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Poland and USA vs Iran and the EU


pawian 159 | 9,510
13 Feb 2019  #1
A Middle East security conference is being held in Warsaw, Poland. Many issues are going to be discussed but the main topic is Iran.

apnews.com/2a371c165c1144f58342d4cbb4c0ea67

And, on his way to Warsaw and before he made the comment about the "common interest of war," Netanyahu made clear the conference is centered on Iran."It is a conference that unites the United States, Israel, many countries in the world, many countries in the region, Arab countries, against Iran's aggressive policy, its aggression, its desire to conquer the Middle East and destroy Israel," he told reporters.

The situation is a bit complicated. The USA put sanctions on Iran, while the EU doesn`t support them. PiS government has decided to go with the USA . Iran has already critisized Poland for being an American puppet and suggested the whole event is a circus. Nobody knows what are the real objectives of the conference.

I am in two minds about the event, just like many Polish commentators who suggest that Poland is needlessly putting its fingers between the anvil and hammer - we won`t gain much or even anything because the USA treat Poland instrumentally, but we can lose good relations with Iran and further worsen relations with the EU.
Jaskier
13 Feb 2019  #2
I would rather like to look at these things in moral categories but that's too idealistic...
If I have to be pragmatic I would go with EU as we have more ties with them .
OP pawian 159 | 9,510
13 Feb 2019  #3
What is even more interesting, Americans themselves can`t reach agreement over Iran case. Former US President`s circles suggest that Trump administration is making a mistake with Iran and the conference is useless or even contradictory to American interests.

"If at the end of the day it looks like America is being isolated from its partners, then it's not as successful as you want it to be. Time and again, this administration had found itself drunk on its own Kool-Aid, isolated from our friends, and belatedly forced to scramble to save face," Price said, adding that not a single country in the EU endorsed Trump's pullout from the Iran nuclear deal.."
OP pawian 159 | 9,510
13 Feb 2019  #4
If I have to be pragmatic I would go with EU as we have more ties with them .

Yes, that`s what I thought too. Trump is playing PiS government against the EU and they happily fall for that. Utter amateurs in politics and complete ignorants in history. One day they will again whine that Europeans don`t want to die for Danzig, but it will be too late.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
13 Feb 2019  #5
Nobody knows what are the real objectives of the conference.

The conspiracy theorists are suggesting that the real intention is to present a bill to Poland for property restitution. In essence, an ultimatum will be given - pay the Jews and the USA will build a permanent security base here. Don't pay them, and no base.

For me, it seems rather as if it's about the USA taking advantage of Polish stupidity and historical ignorance.
OP pawian 159 | 9,510
13 Feb 2019  #6
The conspiracy theorists are suggesting that the real intention is to present a bill to Poland for property restitution.

:) Does it mean Jews control Trump? :)

the USA taking advantage of Polish stupidity and historical ignorance.

Here, I would rather point to PiS government than all Poland. :) I can be mistaken but I don`t remember previous governments to fawn on US so much.
cms neuf - | 906
14 Feb 2019  #7
Why did they have this nonsense in Warsaw - shut down half the town for no reason. Couldnt they do it at some forest or mountain place ?
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,190
14 Feb 2019  #8
Why did they have this nonsense in Warsaw

How about Nigeria?
cms neuf - | 906
14 Feb 2019  #9
I meant why not have it in a forest or a mountain spa ? Or even how about Israel ? Or somewhere else in the Middle East. That would make more sense. Would also be cheaper for the Israeli taxpayer - there must have been a few hundred penpushers, soldiers and security men in my hotel.
johnny reb 17 | 3,646
14 Feb 2019  #10
Damn.......that is half the countries in the world.
msn.com/en-us/news/world/pence-europe-must-withdraw-from-iran-nuclear-deal/ar-BBTzG7l?li=BBnb7Kz
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,190
14 Feb 2019  #11
The authoritarian regime in Tehran represses the freedom of speech and assembly, persecutes religious minorities, brutalizes women

....but we can make a couple of bucks, so what's the problem, said the Euros.
johnny reb 17 | 3,646
14 Feb 2019  #12
I think they call it "Allegiance to NATO".
The E.U. wants their cake, ice cream and eat it too.
Milk both ends at America's expense.
cms neuf - | 906
14 Feb 2019  #13
But they signed up to this at the instigation if the US govt. now that some other moron is in office they have to unsigned ? And what happens if the next guy wants them to re-enter the agreement.

