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Abortion still under control in Poland

Ironside 51 | 11,339
4 Apr 2016 #931
Science has nothing to do with it. You should know that.
AdrianK9 6 | 368
4 Apr 2016 #932

Actually, it does have a valid point. It's easy for a well heeled politicians to make judgments on others. If one of their daughters got knocked up, I'm sure they'd send her abroad for a quick procedure rather than have voter's find out about that a politician's unmarried daughter had an illegitimate child.

This law won't matter to the wealthiest individuals who can afford to go to Germany, Czech Republic, etc. It affects the women who cannot - which is the poor who do not have money to pay for a plan or train ticket to another country plus the medical costs.

This really is more an of an issue for PiS than the church - every Catholic knows the church's official stance on abortion... but for PiS to take such a radical approach is going to hurt their party - not so much the church.

What about the Nazi's that raped Polish women? Would you allow those women to get abortions? What about my dying grandma who, upon her own request, got a shot of morphine so she could fall asleep and go peacefully - is that murder too? I'd argue that's more 'moral' than having her suffer even longer.

principles and rules of the society often trumps/limit personal preferences of individuals

Kind of sounds like something Stalin or Mao would say. Ever heard of free speech, freedom of religion, freedom of press, right to pursue happiness? Religion or lack there of is a private matter.

Beata Szydlo - But she also made clear that this is her "personal opinion and not necessarily that of all members" of her conservative ruling Law and Justice party. Szydło said that if the bill is taken up by parliament, she will not insist that all party members vote in favour of the proposed anti-abortion legislation. "Each of us will be guided by our own conscience."

She is allowing her own personal views and beliefs to be made law affecting everyone even if they have a different belief - that's not right.

What if impregnated your daughter or your wife? Would you still not allow them to get an abortion? Would you rather raise it as your own or send it to an orphanage where it has an abysmally low chance of being adopted (estimated 80k orphans, a hundred a year or so at best are adopted - only 35 in 2012 according to the US Dept of State)?

If the Catholic Church never killed anyone, never tortured anyone, never sent children to fight their wars, never molested a child, never massacred other religions, and most of all never hid their own sins and was open and honest with them, then perhaps I'd listen to them a bit more as a moral authority.
smurf 39 | 1,981
5 Apr 2016 #933
PiS logic

I think the only way for Arkadiusz Czartoryski (MP) to understand the issue fully he should volunteer to be raped (I'm aware that it's not actually rape if you volunteer) or maybe he should volunteer one of his female relatives to be raped, they must also become pregnant though, so it might take more than once. I'm pretty sure that would wipe that creepy smirk off his pig-ugly face.,Polish-MP-What-difference-is-there-if-a-child-is-conceived-through-rape
cms 9 | 1,255
5 Apr 2016 #934
Possibly this issue is doing some good - PiS won heavy support from 20-30 year olds, mainly by deliberately being deceptive about who would run the country. This episode will reveal PiS for what they are - fanatics in thrall to church cash. Last week Szydlo stated she opposed all abortion, yesterday she said that was her personal view and that it did not matter. Her code for "I should have asked Jaroslaw before opening my mouth", and she is supposed to be the cuddly face of PiS.

On this thread there is not one woman defending the PiS stance and I'm unsure how many of the PolAm guys, who so vehemently support the idea of women bearing their rapists kids, are fathers themselves.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
5 Apr 2016 #935
even believe that a cluster of cells

And then there are pro-perversionists who believe an organ designed to excrete fecal matter should be used for................ (uggh, too disgusting to even metnion!)
mafketis 34 | 11,872
5 Apr 2016 #936
(uggh, too disgusting to even metnion!)

Then why did you bring it up (apropos of nothing)? Fascinated much?

If fertilized eggs are human then spontaneous abortion is the biggest killer in history and it needs to be the focus of most medical research.
smurf 39 | 1,981
5 Apr 2016 #937
Polish women are trolling Beata Szydlo awesomely on her Facebook & Twitter with the #TrudnyOkres (heavy period) :D :D :D

PiS never learnt the valuable lesson: Never, ever, f!ck with Polish women
mafketis 34 | 11,872
5 Apr 2016 #938
I'm unsure how many of the PolAm guys, who so vehemently support the idea of women bearing their rapists kids, are fathers themselves.

Yes, why are they so eager for rapists to successfully reproduce? Most of the time I think aborting the result of rape is by far the better more ethical decision.

But then the RC has never understood the idea of genes. For hundreds of years they gathered together the smartest and most learned of men.... and forbade them from reproducing. Not very sensible.
jon357 71 | 20,365
5 Apr 2016 #939
And then there are pro-perversionists who believe an organ designed to excrete fecal matter should be used for......

You really do seem to have have no redeeming features whatsoever, except for being old and therefore unable to spout your filth for much longer. Comments like that come across as being from a particularly vile individual.

