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Abortion still under control in Poland

Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
8 Apr 2016 #961
anti - abortionists are men

Not all! You may not run elbows or interact with such women, in fact your posts indicate you probably don't, but there are many devout Catholic and other-Chrisitian women firmly opposed to abortion and active in the Pro-Life movement. You may be interested to know there is even a Pro-Life feminist movment. Pro-life feminists believe abortion has served to hurt women more than it has benefited them.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,849
8 Apr 2016 #962
but there are many devout Catholic and other-Chrisitian women firmly opposed to abortion and active in the Pro-Life movement.

'my posts indicate that I dont' LOL. It might interest you to know that I attend a Catholic service weekly. Just saying.
I know there are some brainwashed female hardliners, but they are a minority. Most of them don't even seem that well tbh.

Anyway my point was mostly about this forum - look who is on each 'side' of the debate.

Your posts mostly seem to be drunken projections of your own sick fantasies. btw.
terri 1 | 1,664
8 Apr 2016 #963
Whether abortion will be allowed (under any circumstances) is up to the Prezes, Jaroslaw Kaczynski - no one else. So there is no point in discussing it any further. If he says NO - then it will be NO - that's it.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,849
8 Apr 2016 #964
really ? does executive decision making lie in the hands of only one person? no 'checks and balances? I find that hard to believe.
mafketis 34 | 12,213
8 Apr 2016 #965
Why do you think they've junked the consitution? PiS _hates_ the very idea of checks and balances.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
8 Apr 2016 #967
It is just a matter of stopping with hypocrisy! Best to abort in a hospital rather than at home with the use of coat hangers, soap, knitting needles and the like. Only brainwashed people cannot understand this. Abortions are as old as the world is and always will be so why being hypocrit about it and pretending nothing happens?

Rich women will always have access to medically assisted abortions thanks to their money + contact and the other women (the most numerous in any society) will keep butchering themselves in countries such as Poland. In order to stop being hypocrit and to discriminate against poorer women, legalizing abortion is of course the only answer.

How many of you guys in this thread personally know about abortion? I mean, for boys/men, how many girls/women do you personally know who had to go through an abortion? I suppose almost no one so once more, stop talking about what you know nothing about (a speciality in these fora ;)). Do you guys imagine how desperate a woman can be when she introduces objects into her body? I am sure that most of you cannot...

Unfortunately most Polish women won't go down to the streets tomorrow since unfortunalty most Polish women accept the "status quo" (= "it is like this, so ..... tak jest") and some Polish women will fight against abortion because the Church told them "abortion is wrong"...

Nobody forces anybody to abort so don't deny basic rights to others!

Like French philosopher Voltaire said "I don't share your opinion but I will fight so you can express it"....
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
8 Apr 2016 #968
Whether abortion will be allowed

The PiS good-change government are definitely not planning any change to the current abortion law. Duda, Szydło adn Kaczyński have said they personally oppose abortion, but as the president has wisely pointed out: he has to take into account the views of different groups. So it's really pointless to debate a dead-letter issue.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,849
8 Apr 2016 #969
That is right - abortion is not going to go away if it is banned - it would just be driven underground, into the hands of back street abortionists, and back to the days of DIY abortions. The women who would suffer most, as InPolska pointed out, would be the poorest women in society, as a rich woman could afford a flight and private abortion.

It would appear to be a truly woman - hating set-up.

Abortion is certainly not a 'dead letter issue'.
Atch 17 | 4,043
8 Apr 2016 #970
coat hangers, soap, knitting needles and the like.

Isn't it more likely that they're done illegally by midwives or obstetric nurses?? Not saying that people don't try DIY abortions but there's a long tradition in the British Isles of nurses doing abortions privately so why not in Poland. Obviously these services come at a price but it's cheaper than going abroad. Also many 'working class' Polish families have at least one nurse in the extended family.Just to clarify, I'm not saying it's right. Obviously it's not, just saying that I don't know if that many people are going down the knitting needle route.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
8 Apr 2016 #971
of course, forbidding something does not make it to disappear ;). Having an abortion is not "easy" so best to make it legal. Nobody will force anyone to have an abortion but if a woman has to go through the ordeal, she will be able to have one in the best condition and with the proper psycholigical help (she won't be treated as a criminal but as a woman in a very difficult situation who needs support).

Sure, it will hurt the poor since the rich will keep paying private doctors in Poland or go abroad (even in nearby Czech Republic, it is not cheap). In Poland, a private doctor demands a few thousands of ZL (the guy risks prison so he won't do it for free) and for most women (especially when alone and from underprivileged classes, it is a lot of money and they don't have it). Going abroad costs a lot that only the very rich can envisage.

