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Abortion still under control in Poland


delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
3 Apr 2016 #901
Oh? How were they dressed? Middle class or dirt poor?

You've just proved that you know little to nothing about Poland beyond what you've read on the internet, because even poor people in Poland will dress nicely in public.

Do you really think that women undergo abortions lightly?

He thinks that someone having an abortion after rape is doing it for financial reasons. That's all we need to know about his mentality :)
Harry
3 Apr 2016 #902
You come across as having a very low opinion of women full stop tbh.

I'm sure they have a very similar opinion of him; and looking at his posts shows part of the reason for that.
Bieganski 17 | 901
3 Apr 2016 #903
You make it sound like it's something that women fit in between shopping and a trip to the dentist.

Being British I'm not surprised at all that you are completely uniformed about the casual efficiency of abortion.

Here is the title of an article published in a British newspaper almost 20 years ago:

Abortion: The right to choose an abortion - in your lunch break

"When Marie Stopes launched a "lunch-time abortion" service in June this year, it was hailed by some as a medical - and even shocking - breakthrough. It is certainly popular: since June, 2,000 women have paid for this quickie procedure in one of seven specialist day-care centres around the country."

Source: independent.co.uk/life-style/abortion-the-right-to-choose-an-abortion-in-your-lunch-break-1235979.html

And of course such things only get better over time (well, except British dentistry).

You've just proved that you know little to nothing about Poland beyond what you've read on the internet

Au contraire! You just proved that despite claiming to live in Poland you still can't pick up on social distinctions in how people dress in Poland. LOL!
jon357 66 | 17,040
3 Apr 2016 #904
Bieggers, tell us about your

social distinctions in how people dress in Poland

This should be quite amusing.
And how this relates to the current regimes attempts to damage women's rights over their own bodies.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
3 Apr 2016 #905
"men" (who think that they are standing up for traditional Polish values or whatever ) trying to tell women what to do with their bodies

I doubt many of the anti-abortion men think that way and If they do, they are totally wrong... as we both know, in Poland, in case of unwanted pregnancy the guy will likely end up being obliged to pay significant share of his income as a child support for years and he's got nothing to say here... while a woman can "deliver" a baby and go for adoption without any consequences... so much for lack of abortion at will as some kind of tool to "control" women by men. Actually, it's women that sometimes use pregnancy to "catch" men into a "trap", not the other way around.

Advertising abortion at will as a matter of "freedom" or "personal choice" is as stupid as doing the same with taking cocaine... come one, it's my body, I can do with it what I want and so on. Abortion at will shouldn't be a form of birth control just like robbery shouldn't be a form of social security... and showing some middle class women screaming "freedom" has as much to do with the whole issue of abortion as the image of "gays" as some cool, happy celebrities presented by far left/Hollywood etc. has to do with reality of homos - often some ruined dudes with AIDS that became "gay" because their uncles were getting into their beds when they were kids.
Bieganski 17 | 901
3 Apr 2016 #906
And how this relates to the current regimes attempts to damage women's rights over their own bodies.

Apart from being an emotional tampon for women why would an out-and-proud, self-declared homosexual like yourself concern yourself at all with this so-called "women's rights over their own bodies" issue?

Are you saying a man (as in a real man; as in heterosexual) who gets a woman pregnant during consensual sex should have no rights and no say whatsoever in whether his child should live or die? Yes, that is exactly what you are saying. And since you stand no personal chance of getting a woman pregnant you have no skin in the game (literally). Therefore your opinion does not count.

So you are not fooling anyone. By attempting to take sides in this so-called "women's rights" issue you are foolishly hoping it will win you allies later on when you start begging for same sex marriage. But you need to wake up and face reality because no straight woman in Poland wants her heterosexual relationship or marriage compared to and regarded as equal to that of a homosexual one.
Ironside 50 | 10,939
3 Apr 2016 #907
Perhaps because the number of maternal deaths occurring could no longer be ignored?

Perhaps, perhaps not, although I wouldn't use MATERNAL to describe such a cases.

but those women must have been desperate

That is an excuse that is used so often to disrobe criminals from responsibility for their deeds.

Presumably the government at the time thought that it wasn't going to stop and at least if abortion were decriminalized

Magical thinking? I presume that there were some other issues at play and argumentation put forth had been but a screen.

You might be right, but at least women were given the option to have abortions safely instead of risking their live

Still, deaths are occurring due to abortions or maternity. I don't see it as a huge improvement, after all more oft than not those unwanted pregnancies have been a question of choice. You make your choices you live and die by them.
cms 9 | 1,271
4 Apr 2016 #908
yes but you could be a happily married churchgoing lady, pregnant by your first and only husband and with kids already and an ageing parent to care for. You could develop life threatening complications and in your scenario then thats tough luck for the lady and her family, and the arbiters of her fate are not her dependents, but the state.