The only good thing is that any sane person reading your posts would be so repelled by them that they would immediately believe the opposite.

Looks like the women of Poland are having a go at that Szydlo person on social media. A hashtag is currently trending that translates as #HeavyPeriod

The Polki won't just sit back and let them get away with this one. Wrongfooted again...
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
5 Apr 2016 #940
The Polki won't just sit back and let them get away with this one. Wrongfooted again...

Absolutely. She's backtracking furiously now, suggesting that the law won't even be read in the Sejm (despite what PiS previously said about PO ignoring citizen initiatives) because she sees exactly how furious women are.
AdrianK9 6 | 368
5 Apr 2016 #941
A couple of people that get off to 2 girls 1 cup videos don't represent even a small fraction of most polish people, or humans for that matter... There are pederasty groups in the US too but I highly doubt the age of consent is going to get lowered because of these groups. The vast majority of people find that kind of stuff disgusting. I don't see how a sexual perversion correlates to abortion.

Thank goodness. PiS is pushing the envelope too far, too quickly, and too soon. Even though most Poles identify as Roman Catholic, we don't want a theocracy. I like their economic plans and wishes to help families, but their social views are a bit skewed on what most Poles expect in their country. Let's not forget that under Communism the abortion laws were more lax than they are now.

It was nice to see Polish women walking out of church - big message to the church and PiS. I understand them 100%. I remember when I moved to Florida I found a Polish Parish and would go just about every Sunday. Literally almost every like little sermon towards the end of the mass before the final blessing would be some pro life, abortion hating message. It really got old after a few weeks. There are much more important things than people deciding what a woman they never met should do or not do.
5 Apr 2016 #942
Who are they going to alienate next?

From the looks of it they are planning to alienate a 100,000+ of their core supporters who have signed / will sign the petition for a ban on abortions but now won't even get their bill read. Even by the standards of the PIS lovers, managing to alienate both sides in a debate and attracting significant international attention is a masterstroke on a par with banging the nails into one's own coffin whilst digging one's own grave.
Ironside 51 | 11,339
5 Apr 2016 #943
but are you really suggesting that science has nothing to do with the medical profession's point of view?

I'm saying that science doesn't provide 100% correct and accurate answer for everything. If you know anything about science you know that. In this case there is a certain margin for an error and such a gap is enough to dictate caution to these who believe that human life is sacred.

In fact what is contested here are not scientific facts but the different sets of believes.

It certainly has nothing to do with the religious anti-woman point of view

Nonsense, if anything the religious point of view in this case give an apple opportunity to women to full realize they nature and their potential. Rather then succumb to the utilitarian hedonistic prejudice.

Who is anti-women then? Those who are pushing women to belie they nature, who want to curb and trim their nature to fit their narrow ideological perspective . Who aim to transduce moral sentiments of women into base and retrogressive forms that retard their proper development?

You are pointing your finger in the wrong direction.

Perhaps you've never heard of the Spanish Inquisition

Oh don't come up with this propaganda leaflets that have been long ago exposed for what they are.

[..] tell other people how to act in a moral way.

That is the purpose of the Church, sorry you missed that by a mile. To be a signpost for others. Doesn't need to be spotless to preform its function.

My first thought when I had a 'scare' in the past was abortion or RU-48 as a solution - I was 18,

Should have keep your .... in check. Boys and girls should learn there are consequences. This is not an argument.

both parties responsibly decided they weren't ready to have children and the children would have a much better and much more stable future if they waited.

Blah blah, typical excuses of those who wants to have a cake and eat it at the same time - boohoo!

Who decides if the legislator's conscience is the same as the peoples' - or even if it's right or not?

Reality on the ground.

As for the rest of you fear mongering crowd that post those pathetic posts above predicting PiS's doom and making much of nothing.
I don't think that that new legislation will become law. In fact I'm pretty certain naught will came of it. Same as with PO attempted to change the current law other way to suit their paymasters in Germany, they failed. PiS will fail as well.

to understand the issue fully he should volunteer to be raped

That the lamest of them all. Come on make an effort and think up or steal some proper argument. Maybe you should be aborted in the late stage of your embryonic life as you are now to comprehend what you are talking about?:D
smurf 39 | 1,981
5 Apr 2016 #944
Maybe you should be aborted in the late stage of your embryonic life as you are now to comprehend what you are talking about?:D

You're such a charming human being.
I dearly hope and pray to your god that you are hit by a large bus today :)
God bless you

Maybe you should be aborted in the late stage of your embryonic life as you are now to comprehend what you are talking about

Imagine that your mother was raped
Imagine that your sister is raped
Imagine that your female cousins are raped
Imagine your grandmothers were raped
Imagine your aunties were raped.