Anyway, keeping things illegal (abortion, drugs, prostitution, .....) just make things worse! When things are made legal, they become clear and are controlled and the whole society benefits from it. But, let's keep doing like in the "old times" and like in backwards countries and let's pretend everything is ok ;). In the same idea, I remember having watched a meeting in an American society between the then President of Iran with American students, during which said Iranian answered an American student that "in Iran there are no homosexuals and therefore no problem with homosexuality" ;). Polish authorities and (all) religions act same way: they don't want to acknowledge problem so there is NO problem to deal with.

A lot of Polish women (since we are in Poland) will continue butchering themselves but "who" cares? Those "s...ts" (I am using their way of talking) got what they deserve. Didn't Trump himself say a couple of weeks ago that women who abort should be .... punished (.....)! Welcome to the Middle-Ages!

Poor women!
Atch 17 | 4,043
8 Apr 2016 #972
But, let's keep doing like in the "old times" and like in backwards countries and let's pretend everything is ok ;).

The problem is that it's difficult to force societal change through legislation if it doesn't have popular support. You can't co-erce people into being liberal any more than Fascists or Commies managed to truly convert the masses to their philosophy. Trying to force change before a society is ready for it never works. That's why I feel the government should put the matter before the people. But that will never happen. To jest Polska.....
InPolska 11 | 1,821
8 Apr 2016 #973
Absolutely, Atch! Although I have witnessed a lot of changes (for the better ;)) within Polish society over the years, they still represent a tiny % of society and at least for a very long time, Poland will remain a closed and conservative society. Societies like Spain and Portugal have progressed a lot and have become most liberal (especially Spain) in the past 25-30 years when they became democratic so everything can change but in case of Poland (for instance), it'll take a longer time ;)....
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
8 Apr 2016 #974
dead-letter issue.

In the agenda of the current PiS government it is a non-issue or dead-letter issue. It was a grass-roots group that started the campaign and the pro-abortionist mob used it as a pretext to attack the governemnt. They're always on the look-out for such pretexts.
cms 9 | 1,255
8 Apr 2016 #975
Nonsense - it was supported last week by the prime minister in a radio interview, was said by Jaroslaw to have a high chance of success and is apparently supported by the majority of PiS deputies despite it wisely being nowhere near their election manifesto.

Of course there are no more important issues to talk about in Poland - I mean its not like the currency has crashed or we need to to build some roads.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
8 Apr 2016 #976
high chance of success

But PiS have wisely said that even if it should ever come up for a vote, MPs will be free to vote according to their conscience.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
9 Apr 2016 #977
@Pol: do you really believe that a SINGLE PiS MP will vote against such a proposal? ;). Anyway, demos everywhere in Poland not only in Warsaw.
terri 1 | 1,664
9 Apr 2016 #978
All those MPs who raise their hands voting against the party line will be thrown out of the party. There will not be a 'free secret vote'.

The only conscience the PiS MPs have is the one directed by their Prezes (their Chief).That is all. No other option is permissible.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
9 Apr 2016 #979
For sure! ;). Anyway, the show starts at 2 pm ("Polish" time) so getting ready to go ;)

Well, was there for a while! Of course, there were not ... millions of people but it is good when people react.... There were women, men, of all age groups although a majority of very young girls (18-20...) since obviously the main concerned about problem. Although it seems to have been organized by Razem, there were quite a few people from KOD. I suppose people supporting KOD are mostly liberal so they can relate to pro-abortion movements....

Basically for me: "hospital: yes", "coat hanger: no"!
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
9 Apr 2016 #980
organized by Razem

Seems the femi-fascists are on the march today, insulting the Church and ranting and raving "My uterus belongs to me". YOU CAN HAVE IT!

Next time it'll be the "save the four-toed Podlasian frog" brigade, then the "legalise
glue-sniffing" gang... And some say there is no democracy in Poland. Every whacko and loon is free to picket, rally and promote the most outrageous of causes.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
9 Apr 2016 #981
come on, Pol! As to Razem, as they have brilliant leaderS, I'm sure they'll be in Sejm next time. There were also ... rainbow flags. I know, I was there for a while, as they had a stand by the side of the Canadian Embassy and in front of French Embassy.

And yes, a woman's uterus belongs to her, not to a state, to a religion or to anybody else.
Sparks11 - | 335
9 Apr 2016 #982
Terrible the way women's rights are compared to glue-sniffers and frog-savers. Just proves the limited mentality of these ass-hats.
Ironside 51 | 11,338
9 Apr 2016 #984
The problem is that if one doesn't have a legal option for abortion, they will have to try other means

So, if you cannot afford a nice car they will try robbery or whatnot? Yes, they do have a problem.