Furthermore imagine if that lady was a trained policewoman or nurse, education paid for by society.

i am anti abortion but the no exceptions rule is spiteful and naive.
Harry
4 Apr 2016 #909
Are you saying a man ... who gets a woman pregnant during consensual sex should have no rights and no say whatsoever

How surprising to see you putting forward a position which so clearly demonstrates such little thought. If a man who gets a woman pregnant during consensual sex has rights and has a say as to whether his child should live or die, that man is also able to express his belief that she should have an abortion and thus be absolved of all further responsibility when she does not.

BTW, I do like your little homophobic slur, but you appear to be forgetting that homosexual men are at least one thing you clearly are not: honest about their sexuality.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
4 Apr 2016 #910
abortion rights

The "rights" label can be attached to anything and everything from gun rights to Jew-killing rights. Anyway. the pro-abortionist femi-fascists were up to their old tricks on Sunday brandishing disgusting slogans about their uterus (they can keep it!), demadning the "right" to butcher their inborn babies and ranting abuse against anyone who dared disagree. They even disrutped Holy Mass on Divine Mercy Sunday. No scruples, no class, no decorum!
AdrianK9 6 | 369
4 Apr 2016 #911
What being poor has to do with getting pregnant?

I am saying that poor women will have it much more difficult to keep a child. A parent ought to provide clothing, shelter, food, education, medicine - all these cost money. It is much harder for a poor person to provide. Furthermore, a child that is born with some serious birth defect has hardly any quality of life. If the parents cannot afford the costly treatments, psychiatrists, therapies, special schools, and well as constantly being around the child it really makes things difficult - for both the child and the parents. The parents will wonder who will take care of the child once they are gone or simply are too old to work and care for the child. What then, especially if they are middle, lower-middle class Polish family?

I was a fan of the PiS government - I like their economic policies, I'm glad they're being tougher on foreign investors taking advantage of Polish economy, and I'm glad that to see that they wish to give 500 zl to Polish families with more than 2 children.

However, this is a blatant violation of separation of church and state. The only reason they did this is because they control both houses and it's going to be that much more difficult for PO or any future governments to overturn it.

No matter how you look at it, abortion is a necessary evil. You can't fault a woman to terminate a pregnancy that was the result of rape or incest.

Which for the very poor in Poland could be an impossibility.

I know - that's why I am firmly pro-Choice. I identify as a conservative but PiS really went too far with this. The only choices a Polish woman would really have is go to a neighboring country like the Czech Republic where abortions are legal and not as expensive, finding a sympathetic local pro-choice doctor, or buying RU-48 off the black market - which you don't know if it's the real thing or a Chinese/Indian counterfeit with little to no active medicine.

This is a slippery slope. I am a practicing Roman Catholic but I still believe in separation of church and state. What's next - a PiS ban on condoms? How can you guys be totally supportive of this ban yet lambast Iran and other Muslim countries for being theocracies? Poland is already backwards in terms of social services. There is little support for the people on the lowest rungs on society - the alcoholics, the abused woman, the drug addicts who want to get clean, the gays, etc. I don't think pray the vodka/abusive husband/gay away is going to work for the majority of people...

The upper-middle class will be fine with this ban - it won't really matter to them. They can take a train or a plane to a number of local countries and have the procedure performed in a professional setting. This ban is going to hurt the people who need it most - the poor since they won't be able to afford travel and high medical costs.

I really hope that this ban is changed soon.. the last statistic I heard was that around 1900 women have abortions a year in Poland. Seems like a lot of time and money spent on something that only a minor percent of the population participate in... There are much bigger issues at hand - leave the women alone.
johnny reb 28 | 5,307
4 Apr 2016 #912
This ban is going to hurt the people who need it most - the poor since they won't be able to afford travel and high medical costs.

I just read this article which I found fascinating.

A drone loaded with abortion pills is flying to Poland. Activists hope it'll start a trend
Women on the other end of the drop - abortion activists in the fiercely Catholic country - will be waiting to collect the pills at a yet-to be-disclosed location.

Why is it that the government always knows what is better for the people then the people knowing what is better for them?
Ironside 50 | 10,939
4 Apr 2016 #913
I am saying that poor women will have it much more difficult to keep a child.

She doesn't have to keep her child, she can give it up for adoption. It is only too easy nowadays.

A drone loaded with abortion pills is flying to Poland. Activists hope it'll start a trend

Should be arrested for smuggling. Both parties.
johnny reb 28 | 5,307
4 Apr 2016 #914
Should be arrested for smuggling. Both parties.@ Ironside

And the government and church be arrested for inflicting needless pain and suffering on humanity.
Ironside 50 | 10,939
4 Apr 2016 #915
Why bother, brining your views to it logical conclusion it would even better if a few well placed devises should have wiped out all the humanity putting an end to its suffering.