Then come back to me and tell me how you feel about abortion.
jon357 71 | 20,365
5 Apr 2016 #945
Imagine you were put through a paper-shredder.

Given that a cluster of cells has no central nervous system or brain it would hardly care.

So he's a cluster of cells without a brain or central nervous system is he? I know that some of the more conservative posters here manage to post under those circumstances, however I doubt that applies to Smurf.

With these crazy abortion proposals (and Poland already has some of the most restrictive abortion laws in Europe leading thousands of women to go abroad or do it in Poland illegally) it looks like PiS has managed to upset both the anti-abortionists who want it and the women of Poland who don't.
jon357 71 | 20,365
6 Apr 2016 #946
so he is

Re. the cluster of cells, looks like the Mods deleted the comment we were both replying to.

With the abortion debate, it isn't in any sense about the ethics of abortion. Abortions are available discreetly in Poland despite the current legal restrictions, they are even more available a short hop away on Ryanair, and theyve always been available if you have Pennyroyal tea or a knitting needle.

The issue is twofold. Whether religious and other groups have the right to impose their views and mostly, that the government seems to thing that legal abortion is unacceptable while knowing full well that women are being injured or killed by home-made ones.
Ironside 51 | 11,339
6 Apr 2016 #947
With the abortion debate, it isn't in any sense about the ethics of abortion

It is for me. I'm not talking about legislation because it is relatively simple matter to resolve. It is up for Sejm to sort it out.

Whether religious and other groups have the right to impose their views

Well, they what democracy supposed to be about - majority impose their views on others. The crux of the matter is how far legislation can go to impose and regulate moral/ethical rules on all and what should be left to individuals which would allowed them to make their own choices.

I think that the current regulation is well balanced in this regard. There are other ways that need and could be addressed to minimalize percentage of women undergoing abortions - informative action is a one of many avenues a wise government could explore.

I think that both bishops and especially PiS top echelons haven't exercised here what I call a good old prudence and wisdom while dealing with complex issues.

Anyway we'll see what gonna happen.

government seems to thing that legal abortion is unacceptable while knowing full well that women are being injured or killed by home-made ones.

That is not an argument at all. It is as if you argue that prohibition is a bad thing because more people will be dirking alcohol from shady sources and more of them will die as a result. They make their own choices and know or should know risks involved. If they rather drink ...well.

Or people speeding and dying regardless of speed limit - are speed limits to blame?
AdrianK9 6 | 368
6 Apr 2016 #948
They make their own choices and know or should know risks involved

The problem is that if one doesn't have a legal option for abortion, they will have to try other means and see what they can and can't afford. If a woman cannot afford to travel abroad to have an abortion, she will have to go the dangerous route. It's not that they don't know it's dangerous - it's that they oftentimes don't have another option or may not have been educated on this topic. Drinking alcohol is a leisurely activity - it's not going to matter much in the grand scheme or your life if you get drunk one weekend or not. However, having a child and keeping it or not is a decision that does affect a person through their entire life.

Also, many women in Poland are not educated on abortion as this is something that isn't discussed very much. You can't even have an abortion in Poland if you're unable to raise a child or a condom accidentally ripped during sex and you got pregnant. There aren't exactly lots of pamphlets available on these topics in health centers, family planning facilities, or gynecologists like there is in the US where a woman can obtain good non-biased scientific information. All a woman in Poland can really do is ask friends or read about the risks online - where of course she's going to run into a ton of biased sources. Perhaps if she is very poor and desperate and cannot afford to travel or afford a sympathetic doctor, she may willingly decide to do the abortion herself.
Ironside 51 | 11,339
6 Apr 2016 #949
what I call a good old prudence and wisdom while dealing with complex issues.

I take it back. It is so called citizen initiative - meaning it was no less that 100 000 people that asked parliament to vote over this law.
jon357 71 | 20,365
7 Apr 2016 #950
That is not an argument at all.

It's very much an argument, and yes, the same goes for prohibition of alcohol and other intoxicants. One very major reason American prohibition ws repealed was due to those self same "shady sources" that they allude to.

I would say very strongly, that the risk to women's lives from the home-done abortions that happen anyway is a good enough argument on its own for it to be available on demand. Plus of course all the other compelling arguments.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
8 Apr 2016 #951
Tomorrow, more demonstrations in Warsaw and most probably in other big cities in Poland. As a woman and as a democrat, I'll be there. Since abortions have been around since the beginning of the human race and will last for ever, I prefer to have women abort in secured medical structures rather than having them to do it themselves while using coat hangers or soap.....

In Europe, only Poland, Ireland and tiny places such as Malta, Andorra, San Marino ... are still denying basic rights to women!