However, having a child and keeping it or not is a decision that does affect a person through their entire life.

Pretty much like having a cat. Although if you have a person in your life that affect your life and you don't like it you wouldn't just casually kill that person dead, or would you?

Also, many women in Poland are not educated on abortion

In this time and place if someone is not educated about something then it is his/her own damn fault.

It's very much an argument

Well, the answer to that would be of course - don't take chances if you are not prepared to face the consequences. Who wants a nanny sate and a big brother watching over your shoulder? Not somebody I would respect.

that the risk to women's lives from the home-done abortions

They live and die by the choices they have made. How many criminal die due to their criminal activity? - should those activities be decriminalized to save lives of few goons?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
9 Apr 2016 #985
But PiS have wisely said that even if it should ever come up for a vote, MPs will be free to vote according to their conscience.

Not so much wisely as understanding that if 50-100 PiS MP's simply don't show up to vote, then it will fail and they've got an out.

Kaczyński seems to have badly misjudged the mood of the electorate and possibly his own party, as quite a few people from PiS have made it clear that they don't support a change in the law.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
9 Apr 2016 #986
abortion i

The pro-abortion activists are doing women a disservice by concealing the full implications of such a decision. They make it sound like it's like having a tooth extracted (to paraphrase: "My tooth belongs to me!") and nothing more. In actuality, there are many possible physical side-effects of terminating a pregnancy including sterility and even more emotional and psychological risks of having an abortion. These include:

Sense of loneliness or isolation
Loss of self confidence
Insomnia or nightmares
Relationship issues
Suicidal thoughts and feelings
Eating disorders
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
9 Apr 2016 #987
They make it sound like it's like having a tooth extracted (to paraphrase: "My tooth belongs to me!") and nothing more.

No-one thinks that. The vast majority of pro-choice supporters believe firmly that there should be comprehensive support services available to women before and after an abortion.
Ironside 51 | 11,338
9 Apr 2016 #988
As regards Poland it's a great shame that they don't seem to believe in referendums here.

A very good point Atch. I think that such a chance should be decided in referendum in ten years time.

In Europe, only Poland, Ireland and tiny places such as Malta, Andorra, San Marino ... are still denying basic rights to women

Yes, typical fallacy not an argument.

the ONLY person who will DECIDE

You are a sick in the head person whose every post contain a lie.BS.

in societies such as Poland (and other religious countries), people do not receive sex education so they don't know much about sex

Bollocks. Sex education in schools had been there for decades.

Or am I stating the bleeding obvious?

No you are playing on stereotypes and I'm sure you would be first to pretest if stereotypes you dislike were used against what you argue for. If you are talking about PF then I must add that PF doesn't reflect a real life realities or Am I stating the obvious?

It is just a matter of stopping with hypocrisy!

No, is anything but ... as you frequently miss the point being a girl that is a one brick short of the full load you have no chance in hell to grasp what it is all about.

Terrible the way women's rights

A what? Mr No-sparks contracting again. What exactly are those women's rights?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
9 Apr 2016 #989
vast majority

The vast majority of pro-abortion agitators do not warn young girls of the potential consequences. It's mainly all about "abortion rights" not abortion fall-out, depression, guilt and the like. It's all about how many they can get into the streets, how many placards are waved and the news coverage generated to show their abortion-industry sponsors they're doing their job and should be suitably rewarded.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
9 Apr 2016 #990
of course, there is a "before" and an "after" "service". A woman considering abortion has to meet psychologists and doctors so she can understand what is it about. Further to the 1 or several (depending on cases) meetings with psychologists and doctors, the woman is given time to think it over and when she feels ready, she aborts. She may of course change her mind and decide not to abort. Obviously after abortion, more psychological help as needed. This is so in western countries.

Deciding to have an abortion is not like making an appointment to have a hair cut the following day.

Since obviously NO ONE can stop abortions, best to have them done in hospitals by competent professionals! An abortion being a medical act, it cannot be performed at home while using coat hangers, soap, knitting needles or the like. I cannot even imagine a woman introducing objects into her body and risking her life ... We are not in the Middle-Ages or in Afghanistan!

@Ironside: Wrong, no sex education classes in Poland! I know that in the West, they even show kids how to put condoms on. I seriously doubt that they do that in Polish schools ;). Also, they don't teach about contraception. The no.1 contraception in Poland is ... temperature (like they used to do in Western Europe till 1950)

@Pol: how do you think a girl aborting in her bathroom or kitchen using a coat hanger may feel? Do you think that if she does not kill herself, she'll feel great? Would it not be better and to have her abort in a hospital's comfort with professionals?

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