Trump is the self proclaimed best deal maker in the world but this is an other example of how rubbish he is.
WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
14 Feb 2019  #14
In essence, an ultimatum will be given - pay the Jews and the USA will build a permanent security base here. Don't pay them, and no base.

Funny that, isn't it, since Poland is offering to pay the USA for the permanent base anyway. So the ultimatum is 'pay the Jews, then you can pay for the US to have a permanent base here'. Great deal.

I get why Poland want to keep good relations with America, but they have no beef with Iran and hosting this was a bad move.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,190
14 Feb 2019  #15
Trump is the self proclaimed best deal maker in the world but this is an other example of how rubbish he is.

Memo to Trump:
Next time, call me and I will tell you how not to f*** up the way you did with that last deal with South Korea. My 12-year-old granddaughter is smarter than that.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
14 Feb 2019  #16
Funny that, isn't it, since Poland is offering to pay the USA for the permanent base anyway. So the ultimatum

Stuff like this just turns people against NATO. It looks like a totally one sided and unfair deal, and even from my liberal perspective, it's strange that they chose such a forum to very publicly demand property restitution. For what it's worth, I'm 100% against property restitution in all cases.

but they have no beef with Iran and hosting this was a bad move.

I don't understand it as well. Iran never did a thing to Poland, and all this does is make Poland into a new target. If it had been a genuine conference, I could understand it, but it appears to have been nothing other than America turning up and making demands.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,190
14 Feb 2019  #17
PiS government has decided to go with the USA

PiS is right.
Playing neutrality games with a country - that would be the US - Poland expects to go to blows with Russia over Poland would be a really stupid idea. Iran is nothing to Poland, good or bad. This is not the time to overthink (przefajnic?) things. Political sophistry gets you only so far.
OP pawian 159 | 9,510
14 Feb 2019  #18
Breaking news from today

Well, actually, the conference didn`t attract intensive coverage in world`s agencies. Hardly anybody was interested.

Mike Pence declared Iran as the main threat in the region and strongly attacked Western European countries for their stance on Iran.
theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/14/us-and-israel-say-confrontation-with-iran-needed-for-peace

An American journalist suggested that Polish Jews fought against German and Polish regimes in Ghetto Rising 1943.
pap.pl/en/news/news%2C404819%2Cpolish-embassy-usa-reacts-journalists-words-ghetto-uprising.html

Polish mainstream off-state media still critisize the idea, compare it to events organised in communist Poland under Soviet guidance etc.
wyborcza.pl/7,75399,24458763,konferencja-bliskowschodnia-jak-kongres-obroncow-pokoju-we-wroclawiu.html#nowaZajawkaGlownaMT#S.DT-K.C-P.1-B.2-L.2.maly

Most readers` comments are positive towards Iran, a country which has never had a conflict with Poland; let me quote one of them:

ateistazkrakowa 14.02.2019, 12:51
@jerjar
Dear Iranian Friends,
we knew that you think about STRONG ANSWER.
Our country is not against you.

wyborcza.pl/7,75399,24456704,wielki-atak-samobojczy-w-iranie-w-zwiazku-z-warszawska-konferencja.html

That`s all.

The authoritarian regime in Tehran represses the freedom of speech and assembly, persecutes religious minorities, brutalizes women

Funny you are repeating such arguments. After all, the USA is in a strategic alliance with Saudi Arabia where the human rights are abused more cruelly than in Iran. So, for the USA, it is simply a matter of "nasty guys must be OUR guys", that`s enough.

If that`s the case, Europe can decide about its partnerships as it wishes. Sorry, double standard approach is just not fair.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,190
14 Feb 2019  #19
Funny you are repeating such arguments.

Sorry that I didn't make it more obvious. Those were not my arguments. I was just mocking the arguments coming from the indignant and the offended civil rights activists, on one hand, and how quickly the WE greed turns a blind eye to those lofty arguments when money is on the table, on the other.