PS: how many (moreover unwed ;) nuns do abort? ;). Let's stop hypocrisy!
Atch 17 | 4,086
8 Apr 2016 #952

The crucial difference though is that in Ireland it's the people who decide, not the government. The people must be consulted as it requires a change to the constitution and no changes can be made to the Irish consitution without the consent of the people. That's how divorce was introduced, that's how same sex marriage was introduced. That's how abortion will be introduced. There have been three referendums on the issue since 1982 and a fourth is imminent. It's only a matter of time before we see wider availabilty of abortion in Ireland. Abortions have already been performed in Ireland where a mother's life was at risk due to physiological reasons, the only situation where abortion is currently permitted.

However there was a very high profile case in 2011 where a pregnant woman died in a Galway hospital. It seems that an abortion wouldn't necessarily have saved her (it seems that it was other medical negligence that caused her death) but the fact that her husband requested one and was denied it was a major issue. He claimed that he was told 'this is a Catholic country'. They were Indian and not Christian. The public was very upset about her death and like the beating to death of a gay man 30 years ago, this I believe will be a turning point in public opinion. It will definitely affect the next referendum but I think it will be some time yet before people are comfortable with the idea of abortion on demand. But just as we've gone from homophobia to same sex marriage by the will of people, so other changes will come about by the will of the people.

As regards Poland it's a great shame that they don't seem to believe in referendums here. Allow the Polish people to decide, that's my view. That's how democracy works. If a majority are against abortion so be it for now, present the issue again every five years and if it's what the people want it will happen.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
8 Apr 2016 #953
Atch: In 2016 to have women aborting themselves with coat hangers, soap, knitting needles and the like is criminal and also hypocrit. When something goes wrong and the woman has to be taken to hospital, doctors have to report the case to police and woman faces (up to 5 years in prison) (I know it from high level Polish politicians, I don't rely on YouTube bs like a lot of members(Levy, Mafketis and the sort ...) here ;)).

This is pure hypocrisy as abortions cannot be forbidden: rich women will go abroad or at home will seek private doctor's help and the poor will do it themselves with all the risks.

Also a big problem, in societies such as Poland (and other religious countries), people do not receive sex education so they don't know much about sex.

Here again, the problem is ... (any) religion (= intolerance, ignorance and lack of basic rights)
terri 1 | 1,664
8 Apr 2016 #954
People may not know 'much about sex' but they know how to make babies.
There is a Catholic based assumption in Poland that if you don't talk about it (sex) then no one EVER does it. Sex is such a TABOO subject that if you mention it to anyone (e.g. we're now having more sex in order to get pregnant), you are the DEVIL.
Atch 17 | 4,086
8 Apr 2016 #956
Wouldn't agree that people don't talk about sex in Poland. They often talk about it in quite graphic terms, a bit shocking really. Even Mr Atch is stunned, after being in Ireland for ten years, to hear the way his colleagues talk in the office. You would never, never hear men and women discussing sexual positions over lunch in an Irish office! These are not the sausage eating, vodka swilling members of Polish society but the 'educated', 20s, 30s, 40s. The caretaker in our building asked Mr Atch what 'the ass is like' in the office and he's over sixty.......they're all the same.
kondzior 12 | 1,221
8 Apr 2016 #957
All those considerations are besides the point, because the argument is not whether there are situations in which the possibility to abort a child may be admissible, but whether there is anything "wrong" with abortion in the first place. Those two are completely different problems, for it is possible for abortion to be admissible in certain conditions without necessarily cease to consider it an evil. Much like it is admissible to murder someone (say, in self defense) without necessarily claim that there's nothing wrong in killing people.

And this distinction comes into play whenever lefists go from arguing that sometimes it may be necessary to terminate a pregnancy to claiming that a fetus is not a human being, or that women have a "right" to dispense of their child as they see fit, since they have a right to do as they please with their "bodies", as if a child is not a separate entity from the mother.
jon357 71 | 20,365
8 Apr 2016 #958
as if a child

And of course as if a cluster of cells with no brain or neural network were a child.
kondzior 12 | 1,221
8 Apr 2016 #959
Its just a stage in the life cycle of an individual human creature. Much like a baby is. Do you think that babies are less "human" than full grown adults, or that to kill a baby is less of a crime? An adult dog probably has better cognitive skills than a week old baby. Does it mean it would be "less" of a crime to kill a baby than it would be to kill the dog?
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,846
8 Apr 2016 #960
Sex is such a TABOO subject that if you mention it to anyone (e.g. we're now having more sex in order to get pregnant), you are the DEVIL

lol my English kids had to explain where babies came from to their Polish cousin when he was about ten. He knew that his mum and dad did something in bed together, but as his mum had told him that you 'get babies by praying', he had not connected the arrival of his sister with the bed thing....

Has anyone else noticed that all the hardline anti - abortionists are men....when it is invariably the woman that gets left holding the baby? Or am I stating the bleeding obvious?

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