you are cluster of cells too.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,725
3 Apr 2019  #1,497
I think abortion should only be allowed up to when the heart starts beating, which by all accounts is 6 weeks.
All these right on lefty men shouting in favour of abortion have no idea what it really means.
Rich Mazur 5 | 3,334
3 Apr 2019  #1,498
Children in their womb are not a part of their bodies, they biologically different.

Good point. "Her body" has the same DNA - every single part of her body. The kid inside does not. End of the debate about "her body".

If you making an argument that women can do whatever they want with an unborn child

Let's stipulate that a woman can do to herself what she wants. That does not automatically mean that we must provide the means, such as licensed physicians, to do it for her or to her.

Just as the state has no legal obligation to assist a healthy person to commit suicide because life is boring.
Spike31 2 | 904
3 Apr 2019  #1,499
the thing is here, you see, that 'life threatening situation' is wide open to individual interpretation, by different doctors. Like in the UK.

It sure is.

I've recently read an interesting story about Emilia Wojtyla, a mother of a future Pope John Paul II. When she was pregnant with him, she was advised by a doctor to have an abortion because "neither her or her child would not survive a childbirth".

She have decided to take that risk and have a child. She didn't die and gave birth to a healthy boy.
Rich Mazur 5 | 3,334
14 May 2019  #1,500
moved from

And this has what to do with the Catholic Church welcoming Planned Parenthood baby killers and their pro-abortion political protectors?

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