It was pure sarcasm on my part. I should do less of it, I guess.
OP pawian 159 | 9,510
14 Feb 2019  #20
and how quickly the WE greed turns a blind eye to those lofty arguments when money is on the table, on the other.

I don`t understand why you are explaining it all. :)

Yes, you were negative about the WE/EU and that was obvious. That is why I mentioned the USA-Saudi Arabian alliance in which Saudis are rogue guys made good because they are "American."

The conclusion was: let the EU decide who is a good rogue guy for them.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,190
14 Feb 2019  #21
For future use, my position is: if it's good for the US, then, I am for it. Beyond that, I don't give a rat's ass. Poland included.

If the US needs Saudis and they deliver, Saudis are the good guys and the Saudi critics can go to hell.
I can't make it any clearer.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,463
15 Feb 2019  #22
It's a shame how Poland is treating Iran right now...
Ironside 48 | 9,707
15 Feb 2019  #23
Well, that is a damn disgrace. Poland's gov should tell Pompeo to take a hike and announce that there is no war plotting on the Polish soil by the foreign powers against third party will be condition by the government of the Republic of Poland.

Should assure Iran's government that Poland would never assist ANY foreign power (being an ally or not) in an aggression against Iran.

he EU doesn`t support them.

How much many France and the first economy of the EU i.e. Germany are willing to put on the table to build workable EU military forces? Would be France willing to share their nuclear weaponry know with Poland?

If not that it means that the EU is not a serous alternative to the USA and NATO and their claims are just meaningless and empty.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
15 Feb 2019  #24
Poland's gov should tell Pompeo to take a hike

A long hike, preferably.

I haven't found a single person who supports paying these organisations a thing. It appears to be one big racket - these groups get huge amounts of cash, and very little of it actually gets spent on Jewish people. I found quite a few references in the Israeli media how the money isn't finding its way to Israel, but into the pockets of the people behind it.

Should assure Iran's government that Poland would never assist ANY foreign power (being an ally or not) in an aggression against Iran.

I just cannot understand this. When did Iran do anything but be nice to Poland?
cms neuf - | 906
15 Feb 2019  #25
But even America does not share its nuclear know how with Poland - probably wise move given the amount of Russian influence in the MON at the moment.
Ironside 48 | 9,707
15 Feb 2019  #26
. It appears to be one big racket -

well, it is. They know their lobbying well.

Thing is Poland's gov and institutions that supped to deal with nonsense such like that are just powerless and clueless. I'm actually embarrassed for them what a pack of inept losers. Seems that even Soviet collaborators have/had better grasp of things and governance than those wusses.

I just cannot understand this.

Well, that is that damn lackey mentality again, they are talking it in the ass and pretend to like it. Geez, maybe they actually like it. I'm not going to pretend that I understand what they are thinking if at all. I just get a gist of it.

But even America does not share its nuclear know how with Poland

America has other means to ensure Poland's security. The EU has none. To take them seriously they need to put money or nukes where their mouth is.
OP pawian 159 | 9,510
15 Feb 2019  #27
Would be France willing to share their nuclear weaponry know with Poland?

But even America does not share its nuclear know how with Poland -

Guys, what do you mean by sharing nuclear stuff with Poland? Nuclear countries don`t share it with anybody. Besides, to my best knowledge, Poland has signed the non-proliferation treaty.

If you mean locating rockets in Poland, that wouldn`t be the wisest thing to do .
Ironside 48 | 9,707
16 Feb 2019  #28
Poland has signed the non-proliferation treaty.

Who cares? To get its own nukes would be the best policy for Poland.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,190
16 Feb 2019  #29
That will take a lot of zlotys.
Here is an idea: start charging more for sh***ing and pi****ing. That 2.60zl per visit will not buy you much of a nuke. Maybe 10k. The problem is that the Russian hand grenades are more destructive.
OP pawian 159 | 9,510
16 Feb 2019  #30
Who cares? To get its own nukes would be the best policy for Poland.

You know it is daydreaming. Get serious. You haven`t changed much over the years... :)


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