Interesting to see that you support and condone criminal activities.
AdrianK9 6 | 369
4 Apr 2016 #916
Polish women travel to get abortions in other countries:

reuters.com/article/us-poland-abortion-idUSTRE67P46Z20100826

Official statistics show only several hundred abortions are performed every year, but pro-choice campaigners say underground abortions are very common. That's probably where I got that 1,900 abortions a year figure... I'm guessing that is not the correct number seems far too low.

"We estimate... that on average 150,000 abortions are performed per year," Wanda Nowicka, head of the Federation for Women and Family Planning, told lawmakers at a meeting in the Polish parliament on Thursday. This estimate seems a bit more high, but definitely on the right track... 1,900 abortions a year? Maybe for a country with a population of a few million but not 38 million..

An illegal abortion in Poland costs 2,000-4,000 zlotys ($640-$1,270), compared to 400-600 euros ($510-$760) in Germany, 280 euros in the Netherlands and 450-2,000 pounds ($700-$3,120) in Britain, they said. That's a lot of money for an average Pole, let alone a woman that very well could be unemployed/underemployed, unmarried, etc. The upper middle, or even middle class woman will be able to afford these costs.

Here's one from a 'pro-life' website - lifenews.com/2016/04/04/poland-prime-minister-backs-measure-to-protect-unborn-babies-by-banning-all-abortions/

I wonder what would happen if a priest knocked up some girl - this does happen in Poland especially in more rural areas ... would they still be singing pro-life praises or would they want to hide their shame? What about if the PiS guys knocked up their mistress? I'm sure they'd want to keep it hush-hush. All these pro-life guys are so adamant about this topic till one day pull and pray doesn't work out so well for them and they don't want a kid. Then, they're the first ones to think of 'other options.'

Website about a Polish abortion doctor in Germany - discusses the '2 minute' procedure - natemat.pl/110965,polski-lekarz-wykonujacy-aborcje-w-niemczech-to-maly-krotki-zabieg-trwa-dwie-minuty-i-pacjentka-idzie-do-domu

I tried to go on the website stopaborcji.pl but it has a ton of spyware so I had to shut it done.

I'd like to add that I have seen the effects of abortion first hand - it really is a very nasty, disgusting practice especially in later term pregnancies. I use to work for an international medical waste company and some of the more unscrupulous customers of ours and even truck drivers would buy and sell dead fetuses for everything from the placenta, to certain hormones for body builders, to medical research on growing organs, etc. This was a small amount of people involved in this but it did include some people looking to make some side cash at Planned Parenthood. Nonetheless, abortion is a necessary evil. Think of if you got raped by some alcoholic or even a family member, or found out that your child would have a serious medical condition and there's no way you could support him or her on a secretary's salary, let alone provide some half decent quality of life.

When I typed in 'Poland Adoption' this is the second website that came up (the first was a US government site)

saintmaryadoption.com/international-adoption/poland-adoption/

It states 'When you talk to someone at our agency, the information we provide about Poland adoption is based on real experience. That is 16 years of experience and over 190 Polish children placed.'

In 16 years, they had over 190 Polish children placed... doesn't sound like a huge success to me...

On adopt.com, I found that only about 70-110 children from Poland are adopted in the US.

Also, most people want to adopt a healthy baby - not many want to take in a child with Down's Syndrome as it takes up even more time and finances than a normal child.

Doesn't seem like adoption is totally viable Ironside...

What else would you suggest then? An orphanage?
Ironside 50 | 10,939
4 Apr 2016 #917
Polish women travel to get abortions in other countries:

You are bringing forth a lot of immaterial stuff. So what? The same goes for your imaginary priest or PiS this or other.

Doesn't seem like adoption is totally viable Ironside...

Hey, read my stuff I don't support that new law but the current one.

with Down's Syndrome

Well, that is on parents and on their conscience - free will.
AdrianK9 6 | 369
4 Apr 2016 #918
The same goes for your imaginary priest or PiS this or other.

I simply stating if the shoe was on the other foot, these pro-life men would be singing a different tune- or at least privately.

Mitt Romney is one of the most pro-life politicians there is - yet he had huge investments in the company I worked at despite knowing we deal with abortion clinics and they're among out best customers. We have an entire division dedicated to that waste stream.

The problem is this is going to hurt poor women the most - the ones who don't have enough money to travel abroad for an abortion. Your adoption method is totally flawed. So let's even use that government figure of 1,900 abortions a year - which seems way to statistically under reported, but we'll use it anyway. Let's say even 200 of those children get adopted - which would be a rather high figure. That leaves you with 1,700 orphans, children the result of unwanted pregnancies, children the result of rape/incest, and children with health issues and little to no quality of life.

Well, that is on parents and on their conscience - free will.

Exactly. Free will. So leave it up to the woman and her conscience. Let her decide if she is ready or not to raise a child. Let her decide if she has the time and resources to care for a child with Down's. Let her decide if she will go to hell or not after her cousin raped her.

What about the Polish 'materacy' that served as comfort woman to the Nazi's during WW2? Would you let them get abortions?
jon357 66 | 17,040
4 Apr 2016 #919
I wonder what the attitude of the politicians who want to ban abortions would be about a woman or girl who was pregnant by her father, brother, son or grandfather...
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
4 Apr 2016 #920
matters of civil law

Morality, not civil law. Murder is murder whether civil law penalises it or not!
mafketis 24 | 9,374
4 Apr 2016 #921
Abortion =/= murder in the minds of many, probably most, probably almost all people. That's why it's a question of civil law.

About 30 % of all fertilized eggs spontaneously abort, does this mean these women are murderers?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
4 Apr 2016 #922
separation of church and state

There is no separation of church and state in Poland. That reeks of frog-style laïcité. The church and state in Poland, according to the constitution, are sovereign in their respective areas and cooperate for the good of the nation.

spontaneously abort

If you mean accidental miscarriage, then it's not murder, But if a woman purposely does things to miscarry, jumps off a high stool, soaks in an extra-hot bath, punches herself in the abdomen, etc., then she is a murderess pure and simple.
AdrianK9 6 | 369
4 Apr 2016 #923
When you wrote this I assumed you meant abortion in general:

Ironside - Anyway I fail to see logic in the reason given for decriminalization of abortion

Abortion is said to stop a beating heart and it is killing 'life' - I don't think that's the argument. The problem is more the lack of separation of Church and State and a bill that will harm poor women the most for years since PiS controls both houses and it's going to just be that much harder to undo this law in the future.

Murder is murder

I guess my grandma was murdered then. She had cancer and was on her last leg in her mid 80's - bed ridden, going in and out of the hospital, family struggling to pay the medical bills, etc. She got really sick as a result of all the meds, chemo, radiation, etc. she was taking and stated she was ready to go. The doctor gave her a shot of morphine, to make her comfortable upon my grandma's own request. What is more moral - ending a person's suffering upon their request or saying no and further allowing them to suffer because 'morals' tell you that shot of morphine murdered her?
mafketis 24 | 9,374
4 Apr 2016 #924
But if a woman purposely does things to miscarry

So you want to put women who miscarry in prison is you're not satisfied with their behavior. The mask comes off....
AdrianK9 6 | 369
4 Apr 2016 #925
There is no separation of church and state in Poland.

That's the problem. Yet these same individuals that love a church and state union criticize Iran and other Muslim theocracies. This new PiS law would mean that Iran's official stance on abortion is more liberal than Poland's... that's just sad... By the way, Iran's laws are very similar, actually even a bit more liberal, to the 'pre-ban' laws that existed in Poland.

What about condoms? Should PiS and the Catholic Church make that illegal too? I mean that's preventing human life from forming...
jon357 66 | 17,040
4 Apr 2016 #926
They did exactly that in Ireland, and the Church together with certain politicians wanted to do that in Poland after 1989.
Ironside 50 | 10,939
4 Apr 2016 #927
I simply stating if the shoe was on the other foot, these pro-life men would be singing a different tune- or at least privately

Immaterial.

Abortion is said to stop a beating heart and it is killing 'life' - I don't think that's the argument

Nah, the argument is a sanctity of human life. Now, there are some exceptions/instances where that principle can be overruled but only some. However the principle on which the law regulates those issues should be based on the principle of the sanctity of human life.

Also each person is not a lone island, they are part of the society and principles and rules of the society often trumps/limit personal preferences of individuals.
jon357 66 | 17,040
4 Apr 2016 #928
human lif

And this is the issue. The anti-abortionists due to religious influence even believe that a cluster of cells with no brain or central nervous system is 'human life'.

Looks like people are voting with their feet on this one. To paraphrase Smurf, this time they've really dropped a bollock.

theguardian.com/world/video/2016/apr/04/polish-women-walk-out-of-church-service-in-protest-against-abortion-ban-video
Ironside 50 | 10,939
4 Apr 2016 #929
The anti-abortionists due to religious influence even believe that a cluster of cells with no brain or central nervous system is 'human life'.

Better save than sorry, right? After all the pro-abortionists due to ideological influence believe that they can determine in what exactly moment a 'cluster of cells' transform overnight into a proper human being.
jon357 66 | 17,040
4 Apr 2016 #930
Better save than sorry, right?

Right? No, very wrong. Better science than superstition.


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